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Author Topic: When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio  (Read 1805 times)

Offline Elieress

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« on: January 19, 2006, 04:54:59 PM »
I was playing against a woodelf with my skaven army a few days ago... The woodelf happily sniped my two ratlingguns and a lone surviving gutterrunner using the spell Fury of the Forrest...  I just read the spell today, and the wording explicitly says "single unengaged enemy UNIT..."

My question is, when is anything considered to be a unit in warhammer?

A faq item like this from direwolf:
Quote
Q. Can two characters join each other, thus forming a unit? What if
they are mounted on chariots or monsters?

A. Characters may form a unit with each other, only if they are on
foot or a cavalry mount.  Characters mounted on larger creatures and
chariots may not form units at all.  Remember also that characters
on a flying monster may not join a unit of flyers, as described in the
rules for flyers.
S. Warhammer Chronicles 2004 page 112

Would lead me to believe that a single character is not a unit, and is not counted as such before he joins something else... such as another character, an existing unit, or even a monster...

Do you guys have any idea how to interpret the "Unit" thing???
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Offline Elieress

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2006, 05:18:51 PM »
Hmm... Seems I should just keep reading....

Quote

Q. Father of the Thorn is not listed as a "magic missile", its only
requirements for targeting are 24" range and LOS. Can it be cast
upon characters who are within 5" of a unit of five or more similar
sized models?

A. Yes. As it is not a "magic missile", it does not need to conform
to normal targeting rules.
S. Warhammer Chronicles 2004 page 115


Father of thorn also states "Unit"... So it seems a single character is also a unit (of one) that moves as a single character.... or some such nonsense
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Offline Misfratz

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2006, 05:28:19 PM »
Quote from: Elieress
it seems a single character is also a unit (of one) that moves as a single character.... or some such nonsense
It's not really nonsense.  The meaning of the word unit suggest that it is a subdivision of the army.  Thus everything in an army must be considered to be part of one, and only one, unit.  It's just a definitions thing.
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Offline General Helstrom

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2006, 05:50:02 PM »
Also see the bit on units on page 40-41 of the BRB.
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Offline valmir

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2006, 06:13:28 PM »
Related to this, something came up with Ogres recently:

An Ogre Tyrant can take Daemon Killer Scars, which makes it cause Terror.
If he joins a unit of Ironguts, the consensus is that they do not benefit from this in addition.
If a Butcher carrying Brahmir Statue (Chaos and Skaven take all Ld tests caused by the Buthcer or the unit he is with at -3) joins the unit as well, does the -3 extend to the Terror caused by the Tyrant?
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Offline Con El Pueblo

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2006, 06:50:38 PM »
Odd one, that.

I would say no, as the Terror isn't "shared" with the unit, and it isn't the unit as such that causes the opponent to take the Terror test. Difficult to put in English, but I'm pretty sure I could do it in Danish.  :roll:
Is there precedence regarding to Stubborn characters, etc. on this?

On the original subject: Everything on the battlefield are "units".
Warmachines, single heroes, regiments, weapon teams, etc., all are labelled as units.
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Offline valmir

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2006, 08:43:22 PM »
That was my interpretation of the rules, as well. I was just wondering if there was some way of stating, categorically, that this interpretation was 100% correct.
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Offline Pistol Pete

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2006, 09:44:45 PM »
Interestingly enough, my local skaven guy had the same question pop up when we were discussing how to kill his prized ratling guns.  He was not happy when we pointed out that his guns *did* count as units.
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Offline Guvnor

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2006, 09:37:41 AM »
Note that you can do the same thing with other lore of life spells...
Master of Stone and wood both do not follow normal targeting rules.
Ratling guns do count as a unit although they cannot be targetted normally despite having a larger base than other skaven.
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2006, 11:17:03 AM »
Presumably heavens magic can also shoot at ratlings?  As it is not a magic missle, which are the only spells which do have line of sight.

There are a lot of spells you can use to kill ratlings, you just have to look for them!  Burning Head and Conflagration of Doom from fire, Rule of Burning Iron in metal and many others I cant remember without looking at my book, but shadow/death I beleive have some too.
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Offline Elieress

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2006, 12:14:36 PM »
I know that there are a lot of things that can shoot ratlings... a lot of magic has the ability, and for once, our hochland rifle is worth its high price as it can also pick them off...

I just wondered why a single character isnt a unit untill it joins something, but is still a unit for targeting purposes...

Fluffwise I have no problems with the roots of a nearby forrest ripping a warpfirethrower or ratlinggun to pieces... If it wasn't possible, there would be very small chances for anyone to kill those blasted weaponteams...
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2006, 12:44:23 PM »
A single character is a unit on his own.  But he can make a new unit with other characters that function like a regiment.

Its common sense that each individual thing on the table is a unit.  Anyone who says otherwise is just being plain stupid.
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Offline Elieress

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2006, 12:53:57 PM »
Stupid... You might be right... I have thought worse of my self from time to time at any rate... I think my main problem is that I am not a native English speaker...

I only remembered one part of the definition of the word unit as: "A group regarded as a distinct entity within a larger group. " where the word  only has a plural meaning...

forgetting the part: "An individual, group, structure, or other entity regarded as an elementary structural or functional constituent of a whole. "

(both quotes from dictionary.com)

It just annoys me a bit with the dual meanings of so many of the definitions and rules in warhammer... it would just be nice to have some rules that aren't so open to misinterpretations and arguments...
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Offline Crimsonsphinx

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2006, 01:06:58 PM »
If rules are badly worded or ambiguous then a sensible group of gamers can decide what the rules should be.  If they cant, then I wouldn't want to play against them.

Whenever theres a rule that doesn't make sense, or has many meanings our group discusses this before a game or during and comes to a decision which is noted down so it can be used again in future games.

Why cant other people just take the sensible option?  

I didn't mean any offence by calling it stupid, its just that people really amaze me with some interpretations of rules.  Just because it doesn't say specifically what is meant is no reason to try to argue something silly.  Its not sportsmanlike or mature.

Also Elieress, I didn't take into account english wasn't your primary language, sorry.
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Offline Elieress

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2006, 01:16:14 PM »
he he Its all right...

As I said in the first post, the opponent did snipe my units.. We rarely take rules discussions during games, but follow the most sensible path.. Any problems or discussions we try to resolve later by reading what we can get our grubby hands on...

The problem arose when I tried to read an old FAQ posting that hinted that single characters COULD form units...

The first post here was a bit premature as I also say in my second post...

hmm.. Seems this post here is rather redundant... I just felt I had to defend our playing style... We do actually play rather fair and for fun... I just like to read ( and reread a few more times ) whatever I can lay my hands on... and once in a while it seems I get my facts confused...
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Offline BitMaster

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2006, 01:19:45 PM »
Quote from: Crimsonsphinx
If rules are badly worded or ambiguous then a sensible group of gamers can decide what the rules should be.  If they cant, then I wouldn't want to play against them.


This is always a last option. But it should not be done without investing some work into looking into the FAQs or talking with others how they see it and why.

Although I'm only playing among friends, we still try to get to the bottom of it whenever possible (which you usually can). However, that does not change that it's annoying when rules are just badly worded. (Me, I do think the GW designers should be forced to a few semesters of studying math or learning to program. Both should teach them the great value of clear and unambiguous wordings.)

On a more personal side note, Crimson, although I did not go back much in your post history, what I did see of you came over rather arrogantly. Even worse, in some cases arrogant and wrong too. Although I'm myself am often the source of black humour and sarcasm, may I introduce you to my friend Mr Winkyface ( ;) )? I'm sure he would help you.

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2006, 01:45:45 PM »
Arrogant I might seem, but its posts which try to interpret rules as they shouldn't be that annoys me.

On most of my posts I post fairly toned down answers.  I do not try to deliberately annoy people, its not my fault if people disagree with what I say.

If im wrong ill admit it, id apologize, but if there is no actual proof of a rules ironclad existence, or people are trying to make something out of nothing, then sure ill argue that it doesn't matter.

Also, I excersise my right to freedom of speach.  As long as im not derogatory towards people and only expressing opinions on gaming rules I cant see that as being Arrogant.  You might do, but thats not my problem.

Also generally I wont post to say "yes thats right".  Ill only post if I feel I have something to add, rightly or wrongly to a topic.  So its entirely possible that what I say is wrong, but if people can/do prove im wrong then fair enough.
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Offline BitMaster

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2006, 02:04:58 PM »
Quote from: Crimsonsphinx
Arrogant I might seem, but its posts which try to interpret rules as they shouldn't be that annoys me.

You might have to reconsider that not only your opinion counts regarding how things should or should not be.

Quote from: Crimsonsphinx
On most of my posts I post fairly toned down answers.  I do not try to deliberately annoy people, its not my fault if people disagree with what I say.

Disagreement is not a problem. The problem is how the disagreement is put into words.

Quote from: Crimsonsphinx
If im wrong ill admit it, id apologize, but if there is no actual proof of a rules ironclad existence, or people are trying to make something out of nothing, then sure ill argue that it doesn't matter.

I don't think I read anything from you admitting you were wrong about the shield stuff in the other thread.

Quote from: Crimsonsphinx
Also, I excersise my right to freedom of speach.  As long as im not derogatory towards people and only expressing opinions on gaming rules I cant see that as being Arrogant.  You might do, but thats not my problem.

Yeah, you do have your right of free speech (actually, as this is a private server owned by someone you don't get the complete deal, but it does not matter for the purpose of this discussion). I'd like to point out though, that I did not try to forbid you anything. I did point out to you which impression you make on me (and I somehow doubt I'm the only person alive to have it) and that it might offer certain longterm benefits to avoid giving that impression to people.
(On a more personal sidenote, in my internet experience, people who feel the need to explicitely invoke their right of free speech out of the blue to justify their behaviour often have ... let's call it "some issues".)

Quote from: Crimsonsphinx
Also generally I wont post to say "yes thats right".  Ill only post if I feel I have something to add, rightly or wrongly to a topic.  So its entirely possible that what I say is wrong, but if people can/do prove im wrong then fair enough.

Yeah, fair enough. However, what I'm trying to tell you here is that not only facts matter, but also how they are presented and argued. There is a rather big difference between "for this and this reason I do believe it should be done like; also, have a look at these rules over there" and "it's like that. everything else is stupid."

To all others: Sorry. I ended my lurker existence just to post a small response and now it looks like I'm here to pick a fight with Crimson...

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2006, 02:16:45 PM »
I didnt say my opinion was all that mattered.  I said I interpret rules as I beleive they should be.

Seriously I dont want to fight against you.  Im not into that kind of thing.  Ive trained to be a lawyer so by nature im arguementative and have a habit of being forceful in my convictions.

Shield stuff?  I dont beleive I am wrong on that one.  Noone has posted proof that you cant use a shield.  Its a piece of armour.  Banning people from buying a shield because they lack the option for a mundane one is like banning a whitewolf grandmaster from taking the helm of the skavenslayer as normal ww dont wear helmets.  [ok not entirely but you get the idea, i hope]

I appologized to Elieress when I realised I was wrong.  But good natured rule discussion is different from outright accusing me of being arogant.  If you honestly think im being deliberatly offensive then im sorry.  Im also sorry for hijacking this thread.
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Offline BitMaster

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2006, 02:20:54 PM »
Quote from: Crimsonsphinx
Shield stuff?  I dont beleive I am wrong on that one.  Noone has posted proof that you cant use a shield.  Its a piece of armour.  Banning people from buying a shield because they lack the option for a mundane one is like banning a whitewolf grandmaster from taking the helm of the skavenslayer as normal ww dont wear helmets.  [ok not entirely but you get the idea, i hope]


Take a look at that thread again and pay specific attention to perfect depth's response with the link to the official FAQ, will you?

Offline Crimsonsphinx

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2006, 02:33:53 PM »
Ok then it appears that the "official" Faq has said I cant buy a magic shield if im not normally allowed a mundane one.

I however point out that such FAQs are not strictly speaking official as they are not in the rulebook, or any supplements.  Gav Thorpe himself said only things in printed publications are 100% official.  But yes I was wrong.

Even so its not relevant to this thread, where I do believe I didn't make any sweeping incorrect statements about units, other than what is actually true as per the rulebook.
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Offline queek

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When are troops considered a "unit"? Rules questio
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2006, 02:38:22 PM »
the Q&A in question is in Chronicles04, thus in print.  

put the e-penii away, gentlemen, and get back on topic.