Topic: 2k TVI-like list for local play

[Phlash]

Hi

This is an attempt to make a standard army for pickup play, and for those times when you just don't have the time to properly design a list.

I have read, and reread, and loved the TVI tactica in the warroom. The fundamental principle of letting the big blocks do the talking, and having the rest of the army be support appealed to my sense of empire very much. So this is the basic design principle of this list.

Some notes on spearmen vs. swordsmen. The common wisdom holds that swordsmen are better than spearmen in general. I believe this was indeed the case a while back, but not any longer. Against a WS 5 opponent, the spearman has exactly the same survivability as a swordsman, if he does not use the spear. So the option of the spear is essentially free. And now many popular armies have WS 5 on their basic combat troops.

My ordinary opponents will be playing High Elves and Demons. Warriors of Chaos and Dark elves have also been known to make an appearance, and the rare pickup game could be against everything.

I am interested in use cases and changes to the army. I will deploy it something like

                    A A A A A A           A A A A A A
                      SSSBS        GGWGG        SASSS
                      SSSBS        GGGGG         SASSS
KKKKKK SSS SSSSS SSS GGGGG SSS SSSSS SSS KKKAKK
KKKKKK SSS SSSSS SSS GGGGG SSS SSSSS SSS KKKAKK
              SSS SSSSS SSS               SSS SSSSS SSS



On to the army

Characters
Arch Lector <-- Goes with spearmen
Barded warhorse, shield
Dawn armour (1++)
Shroud of Magnus (5+ ward, MR2)
Sword of Battle (+1A)
249

Warrior priest <-- Goes with greatswords
Great weapon
Armour of meteoric iron (1+)
Icon of magnus
144

Battle standard bearer <-- Goes with swordmen
Barded warhorse, fullplate (2+)
Banner of stubborn
157

Wizard <-- goes with knights, lore unknown, input needed
Barded warhorse (5+)
Van horstmans speculum
Wizards staff (so he can use the 3 powerdice i have)
Biting blade (5 spare points)
134


Core
23 swordmen, fc
9 swordsmen detachment
6 archers detachment
265

23 spearmen, fc
9 swordsmen detachment
6 archers detachment
260

5 knights, musician
123

6 knights
138

Special
19 Greatswords, FC
9 swordsmen detachment
9 swordsmen detachment
338

Great cannon
100

Great cannon
100

Rare
N/A

Total
1998
Power dice: 3, and 3 prayers
Dispel dice: 6, but no scrolls

Now, give me your comments

[chadgamer]

Nice list. I personally would get rid of the entire Greatswords unit. They don't generate any more combat res than your other core units, and if you are going to use TVI tactics, then Stubborn should never be needed, because your main blocks will nearly always win combat. With the points that you get from this, I'd shave off a few more, and consider getting a Walter(it gives you a much needed unbreakable unit, with the ability to kill enemy generals). If you don't want the Walter, then I would say Flagellants, maybe two units of 15, they can take/give/counter charge effectively, and they are unbreakable which is very useful for the Empire.

If you get the Walter, I would try to find points to upgrade your wizard to lv2, and give him the RoP, which gives you up to 9 dispel dice or up to 7 casting. otherwise, I would make him a scroll caddy.

If you would rather stick as close as possible to TVI tactics, then your list just about nails it(except that the wizard needs to be a scroll caddy).

[Phlash]

Thank you 

I feel you about the greatswords. They are a mighty point sink, somewhat short of 500 pts with the attached warrior priest.
I have realised that the sketched deployment is wrong. The greatswords should be on one flank, and some terrain/table edge on the other. Stubborn makes them flank guards, not center piece unit.
On this forum I have been hearing good things about that specific warrior priest in greatswords, but I must admit I have never tried it. Flagellants are a new, but in the three games so far, very successful unit. I am undecided.

I also feel you on the Walter. But no to that one. Whereas the Walter is a most effective unit, it is like using a special character. It should not be in every list, there must be more rank and file armies.

About the wizard. This is my first game without the Rod of Power. But I feel very vulnerable without the speculum somewhere, and the wizard carries it so admirably. The wizard staff is just so that I can throw all my 3 dice into his one spell.
No scrolls, even with 6 dispel dice, is potentially painful. But this wizard is not dead-weight against a magic-low opponent. But there, my many dispel dice are wasted, and they could be used with the Rod of Power. I am undecided.

So, your advice boils down to.
1. 2x Flagellants rather than greatswords
2. Rod of Power and lvl 2 on the wizard

Many thanks for highlighting these points. They will be taken into consideration.

Now, about the wizard. If the current combo is maintained, should I run him mounted? On foot, there is always the lore of beasts, which might prove very useful. He could nest in the greatswords, or one of the other squares.

[chadgamer]

You are correct, that WP build is very effective(in Greatswords or any other Empire block). However, I must stress something I pointed out it my last post. Drop the Knight units down to 5 and take off the musicians if you have them, and with those points, increase your main blocks to 25(23 or 24 if they are going to have a hero inside). This, IMHO, is a must, if you want a rank and file army.

As you said, the Greatswords(if you keep them) are flank guards, and switching out one detachment of swordsmen for archers would be much more effective.                             

I still think you should either make the wizard lv2 with the RoP, or lv1 with two scrolls.

If you do change your wizard out, give the Arch Lector VHS, Dawn Armour, and  the White Cloak. He will still get a 1+ rerollable armour save and a 5+ ward(2+ against flaming). But now he has VHS.

[Phlash]

Here goes the modified list, for general perusal


Deployment

                A A A A A A  A A A A A A   A A A A A A
                      SSSAS   SSBSS        GGWGG
                      SSSAS   SSBSS        GGGGG
KKKKK   SSS SSSSS    SSSSS SSS GGGGG SSS KKKKK
KKKKK   SSS SSSSS    SSSSS SSS GGGGG SSS KKKKK
              SSS SSSSS    SSSSS SSS GGGGG SSS



On to the army

Characters
Arch Lector <-- Goes with spearmen
Barded warhorse, shield
Dawn armour (1++)
White cloak (5+ ward, 2+ vs. fire)
Van Horstmans speculum (-200 WPS)
249

Warrior priest <-- Goes with greatswords
Great weapon
Armour of meteoric iron (1+) (-100 WPS)
Icon of magnus
144

Battle standard bearer <-- Goes with swordmen
Barded warhorse, fullplate (2+)
Griffon standard
152

Wizard (lore of beasts)
lvl 2
Rod of Power (-100 WPS)
Ring of Volans (lore of shadows)
150


Core
23 swordmen, fc (25 with attached char) (+280 WPS)
9 swordsmen detachment (+54 WPS)
6 archers detachment (+48 WPS)
265

23 spearmen, fc (25 with attached char) (+270 WPS)
9 swordsmen detachment (+54 WPS)
6 archers detachment
260

5 knights
115

5 knights
115

Special
19 Greatswords, FC (20 with attached char) (+460 WPS)
9 swordsmen detachment (+54 WPS)
6 archers detachment (-100 WPS)
329

Great cannon
100

Great cannon (-50 WPS)
100

Rare
N/A

Total
1979
Power dice: 4, and 3 prayers (-200 WPS)
Dispel dice: 6, but no scrolls (-100 WPS)
WPS total: 3370

[Mikael.K]

What comp system is that? Looks like the atlantis one.

[Phlash]

It is the one discussed here. I do not use it, but I would like to see how my army scored
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=29848.0


I played a game against High Elves, and got massacred. My dice were not hot, but still, in retrospect, I believe the result was given.

It was a nice high elf list

From left to right
2 eagles
Dragon Princes
spearblock
10 swordmasters
10 white lions
spearblock
10 white lions
2 eagles.

Basically, the white lions flank, supported by a lord and a hero was enough to break my greatsword flank. The  bsb was assasinated by swordmasters, and that took the stability out of my line. Combined with some hot dice on ASF WS5+ S6 elves. and breaktests ensured.

If I had managed to break the other flank, then perhaps I could have done something. But here the elves held on, by the skin of their teeth, and managed to hold me until the rest of the army could help them.

I feel that this battle to some extent shows the problems with the TVI tactica. Against a hard line, the opponent will hit it hard in one point. For the line, which have to distribute leadership and combat potential about equal, this will probably lead to a breakthrough. And with the line broken, the rest will be rolled up. The TVI approach is based on the assumption that the +6 or so CR from the block is about what is needed to win. But 5 white lions and a lord with greatweapons, and a banner will generate about that much CR, in to form of kills. And if you do not get that crucial flank charge with detatchments, due to some clever manouvering, you are lost.

Still, the really crucial part was the assasination of my BSB. With him, the stubborn greatswords would probably have held. And with him alive, the swordmasters would have crumbled faster, which would have freed the swordsmen to help against other threats.


The magic phase was alright. I got crows feast, wolfs hunt, and creeping death in the ring. Hammer of Sigmar on the warrior priest is hard, and soulfire is golden. But to put more pressure on the enemy, having to shooters to bless would be better. Getting a longrifle would perhaps alliviate much of my problems, in that he would have taken out the nasty swordmaster champ.

The cannons really did not impress. There was four eagles. We intercepted two of these with archers. The remaining went for the cannons. Each cannon had a clean shot on their eagle. Each hit. Each failed to wound. I did not mourn their loss.

What would be your suggestions for changing the list or the strategies to prevent a repeat of this defeat?

[Mikael.K]

You had some bad luck there. With average luck those two birdies should have died. His list is friendly aswell, but 4 eagles is pretty nasty. They do a great job in putting enemy units where you want them. You are also correct about the TVI problem. Most armies these days have units that can dish out huge ammounts of attacks and these units win combats by sheer ammount of kills.

What you should try to do is target selection. Dragon princes/swordmasters/eagles, in  that order. The cannons can snipe away at the eagles from the start since the cannons wont have good targets in those MSU units. White lions you should be able to handle in a straight fight since they lack the ammount of attacks. Stubborn and the general was what tipped the balance here.

Your list has a comp of 17, which is very friendly. Do you guys have any minimum level regarding this? If not, you could try to work a war altar and a helblaster into the list. Or perhaps get pistolliers/outriders instead of those greatswords?

If you want hochlands, then get 2-3 of them so at least something hit. Outrider champions are ideal for this due to their great BS.

[Nicholas Bies]

Swordsmen are always better then spearmen, it's not just about their survivability, they're WS4, which you discount, but they'er also I4 which can be very important.

If you manage to win combat against elves then you will strike first while your spears will always strike last.

Also spears get a 5+ save while swords get a 4+ in combat. and thats if you give spearmen shields in which case they cost the same and your spears don't get any of the bonuses.

Not that it seems to matter but I'd personally take Halberds over spears- it's a mans game afterall.

[Phlash]

My list scored about 3300. His scored about 3900, meaning that I was the evil cheeser here. We do not use comp scores, we just make armies that play nice. This might hinder me more than it does him, but still. I dislike the feel of the war alter, and to a lesser extend the steam tank.

Having real guidelines about target selection is a good idea. As it happened, I followed those guidelines. The dragonprinces was engaged with knights, and grinded away happily for something like 5 turns in their own private struggle. The eagles were sniped and intercepted but that was not enough to protect the cannons. The swordmasters ate a nasty creeping death which killed 6 out of 10. Of course, the champ with that amulet of reroll everything was quite enough to finish my BSB afterwards. He really deserves a hochland to the face.

White Lions are not that handable, as a matter of fact. Yes, you are quite right that it was the characters  that tipped the balance. But without them, the stubborn and consistent ASF S6 hits tend to grind things down. S6 eats 4+ armour saves, so thos detachments in the flank soon fall below US5. Still, they should be doable, well they have to be. It does not get any nicer than a white lion in a high elf list anyhow.
He did not use the battle banner. As it turned out, he did not NEED it to break the blocks (yes, I am bitter...

I ditched the helblaster after the 7th edition nerf. I might have been mistaken there, and one will find it's way back. We usually play 2500 pts, so this list will grow soon.

I do not have, but want a unit of outriders, with the hochland. Perhaps also a handgunners unit. I know they do not hit consistently, but I want to use them with Hammer of Sigmar, to help that.

Greatswords was actually included after I saw how well his White Lions performed in a previous game. They seemed to be Lion cups. I have just ordered the correct models for them, so they will stay in the list for some time, until I have a clear verdict.

[Phlash]

Swordsmen are always better then spearmen, it's not just about their survivability, they're WS4, which you discount, but they'er also I4 which can be very important.

If you manage to win combat against elves then you will strike first while your spears will always strike last.

Also spears get a 5+ save while swords get a 4+ in combat. and thats if you give spearmen shields in which case they cost the same and your spears don't get any of the bonuses.

Not that it seems to matter but I'd personally take Halberds over spears- it's a mans game afterall.

The I 4 is rubbish against High Elves. They have ASF. They ignore charging, initiative and weapon penalties, because they are elves.

Swords are truly not always better. In the game, yes, the spearmen met spearelves, which was the worst matchup. White lions care not if you are a spearman or a swordsman. Swordmasters actually prefer that you are a swordsman, because then there will be no return strikes.

The primary advantage of swordsmen is WS 4, which does not matter if the opponent have  WS 5. The spears are more flexible, while losing no advantage.

[Ethereal]

Swordsmen are always better then spearmen, it's not just about their survivability, they're WS4, which you discount, but they'er also I4 which can be very important.

If you manage to win combat against elves then you will strike first while your spears will always strike last.

No, you wouldn't. I'm not even talking about the ASF rule here. You won't find an elf with less than I5.

[Mikael.K]

Swordsmen are always better then spearmen, it's not just about their survivability, they're WS4, which you discount, but they'er also I4 which can be very important.

If you manage to win combat against elves then you will strike first while your spears will always strike last.

No, you wouldn't. I'm not even talking about the ASF rule here. You won't find an elf with less than I5.

Ethereal beat me to it  . Getting a helblaster is a good idea. A lot of people seem to use them and they arent so bad as one might think. They have a high intimitation value which is always great. S5 -3 to saves is really good actually.

[Phlash]

Actually, when I think about it, the helblaster is not half bad, if you judge it on its own merits, and not the merits of the gun it used to be. In fact, it is the gun that every repeater bolt thrower wants to be. There is no half shots at long range, and all hits are on S5.

[Ethereal]

Actually, when I think about it, the helblaster is not half bad, if you judge it on its own merits, and not the merits of the gun it used to be. In fact, it is the gun that every repeater bolt thrower wants to be. There is no half shots at long range, and all hits are on S5.

The Helblaster might not be bad.. but I definitely prefer the RBT over it. It's a far more versatile and reliable machine. It also has twice the range. Consider that you will be hitting on 5+ with the HVG, unless the enemy for some reason decide to wander within the 12" margin. There are also three chances of rolling a misfire every time you fire.

Yes, it has a higher average damage output than the RBT when everything goes according to plan. I'm just not convinced that the few extra inflicted wounds are enough to justify the trade-off. If it was possible to field both machines and make such choices, of course.

The range limitations and the relatively high chance of a disastrous misfire means that the HVG won't be firing as often as the RBT over the course of a normal battle. The RBT could very likely win on total damage output by the end of the game.

What about using some Mortars? The large template shots should kill quite a few lightly armored T3 troops if they make the foolish mistake of ranking up.

[Phlash]

What about using some Mortars? The large template shots should kill quite a few lightly armored T3 troops if they make the foolish mistake of ranking up.

You nailed the point there. In my experience, people rarely use ranked T3 troops. At best, they use two ranks, including the front rank. Still, if I could ensure that no dragons and other large targets appeared, I would definitely try out the mortar. I have two models lying around somewhere

[Ethereal]

You nailed the point there. In my experience, people rarely use ranked T3 troops. At best, they use two ranks, including the front rank. Still, if I could ensure that no dragons and other large targets appeared, I would definitely try out the mortar. I have two models lying around somewhere

You've been playing too much against MSU armies. I must try to put together a Gnoblar horde for you to fight. Except in that case it's probably not worth it to use the mortars either. Hmm. It would seem that there are no good answers here.

[Elieress]

A code tag sometimes help displaying what you want to do with the deployment.. the other was a bit too wobly to be easily recognicable 

EDIT: bugger this for a lark.. The code tag used to work for formatting setups.. 

[Derek Contyre]

Simple, i know you want to stick to the TVI tactics but consider taking detachments of handgunners.

s4 -2 save. eats elven elite troops for breakfast. drop maybe a cannon for a helblaster and drop it into the middle of your line, flank with knights and shoot him as he comes then outflank him with knights and hit him with your main blocks, have the combat detachements counter charge the main blocks on the side the knights arent charging. distract his dragon princes with something small and annoying, like archer detachments.

Or conversally hit the dragon princes with the knights on one flank and ream the other flank with knights. The helblaster concentrates fire on the centre, meybe whatever the handgunners cant kill or something.

Thats just imho