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Author Topic: Empire Magic Items to Discard  (Read 13499 times)

Offline Odominus

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Empire Magic Items to Discard
« on: May 12, 2009, 05:13:48 AM »
I've seen wishlist threads where changes to existing magic items have been discussed. Suggested changes were bound power levels, power increases, point costs, etc. When the new edition Empire AB is released, I am sure we will lose a few magic items to make room for new ones. What I would like to discuss is which of Empire's current magic items would you like to see go away. For whatever reason. Does it seem overpriced? Underpowered? Doesn't have a true fluffy Empire feel, or just flat out useless?

I would personally like to start with the Orb of Thunder. I have never taken this item. Its benefits seem way too limited considering what you would have to sacrifice to get it. And at bound lvl 4 it is easily dispelled. Not too mention I normally take a capt on a pegasus. I could totally get behind this item going away in the chance Empire may get a better replacement.

If you wish to counterpoint my choice, that is fine. Good debate is encouraged :biggriin:
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Offline Helgrim

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2009, 09:21:24 AM »
Orb of thunder is great.........in bigger battles! It's best use is at the for drawing out dispel dice as well as providing easy protection for your war machines. See that big nasty blood thirster flying round, setting up flank charges? well with ood timing of the orb, that blood thirster can become jam!

On a note to discard, although it may be blasphemy, the bloody runefang! either make it the weapon of legend or don't include due to being too powerful to represent!

Offline Merrick

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2009, 10:52:39 AM »
That bloody Banner of Duty......

I think that's the one. Useless piece of cloth.

Offline patsy02

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2009, 11:44:01 AM »
Banner of duty should be like a 5 point dispel scroll of banners, available to any unit that can take std. bearers. :icon_razz:

I don't think it's necessary to remove an item completely, there is always a way to fix an item and make it useful.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2009, 11:58:16 AM »
I too have found the Orb of Thunder to be very useful, since I don't habitually take flying monsters in my Empire Army.  I really like it for grounding annoying fliers, such as Fell Bats, which have a habit of chasing after artillery crew, so I don't see any reason not to keep it in the next Empire book.
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Offline patsy02

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2009, 01:00:46 PM »
If you get it off, the orb is great fun against tomb king carrions. Nothing like seeing those things shuffling along with a 2" move.
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Offline t12161991

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2009, 01:50:08 PM »
Divide the items into sections. Change at most 20% of each section. That's an upper limit, and you don't have to change any if you want.

But that's about the most that GW changes between army books...
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2009, 02:20:18 PM »
I dunno about discard, but the whole Banner section needs a rewrite. Each time I look down the list of banners to take I end up at "so, Battle Banner it is then"

They are simply too expensive for what they do
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Offline Toro_Blanco

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2009, 05:12:54 PM »
On a note to discard, although it may be blasphemy, the bloody runefang! either make it the weapon of legend or don't include due to being too powerful to represent!

I wouldn't say it's blasphemy, I think we just need to tweak the General of the Empire.

Maybe make the runefang an UPGRADE for him, then let him buy 100 points of items.  It's not that the runefang is overpriced, to me, it's just not worth sacrificing the other improvements he could get by buying other things instead.
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Offline Odominus

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2009, 05:28:28 PM »
If I knew who I was facing beforehand, the OOT "might" be an option. But as I play 99% of the time in tournys, I usually have to build a list to face all comers and the OOT just isn't viable in these situations.
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Offline ZehKaiser

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2009, 07:50:35 PM »
I just have to chime in and say that

A. The Griffon Standard should go back to 50 points.  No question about it.

B. The Orb of Thunder is amazing. If you are going for a bound spam in a tournament setting it is indispensible. I guarantee that most of the armies you'll face in a tournament setting will have fliers, AND the opponent will consider them indispensable to their plan.  Therefore, even if the damn orb never works, you can bet you're gonna suck 1-2 DD every time.  Its beautiful.
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Offline wissenlander

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2009, 09:20:24 PM »
There was an actual 'valid' reason the Griffon banner changed point value.  It was about the only banner used by Imperial generals, it was that great of a bargain.  To make it not so lopsided in its use, most of the other banners need to be improved somehow, or it'll be back to the way it was in 6th.
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Offline ZehKaiser

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2009, 09:50:09 PM »
There was an actual 'valid' reason the Griffon banner changed point value.  It was about the only banner used by Imperial generals, it was that great of a bargain.  To make it not so lopsided in its use, most of the other banners need to be improved somehow, or it'll be back to the way it was in 6th.

I completely agree. In 6th it was too good not to take. But I would also say that 7th has more powerful units/items/armies, and so it has lost power relative to the rest of the game in 7th. It isn't as broken now as it was. Because of this I think it should go back to 50.

Its an item that at 50 you will likely always take, but at 55 nobody ever takes. I think that the same number of people take it today at 55pts as did not take it at 50 last edition.  If it is either always or never taken then I vote for always. Basically they got their editions backwards. It should have been 55 in 6th and should have been 50 in 7th and it would have been balanced.
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Offline jturner

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2009, 12:22:32 AM »
what is the valid reason for taking away the only useful banner we had available for the 'core troop' option? So fine, up the point value...but let one unit of state troops take a banner of 'any point value' except the imperial banner or the emperors banner....something like that.

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Offline Warlord

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2009, 04:14:48 AM »
Ok, If the General allows all units of state troops to take magic banners up to 50pts, we would need some good cheap banners.

Banner of Duty should be removed, or changed to something very different and useful.
Griffon Banner AND Banner of Sigismund should both be 50pts.

Steel Standard should rop to 15pts
Banner of the Daemonslayer DEFINITELY needs to be dropped or fixed.

Ok, enough about banners.

Of the items we have that need to be dropped / fixed:
Jade Amulet - overpriced
Bronze Shield - overpriced / useless
Crimson Amulet - useless
Wymslayer Sword - generally not as good as Sword of Might - very odd occasions is it better, but not enough

The rest just need their prices re-examined. Is it just me, or does GW traditionally price magic items poorly for their utility?
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Offline t12161991

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2009, 04:20:04 AM »
You may find this handy when repricing things. Handy in general actually.

Flammable = -10
Stupidity= -10
Fear= 25
Terror= 50
Regen=30
MR(1)= 15 (additional for each additional point)
Ward Save +1= 15
Armor save +1= 5
Wizard= 50
+ Magic level= 35
+1 to hit= 25
-1 to hit= 20
reroll missed hits= 10
reroll wounds= 20
+1 to cast= 30
+1 to dispel= 35
+ 1 PD= 25
+1 DD= 30
Fly= 50
ignore difficult terrain= 50
ASF= 25
know all spells from a lore= 25

+ M = 5
+ WS =10
+ BS =10
+S = 20
+ T = 25
+ W = 40
+ I = 5
+ A = 20
+ LD = 5
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2009, 04:29:56 AM »
But where did you acquire such a list?

GW don't use one - they may look like they do, but really its a case of 'look and feel' first rather than any maths.
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Offline t12161991

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2009, 04:33:16 AM »
I made it.

Try it out on something, starting with the base trooper.

Ex. Wood Elf Spellsinger is 90 points base. A Glade Guard is 12. 12 + 90 (1W and wizard) is 102. 100 without some special rules.

You'll be pretty darn close to what it "should" be.

By no means a be all end all, but if you aren't sure, it can give you a general range.
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Offline Helgrim

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2009, 10:25:06 AM »
30 points for regen? sold!!

Offline Obi

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2009, 02:22:25 PM »
A. The Griffon Standard should go back to 50 points.  No question about it.
No it shouldn't. State troops should have a magic items allowment to take the banner- but it's too good to be 50 pts.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2009, 02:36:29 PM »
The Griffon banner wasn't too good for fifty points. It was good, certainly - especially towards the start of sixth edition when infantry was more useful. But these days? Even at fifty points and usable by units, it's quite tame.


The Runefang needs to cost 30 to 40 points, and have a different ability. Perhaps its old power of ignoring armor saves only (we'll skip the double wounds against undead, which was an odd choice). Then it might actually be usable.


The Helm of the Skaven Slayer needs to be sorted out too. Nice concept, horrible price.
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2009, 02:42:51 PM »
Too good for  50 points, not sure I agree.

It can only be used by troops in deep formation, the moment a rank is lost its benefit plummets

Our troops are very flimsy and are easy to remove ranks

Against "death star" units it might actually give a chance of winning on CR

After fighting chaos knights on their "hit on 3+, kill on 2+ and 20 attacks on the charge" that +3 CR is about the only chance you stand.

But yes, given the other flag options, its a no brainer - but then now all I ever do is take the war banner, so whats the difference?
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Offline Rodman49

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2009, 08:48:40 AM »
Griffon Banner AND Banner of Sigismund should both be 50pts.

I agree with this suggestion.

Offline Helgrim

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2009, 10:58:48 AM »

Against "death star" units it might actually give a chance of winning on CR

After fighting chaos knights on their "hit on 3+, kill on 2+ and 20 attacks on the charge" that +3 CR is about the only chance you stand.



I don't see why units should? That deathstar or whatever probably cost 2-3 times more than the unit it is trying to destroy.

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: Empire Magic Items to Discard
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2009, 03:38:55 AM »
How about we let the Orb of Thunder cast Uranon's Forked Lightning...or bring back Storm of Cronos? :P Something to make it actually zap foes...zappy zap. Boom.

Maybe make the bronze shield have a 4+ ward save until the first save is failed?