Author Topic: Chaos Dwarf Mining Complex (Update 22 2/2/2016) (Read 236723 times)

Marcus Leitdorf · « **on:** October 26, 2006, 10:42:40 PM »

Hey All,

I have invited Teb, the winner in the "Master" category of the conversion contest, to start a dialog about what sort of terrain piece he would want. This is his initial response:

Quote

"I guess it's time for you to claim your prize!"

I guess it is...
Have to admit I have been dreaming about all sorts of gorgeous terrain pieces I could ask if I'd win.
But I honestly didn't expect to win so I hadn't actually bothered yet about the choosing part....
Hence the late reply.

I'm down to two ideas really..

The usefull choice:
A terrain piece that's a real eye candy on the table and can act as a versatile center point...an old abandoned outpost that has been rebuilt. Can be used in many a scenario and by many races without being out of place.
Shouldn't be an impregnable bastion (in practical gaming terms as well in looks)...a stone building with a small watch tower that has been (partly) rebuilt. Fun to use in many situations without giving one side an enormous advantage or simple as a great looking addition on the table.

The original challenge:
One race I've never seen any building of (or even an illustration of one)...Chaos dwarfs.
A Chaos dwarf watch tower! (thinking about the old 2e, 3e edition look, not the big hats)
Practical and sturdy dwarven craft but built with slave labour.
Add an eery evil look and decorations and you've got one hell of an original project.
I've been aspiring to build an old style chaos dwarf army for years now...such a gorgeous centre piece might just give me the inspiration I need.

Tell me what you think...
And I'm more then happy to send/post sketches to give you a better idea of what I'm talking about.

Thanks,
Teb

I thought it would be fun to post the progress of the piece from initial concepts to completed project. Comments and suggestions along the way are welcome. We could find them useful and inspiring.

Teb,

The first idea is similar to a piece I have been contemplating for awhile now. I was thinking along the lines of some High Elf ruins that could have been partially rebuilt/fortified. The layout, as you suggest, could be something defensible, but not insurmountable. We could make it very playable as well as good to look at.

The second idea is just too wild for words!

This could be a lot of fun, but I would certainly need a lot of input along the lines of ideas and conceptual sketches.

Once you decide on some of the basic ideas we will be able to brain-storm a little bit and come up with something that I think you will really enjoy.

Your wish is my command!

Marcus

Teb · « **Reply #1 on:** October 27, 2006, 09:14:04 AM »

Great idea Marcus!
This is gonna be fun

An old High Elf ruin...I hadn't thought of that yet but it would be a perfect choice.
Fluff wise it can be situated anywhere in the old world, most often in some remote but strategically important location. Design-wise it would give an interesting contrast between the old but superior building craft of the elves and the crudely added repairs. Would look stunning and interesting if you could pull that off.

I had a feeling you'd never expect my second idea

Maybe the idea is way too ambitious but I'll post some sketches about what I'm thinking about so you can get a feeling of how practical it would be....and most importantly if it will be fun enough for you to build

Of course any input will be very much appreciated!

Teb

PygmyHippo · « **Reply #2 on:** October 27, 2006, 03:45:19 PM »

Great idea Teb! 2e/3e Chaos Dwarfs would be a great look for a decaying or partially rebuilt stronghold. Looking forward to seeing your sketches, and the back and forth process with MarcusLeitdorf.

Marcus

Marcus Leitdorf · « **Reply #3 on:** November 05, 2006, 03:39:53 AM »

Hey all,

Teb sent me an e-mail recently explaining some important matters at home causing a slight delay in the commencement of this project. What follows is my reply:

No problem Teb. I was thinking about posting a couple of doodles myself.
Something along the lines of the High Elf ruins. The idea of a blend of
Gothic and art nouveau keeps insinuating itself into my thinking.

I have been looking into the fluff for the Chaos Dwarves and discovered that
they are slavers! That could make for a pretty eerie tower of doom. Maybe
something fronting a mine from which no one returns. What about a pair of
towers flanking a gate leading up to the mine? Some slave carts and gibbets
with skeletal remains; possibly a few implements of torture. Dark despair
and all that!

Something with a rampart leading up and down into the mine. Mining machinery
would be interesting. Ancient cranes and lifts and so on.

I had read on the net that the architecture was modeled after ancient
Assyrian/Babylonian forms. That could lead to some interesting
possibilities. One thing you might want to consider is if you want to go
with a more "realistic" look, or something more over the top and outlandish,
some would say cartoonish along the lines of 5th ed.

Does anyone else on the site have any ideas about these two options? Let us hear your input!

Marcus

Guvnor · « **Reply #4 on:** November 05, 2006, 03:48:25 PM »

For the more modern chaos dwarves (the big hat crew) I always thought some towers rather like the St petersburg palaces, or islamic minarets with domes might look good. Rather like their hats.

For the old dwarves, I definitely agree with the babylonian style.

Could you get hold of the dead goblin drummer in the RoR? This would make a great dead slave. The gibbets sound nice, I've made some myself (but with elves danling from them). Would you consider some cages, some for holding slaves, and some like on the chaos terrain (Hordes of chaos army book).

Have you considered what to do for the machinery? The hellcannon could be a point of interest in style, although it is rather too 'chaosy' for my liking.

What I would love would be a big windlass (rather like on old ships) used for hauling stuff, and have some skeletons draped on it. They died working that windlass... and were left there... sinister.

How sinister would you want it to be?

Marcus Leitdorf · « **Reply #5 on:** November 06, 2006, 04:36:35 AM »

Teb is thinking about the pre-big hat dwarves. Of which I know nothing. Here is a recent e-mail he sent me:

You are thinking WAY bigger then me!
I was already drooling by the idea of one tower...but a pair of watchtowers
and a mine or something similar hadn't occurred to me yet. You think you can
fit all that on 12" by 12"?

Chaos dwarfs are maybe one of the most original ideas to come from Games
Workshop and combined with the fact there isn't much information about them
(and will probably not get any attention again in years or even disappear
forever) makes them very interesting to explore. The Assyrian/Babylonian
look is entirely 5th edition.with huge ziggurats, curled beards and bulls
copy pasted out of those cultures. Some love the "big hats" as they are
known . I personally think they went way over the top and made them too
cartoony.
The older 2th, 3th edition fluff and models are much more grim and
chaotic.but I've never been able to find much fluff from that period at all.

I totally agree on a more realistic look.
I was thinking more in the lines of the older 2th/3th edition look and feel
but with some needed realism added. loads of artistic freedom I should say

While I'd love to see what you could do with the chaos dwarf idea the
rebuild high elf ruin could also turn out stunning.
I suggest we'll just keep throwing ideas about both back and forth and then
decide what will be the more interesting build.maybe the other forum members
could help us decide

I'm already working on those sketches and will hopefully post them today.

My reply to Teb:

The 12"x12" size was simply suggested for playability purposes. The size does not matter that much to me as long as it is something that will be fun and interesting to do. The Chaos Dwarf option could be more of a linear piece that could almost bisect the table and also be used as a fantastic backdrop for a Chaos Dwarf army.

I am thinking that the High Elf ruins could be laid out in such a way so as to allow for a defensible posture by one side, but allow room for maneuvering full blocks of infantry in the midst of them. This terrain might be constructed over a few bases instead of just one.

Marcus

Guvnor · « **Reply #6 on:** November 06, 2006, 05:06:51 PM »

Is there a way to find anything on the original chaos dwarves? I must say I like the babylonian/assyrian stuff, but not the big hats.

Check out wiki, its got three backgrounds, and a CD website. Perhaps you could ask there? Actually, don't bother, its trying to sell you stuff on the link.

I've always thought the CD used chaos, but didn't worship it, however it appears this is an 'err' subject.

There isn't anything before 5th ed. I can't find a single thing on 'em. Except a unit got third place in golden demon UK...

rufus sparkfire · « **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2006, 05:15:37 PM »

Old-style chaos dwarfs are just like shorter chaos warriors, except that they are also into odd war machines. You can see the full range on stuff of legends:

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/index.htm

In particular, these:

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20288rcchdwfwms.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20290rcchdwfwms.htm

http://www.solegends.com/citcat912/c20291rcchdwfwms.htm

Mordenkai · « **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2006, 06:03:14 PM »

Hey, those pics Rufus Sparkfire posted brings forward quite a few happy memories from waaay back...!

I actually owned a few of those Chaos Dwarf warmachines!!!! Can you believe it... (I'm getting old).

That was back in the days whan a Wood Elf Wardancer (lvl 25) Lord could have 32 (!!!) attacks by himself...

(Sorry for the OT post... Just got a memory jolt...

)

Best regards,

-Mordenkai

Guvnor · « **Reply #9 on:** November 07, 2006, 04:47:34 PM »

I'm actually not too keen on those chaps. They look like, as rufus said, short chaos warriors. Their machines look very ramshackle, rather like the marauders and beastmen.

borgar · « **Reply #10 on:** November 07, 2006, 07:26:07 PM »

well i gotta say that juggernaught hit my soft spot, love at first fright

so will you still be doing the chaos dwarf watch tower?

John Kline · « **Reply #11 on:** November 08, 2006, 01:08:19 AM »

You can look at Games-Workshop's more modern concept of the chaos dwarves by looking at the ones that come with the hellcannon. Another example was a series of conversions covered in a Canadian White Dwarf supplement in which the Huckish converts several models. If you like I can try to get scans done of the supplement. I really like the idea of the mine entrance / opening. Maybe some creepy chaos monsters coming out of the opening, that or a pair of creepy red eyes peering out. Just some thoughts

Marcus Leitdorf · « **Reply #12 on:** November 08, 2006, 06:49:19 AM »

Hey Teb, and everybody else,

Here are a couple of sketches I did of possibilities for Teb's prize. They aren't very good, but should convey the general idea I have in my head about the two options we have been discussing.

The first is of the HE ruin that has been somewhat reinforced by the empire.

The faint circles at the top of the sketch are musings on the plan of the piece. For the HE ruin I have the idea of a piece with concentric circles culminating in a curtain wall around a watch tower. The wall would still be partially intact, but the front part of the fortification has largely collapsed leaving only the lower portion somewhat intact and the skeletal remains of a gate. The tower itself has collapsed with the upper third toppling over to rest against the wall at an upside down angle. The empire has constructed a watch tower of their own upon the remnants of the original tower. Rough gates have been constructed to fill the void of the original gate. I envision such a piece being made with remnants of outer walls some distance out from the curtain wall. Occasionally old pavers are still visible through the undergrowth. Of course, such a piece would have to have an overgrown look to it.

The second is the gate to a Chaos Dwarf mine.

The small doodle at the top is somewhat of a plan view which shows some of the detail that would be behind the gate. The gate itself is modeled after the Ishtar Gate of ancient Babylon. The idea would be to make it massive and situate it between two arms jutting out from the mountain in which the mine is located. The two towers flanking the gate would be open toward the mine at the upper levels. I envision a couple of large slave powered cranes or lifts located over mine shafts. Before the mouth of the mine would be slave pens and cages with various implements of torture and cruelty for uncooperative slaves. This would be a place of dark misery and despair. I see the landscape as barren and desolate with rocks and scree and sparse vegetation.

Of the two options I am leaning toward the Chaos Dwarf Gate. The opportunity to do something so completely dark would be interesting compared to the relative morality of the Empire. Real nightmare stuff!

So what do you all think?

Marcus

Teb · « **Reply #13 on:** November 08, 2006, 10:48:07 AM »

Finally had some time to finish some sketches....
Here are some mood sketches to give you an idea of what I'm thinking about.
Solid stone..lots of metal parts and reinforcements and a little hint to the Babylonian/Assyrian style with a basic ziggurat-like form. Add some spikes and industrial machines and you have an original "doom and gloom" look without looking too "chaotic"...I hope.

While I like the concept of Chaos dwarfs I think GW has never really exploited this original idea.
Like someone said the old 2th and 3th edition models look like small chaos warriors with wacky machines and the 5th edition big hats are just outright comical.
The Hellcannon and crew show loads of promise...but I think the hellcannon is again overdone with too many demonic faces and covering the whole thing with skulls.

Less is more....

Think classic stubborn dwarfs obsessed with power, add an "the cause justifies the means" attitude...and why shouldn't you use slaves if that speeds up business or try to harness the raw power of chaos. Or at least they think they are controlling chaos...."grey areas" are almost always more fun.

Marcus is definately thinking WAY bigger then me

...I'll try to post a sketch of a HUGE gate with watchtowers soon.

Teb

Marcus Leitdorf · « **Reply #14 on:** November 08, 2006, 02:44:11 PM »

Oh man...

Ohhh MAN...

I really like these two towers Teb. You draw it and I'll build it.

Can I delete my scribbles now?

Marcus

John Kline · « **Reply #15 on:** November 08, 2006, 03:48:41 PM »

I am very impressed with the quality of both your work, and I'm quite pleased to have found it on these forums. I'm amazed time and time again with what people can produce. With those sketches Teb, even I am inspired to make terrain for chaos dwarves. I'm gonna try to post scans of several more chaos dwarf conversions, should have them up by this weekend.

Guvnor · « **Reply #16 on:** November 08, 2006, 09:16:07 PM »

I love both those sketches- although Teb's are more graphics, and Marcus' are plans.

I like what you have done teb, but watch out for the tringular spikes, it starts to look a little 40k orc-like (i.e. 'dags'). Of course, that may be what you want.

Do you want skeletons? They really convey a sense of doom- especially isf they look like they all suddenly died... maybe while trying to shut the gate or something. It will look very mysterious.

I agree that GW never really gave CD what they deserve. It felt like they though that elves had HE and DE, so why not give dwarves a dark version... but they ran out of time and just made short chaos warriors and stuff.

Really, what Teb wants is what the CD should have been, and so does everyone else I imagine.

borgar · « **Reply #17 on:** November 08, 2006, 10:38:03 PM »

Well i dont think skellys will fit in,from what i figure chaos dwarves are still of chaos but in the more industrial-metal style.. and having the stones and walls of a dark grey or even black(ish) would realy set the mood

I'm realy looking forward to this but from what i figgure it needs to look old and abandoned so rust and loads for rust discoloring on the walls and stuff.. try to make the woodwork(if any) to look old,cracked and dryed up.. so cracking up the wood a bit and painting it an a light bleached brown color style will help bring that out..

remember there is no chaos dwarf settlement anywhere that doesnt have a dead black furnace

looking forward to seeing it

rufus sparkfire · « **Reply #18 on:** November 08, 2006, 10:57:58 PM »

I really like that first picture of Teb's - I'd love to see that made as a terrain piece.

Pistol Pete · « **Reply #19 on:** November 10, 2006, 05:38:21 AM »

Wow, this is great stuff!!!

Those moody drawings of Teb's really just capture the dark nature of the CD so beautifully. Might I offer a suggestion? I love the idea of the faces on the towers that Teb drew... why not put one of those on the gatehouse that Markus drew? So that the gate forms the mouth of the face. I think it would look spectacular with a rotten portcullis serving as the "teeth" of the mouth.

You could even put an onion dome over the face to serve as a big hat (just kidding... although it would be fine for the "big hat" Chaos Dwarves it wouldn't suit the hellcannon chaos dwarves too well).

patsy02 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 10, 2006, 02:48:07 PM »

*Runs off to make Teb's tower*

Midaski · « **Reply #21 on:** November 10, 2006, 05:51:37 PM »

Actually if that is a quick sketch from Teb, maybe a 'Drawing' of his should be the next contest prize?

cheaky · « **Reply #22 on:** November 10, 2006, 07:50:18 PM »

Marcus Leitdorf I realy like your idea.

I am considering, after I finish my army display base, to construct something similar to this (HE ruin reinforced by the empire).

Teb · « **Reply #23 on:** November 13, 2006, 11:56:11 AM »

Thanks for all the great replies guys!

Quote

Really, what Teb wants is what the CD should have been, and so does everyone else I imagine.

bingo!

I've used all your advise and made a sketch of a sizable Gate.
This is just a front view but I'm already working on a more complete design....front,side,from above,etc.

I'm not really content with the basic shape...tower in the center and towers on both sides...a bit too simplistic I should think. Any advise or ideas guys?

This big enough for ya Marcus?

About the orc like "dag's"...I'm not to troubled about it. While it's used in 40k I haven't seen it very prominently in fantasy and it's simply an easy way of getting a spiked look without using the arch-typical chaos" spikes. Also it's consistent with a Babylonian/Assyrian style.
To complete the evil and menacing look I Imagine the stones to be very dark or even black...with brass or bronze for all the metal (rusted of course)
Skeletons are always cool! But I wouldn't overdo it or just place em everywhere. They should have a purpose...to act as reminders for slaves what happens if they don't obey

I'm off to make some more sketches

Teb

Marcus Leitdorf · « **Reply #24 on:** November 13, 2006, 11:13:58 PM »

Ok, this is cool. I can do this.

Develop ideas for the back side, because I want it to be finished all around. Also, you need to determine the primary purpose of the piece. Is it to be playable, or simply an army backdrop/showcase.

Do you want it rising up menacingly from a plane before a mountain range, or situated between the arms of a mountain leading up to a mine? The basic shape is very appealing to me. Try sketching in rocky outcrops trailing away from the sides as if it were between a naturally defensible position and see what that does for you. I can do rocks and cliff faces with no problem at all.

I could certainly do it in black or very dark colors. I was thinking more along the lines of the reds and dark umbers of Monument Valley in the American Southwest. That is just a suggestion; the choice is obviously yours.

Marcus

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Author Topic: Chaos Dwarf Mining Complex (Update 22 2/2/2016) (Read 236723 times)