Author Topic: Reiters (Read 20957 times)

MagicJuggler · « **Reply #25 on:** June 04, 2009, 11:44:46 PM »

So steam tanks and gyrocopters are ok but repeater rifles and single-shot carbines aren't?

t12161991 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 05, 2009, 12:05:38 AM »

No, but those have been around for ages (as have the other things), and are rather iconic of their respective armies.

So, not going away anytime soon (however much I'd like them to).

Uryens de Crux · « **Reply #27 on:** June 05, 2009, 11:46:28 AM »

Actually I hate steamtanks too

But yeah, they have both been around since 3rd ed and so I will have to live with them

Repeater handguns, per se, I have no issue with - when given to champions and heroes.

An entire unit with them is madness. And if they can give them to outriders, why not give them to normal handgunners first?

Perforated · « **Reply #28 on:** June 05, 2009, 02:13:22 PM »

Quote from: Uryens de Crux on June 05, 2009, 11:46:28 AM

Actually I hate steamtanks too

But yeah, they have both been around since 3rd ed and so I will have to live with them

Repeater handguns, per se, I have no issue with - when given to champions and heroes.

An entire unit with them is madness. And if they can give them to outriders, why not give them to normal handgunners first?

Because normal hand gunners are rabble when compared the more elite Outriders. I for one do not think that Outriders come close to being unbalanced. Had the old 6th edition rule with move AND fire for repeaters still been in effect it would have been a completely different matter.

As for steam tanks and carbines. I wouldn't mind a specialist unit/skirmisher to be able to use some primitive form of breech loader. shorter range but the same punch as a handgun, or as a bow with AP. Actually I've been thinking about this as a possible conversion for archers.

And let's not forget, this is a fantasy game, not a historical analouge. However, the robohorse must go!

Uryens de Crux · « **Reply #29 on:** June 05, 2009, 02:40:10 PM »

Yeah, I know its a fantasy game, so a lot of stuff I can happily accept, I just really think the outriders are massivly over the top, for a lot of reasons they just offend me like few other aspects of the game do.

I think the key is they gave a hero upgrade to a whole unit, wrong, wrong, wrong

Or - gave that same upgrade to a handgunner unit and make up whatever fluff you want - why not have an entire unit of HLRs on foot instead?

Perforated · « **Reply #30 on:** June 05, 2009, 02:47:30 PM »

Quote from: Uryens de Crux on June 05, 2009, 02:40:10 PM

Yeah, I know its a fantasy game, so a lot of stuff I can happily accept, I just really think the outriders are massivly over the top, for a lot of reasons they just offend me like few other aspects of the game do.

I think the key is they gave a hero upgrade to a whole unit, wrong, wrong, wrong

Or - gave that same upgrade to a handgunner unit and make up whatever fluff you want - why not have an entire unit of HLRs on foot instead?

Come on now, what is so 'over the top' with the Outriders? Yes, they use somewhat outlandish weapons when compared to normal troopers. But remember the repeater is a champion upgrade, and Outriders represent just that, more skilled and experienced gunners who have acheived a level high enough to allow the access to more advanced weaponry. And there are historic precedents to repeater rifles.

Uryens de Crux · « **Reply #31 on:** June 05, 2009, 03:00:02 PM »

There are historic precedents with repeater rifles, they were made in increadibly small numbers and increadibly rare

I had no problem when only unit champions and heros could get them, the moment they gave them to units, they just made it wrong

And as I said, why not give them to an elite, hand picked unit of handgunners? you know, chosen men type thing (or give them HLRs

)

Over the top? potentially 30 handgun shots in a 360 degree fire arc? all at short range in turn 2?

Padre · « **Reply #32 on:** June 05, 2009, 03:25:21 PM »

Quote from: Uryens de Crux on June 05, 2009, 03:00:02 PM

Over the top? potentially 30 handgun shots in a 360 degree fire arc? all at short range in turn 2?

This probably wasn't your intention, but ... they do what?

I want some! Woo hoo!

t12161991 · « **Reply #33 on:** June 05, 2009, 05:56:37 PM »

Don't forget the BS4!

Inarticulate · « **Reply #34 on:** June 19, 2009, 02:53:32 PM »

How about Air guns? (not strictly within the time period but its fairly close) Move and fire non-armour piercing hand guns.

Historically they could fire 20 rounds a minute with the rounds able to go through a wooden board at 100 paces.

*Plink* *Plink*

Would love to see them on skirmishers, I've got plans to convert some archers to use some air guns with bow stats.

MagicJuggler · « **Reply #35 on:** June 20, 2009, 02:30:52 AM »

And just to be fair, give them the "reliable" stat akin to Skaven. Any double-1 rolls to hit result in an automatic wound inflicted, representing an oxygen canister bursting/exploding. Move and fire could be nice, that or giving it improved range or the option to shoot from in cover while the user was on foot, etc.

Inarticulate · « **Reply #36 on:** June 21, 2009, 12:11:43 AM »

Quote from: MagicJuggler on June 20, 2009, 02:30:52 AM

And just to be fair, give them the "reliable" stat akin to Skaven. Any double-1 rolls to hit result in an automatic wound inflicted, representing an oxygen canister bursting/exploding. Move and fire could be nice, that or giving it improved range or the option to shoot from in cover while the user was on foot, etc.

Sounds good to me

Wolfsgaum · « **Reply #37 on:** July 02, 2009, 04:15:36 PM »

Quote from: t12161991 on May 28, 2009, 08:33:26 PM

Late 14th century?!

No... no they weren't. Carbines were defintely during the Civil War, though I'm not quite sure when effective breechloading technology was developed, it was definitely not in the 14th century.

EDIT: After checking, it was indeed the ferguson rifle. All the same, my point stands.

All a carbine is is a gun that is longer than a pistol and shorter than a musket/rifle. Whether its breech loading or not is irrelevant.

t12161991 · « **Reply #38 on:** July 02, 2009, 04:54:32 PM »

Breechloading made carbines actually practical though.

Inarticulate · « **Reply #39 on:** July 02, 2009, 08:32:21 PM »

But Carbines aren't necessarily all Breech loaded or muzzle loaded. I think he was referring to them in general.

t12161991 · « **Reply #40 on:** July 02, 2009, 10:19:25 PM »

True.

But in the early period of firearm use, rate of fire was all. Breechloading allowed carbines to match the rate of fire of infantry rifles (yes, I know, they didn't technically use rifles).

Wolfsgaum · « **Reply #41 on:** July 02, 2009, 11:24:42 PM »

Quote from: t12161991 on July 02, 2009, 10:19:25 PM

True.

But in the early period of firearm use, rate of fire was all. Breechloading allowed carbines to match the rate of fire of infantry rifles (yes, I know, they didn't technically use rifles).

Rate of fire was important but carbine armed cavalry have been around since at least the mid 1500's.

The question for us is how a carbine would be represented in Warhammer. Longer ranged than a pistol but shorter than a handgun? What's the point? Why bother with carbines when you've got cavalry with repeater handguns?

Finlay · « **Reply #42 on:** July 02, 2009, 11:45:48 PM »

to say outriders are overbalanced when they struggle to find a place in peoples armies is kinda hilarious.

MagicJuggler · « **Reply #43 on:** July 03, 2009, 09:05:37 PM »

Quote from: Wolfsgaum on July 02, 2009, 11:24:42 PM

Quote from: t12161991 on July 02, 2009, 10:19:25 PM
True.

But in the early period of firearm use, rate of fire was all. Breechloading allowed carbines to match the rate of fire of infantry rifles (yes, I know, they didn't technically use rifles).

Rate of fire was important but carbine armed cavalry have been around since at least the mid 1500's.

The question for us is how a carbine would be represented in Warhammer. Longer ranged than a pistol but shorter than a handgun? What's the point? Why bother with carbines when you've got cavalry with repeater handguns?

The idea would be a Carbine has more range than the pistol, less than the handgun. It can move and shoot, but takes penalties for moving and range (as opposed to a pistol which does not).

t12161991 · « **Reply #44 on:** July 10, 2009, 01:28:44 AM »

If it has a 16" range, I'm fine with it.

But lets just remember KISS...

Uryens de Crux · « **Reply #45 on:** July 13, 2009, 11:32:33 AM »

Quote from: Finlay on July 02, 2009, 11:45:48 PM

to say outriders are overbalanced when they struggle to find a place in peoples armies is kinda hilarious.

They do?

Not on this forum, almost every suggested army list I see on here is "Stanks, AL on Popemobile, 2 WP, outriders."

Folken · « **Reply #46 on:** July 16, 2009, 05:10:41 PM »

Hardly, I find outriders too much of a liability and would take pistoliers over then anyday. If I want a 360 gunnery platform I take a hellblaster that won't cost me a special choice.

MagicJuggler · « **Reply #47 on:** July 20, 2009, 03:17:25 PM »

Except for the good 42% chance of a miscast each turn...seeing a hellblaster die on turn 1 does tend to make you hate said choice...then again, I like to use outriders for threatening opponent's flanks/setting up crossfires; were I to have outriders capable of using the carbine I suggested though, I would be in gaming heaven as I could use them alternately as pistoliers or outriders, but being inferior to both.

der Hurenwiebel · « **Reply #48 on:** August 19, 2009, 11:01:06 AM »

move or shoot except in the first turn that they do shoot. Since it is hardly unreasonable to think that they didn't load thier weapons before the battle.

MagicJuggler · « **Reply #49 on:** December 24, 2009, 10:46:32 PM »

This is a suggested modification as a result of prior discussions.

Reiter: WS 3, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, Ld 7, Sv 5+, A 1.
Outrider: WS 3, BS 4, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, Ld 8, Sv 5+, A 1
Freelancer: WS 4, BS 3, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, Ld 8, Sv 5+, A 2
Equipment: Horse, Light Armor
Points cost: 13-model. The unit must contain a minimum of 5 models.
Options: One model may be upgraded to a Musician for 7 points. The unit may replace a Reiter with either an Outrider or Freelancer (but not both) for +7 points. The unit may take either crossbows at 2 pts a model, handguns or pistols at 3 points a model, musketoons at 4 points a model, or a brace of pistols at 5 points a model; if the unit has an Outrider, it MUST take a brace of pistols and cannot take any more weapon upgrades. A unit that does not take a brace of pistols may take shields at 1 pt a model. The unit may take heavy armor at 2 points a model; should either shields or armor be taken, the unit ceases to be fast cavalry. The unit may take spears at 1 pt a model, or lances at 2 pts a model.
An Outrider may replace one or both of its pistols with Repeater Pistols at +5 points each. Alternatively, it may upgrade a handgun or musketoon to a repeater handgun or repeater musketoon (respectively) for +5 points.

News:

Author Topic: Reiters (Read 20957 times)