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Author Topic: Skaven rules?  (Read 11914 times)

Offline The newbie

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Skaven rules?
« on: August 06, 2009, 10:19:33 PM »
I had my first ever game vs. Skaven yesterday. I was massacred.

However it occured to me on the way home that had it been a serious game I would have been alot more forceful in making him show me the rules.

For example, after recieving a devastating blow from the ratling guns, I figured that shooting a detachment of 5 handgunners at the little rats would be a good idea. However my opponent said they could not be targeted in shooting or in magic. Is this true?

Also after a lucky failed charge by his rats I was able to charge his front and my detachment of free company supported hitting the flank. After some terrible dice rolls on my side (and some lucky rolls on his) I won combat by 2. However he argued that since he still had ranks he still could add them to his leadership. Could he have?

I'm not being sour for losing heavily. I just want to know for the next time I play Skaven.

Thanks in advance
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Offline stretch_135

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2009, 10:57:39 PM »
RE: Targeting weapons teams.

This was the case in 6th edition, however the change over to 7th meant that they can be targeted now. A lot of Skaven player apparently either missed that change, or chose to ignore it as it negatively impacts on the survivability of their weapons teams.

RE: Leadership

A flank charge by a unit of unit strength five or greater will remove the rank bonus. He ceases to have a rank bonus, so therefore cannot add it to his leadership.

Unfortunately, I'm at uni so can't provide pg. references for these, but I've recently started a Skaven army, so I've made sure I know those rules.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2009, 04:38:53 AM »
Stretch is spot on.

He also spot on about Skaven players not quite always being the most honest with the rules.

For the Weapon teams, you need to look at both his armybook regarding weapon teams, the BRB regarding targeting individual models, and the targeting rules regarding models with US > 1.

Regarding the ranks = leadership, if he can't claim the ranks as CR, he can't use them for leadership either.
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Offline ZeroTwentythree

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2009, 04:57:20 AM »


The targeting rule worked to hide the weapon team in 6th edition, but due to a change in the wording of the rules in 7th edition, you are free to shoot at the weapon teams.

As stretch and  warlord said, if your flanking detachment is 5 or more, they negate ranks. As the skaven rule allows them to add their rank bonus to their LD, if they have no ranks, they get no bonus.
 

Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2009, 07:51:12 AM »
Our current skaven player (the old one isn't playing warhammer atm, so I have a new one to laugh at) is trying to push that Rat Ogres are skirmishers.

I know they're crap, but please.  :icon_mrgreen:
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline typo

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2009, 07:51:32 AM »
The rule for targetting weapon teams in the skaven book is along the line of "The weapon team gets the same protection from shooting as an individual character within "3 of a ranked unit, if it is within 3" of it's parent unit"

In 6th, this meant that it couldn't be picked out. In 7th, characters receive no such protection from shooting, and neither does the weapon team.
Also note that although Jezzails and weapon teams are skirmishers, they are US2, so you don't suffer the -1 to hit them with shooting.

Regarding leadership - if they don't have a rank bonus, they don't get to add it to their leadership. Simple as.

I do however, resent the idea that Skaven players 'almost always' ignore or deliberately misinterpret rules.

Offline Elieress

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2009, 07:53:53 AM »
Weapon teams follow the same targeting restrictions as characters do, except that they have to be within 3 inches of their parent unit to benefit from that...

in 6. th edition that meant they could only be targeted when they were the closest target by both missile fire and magic missiles.

in 7.th edition that means they are f****d, as they can always be targeted if they can be seen.

as for the ranks:  If they loose the rank bonus, they loose the ld bonus.. Simple as that... they have to watch out for flank charges, and if they start running, they will not likely turn arround as fleeing troops dont have rankbonuses.
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Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2009, 07:56:27 AM »
I do however, resent the idea that Skaven players 'almost always' ignore or deliberately misinterpret rules.

Perhaps they should stop doing it then?  :engel:

As I said, I have 2 people here who play them, one is honest to the point of screwing himself over in a game, the other "Forgets" rules constantly, makes things up, etc.

So 50/50 isn't so bad.  :engel:

Edit: Oops, I did it again, I didn't copy and paste the first few reponses and add a little bit of text to call my own.  :roll:
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline Mogsam

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2009, 09:44:33 AM »
In all fairness I wouldn't have known that the rules had changed through editions based on main rule book wording. I own the book (mostly for cheap goblins) but i'd rather not read it properly, it's usually made up of illogical statements anyway. I usually just let the opposition know and if I lose it's my own fault.

My friend in our first game for about 8 months tried to flank charge me with his free company on it's parents units charge when he couldn't even see my flank. That's a time when I demand to see the book... Still lost the front charge. Grumble Grumble.

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Offline Empire4TheWin

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2009, 09:51:49 AM »
The vast majority of Skaven players are cheaters. Whether it's "forgetting" that rolling a 1 for warp lightning results in a hit on the warlock, "forgetting" that Skaven weapons teams can be targeted, or still counting ranks for leadership when they've been flanked, most of those that play Skaven deliberately cheat in order to win.

Offline Mogsam

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2009, 09:55:40 AM »
Those pesky Skaven players.

I'd love to have a warlord clan of skaven. Don't have to worry about flanks with 1,000 clanrats.

Mogsam
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Offline Elieress

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2009, 09:55:57 AM »
The vast majority of Skaven players are cheaters.

That is just a silly statement. By extension, most warhammer players are cheaters as all i know have forgotten a detail or two from time to time. The skaven army has quite a few special rules, that can slip from time to time, but to simply state that they are mostly cheaters is simply wrong.
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Offline Empire4TheWin

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2009, 10:10:37 AM »
Not knowing your armies special rules is cheating. I can forgive the odd slip when concerning the BRB rules, but your own armies rules at least should be engrained in your mind. I still see people that have played Skaven for 5 years make these "mistakes". Funny how all these "mistakes" benefit the Skaven player- they never make an error that doesn't benefit them!

Offline typo

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2009, 10:37:58 AM »
But that person would do the same with any army they played, it's not 'skaven players' (of which I am one). The skaven book depends on several BRB rules, most of them changed with the new edition - like the power dice generators on warlocks still adding to the pool, instead of just to the warlock, and the weapon team thing.

Offline Empire4TheWin

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2009, 10:44:44 AM »
Maybe cheaters just gravitate to the Skaven army then, as I never see such rules abuse happening with any other army generals. It would be forgivable if they something made errors which affected them in a negative way, such as forgetting a 13 counts as irresistible force. But they NEVER do. Any "mistakes" ALWAYS benefit the Skaven player. When it happens time and time again, it isn't just "mistakes", it's cheating.

Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2009, 10:46:08 AM »
Back in 6th Skaven were a power army, and the fact that they lost a few special rules (which were a large part of the power), could quite easily explain why a lot of the "Power" players "forget" certain rules so they can keep on using it.

No, I'm not saying they all do it at all. That's a gross generalisation.
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2009, 11:39:15 AM »
I hate skaven armies, mainly due to the number of times they have chewed me up and spat me out.

But I have to almost defend their players, and forgetting or not knowing rules.

A Lot of WFB rules are rules by omission, in that they are a rule because it isnt specifically mentioned that you cant do something in the rules.

To me thats a terrible way of writing rules and wide open to abuse and its a very common thing in 7th ed.

This rule with the cover from parent units, mounted troops ranking up with foot troops and others. (Dwaven handgunners could move and fire because they didnt mention they couldnt specifically in the army book - damn that was good) are all what I call "classic rules lawyer" rules, in that they are rules used and coming into usage purely because they are not specifically prohibited (when previously they were)
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Offline Mogsam

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2009, 12:32:09 PM »
The reason I don't enjoy playing with people who I haven't known for years is the hissy fits they throw over silly things such as this. When I play with new people I tend not to know certain rules or get them wrong. 

I'm not cheating, I just have played with the same 4 people for 5 years and the rules might have become squiffed where we have interpreted it differently or ignored one because it's a stupid rule. (Theres one about difficult terrain. I don't care if the book says zombies can climb over massive hedges. They can't.)

If you're worried about cheating ask to see their book and learn the B.R.B back to front. 

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Offline patsy02

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2009, 12:56:21 PM »
I make an average of 5 mistakes every game. There are some things I just can't get into my head.
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Offline queek

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2009, 12:58:10 PM »
so *this* is how DEfighter researches me?  by trolling here as an Empire player?!?

*dies laughing*

 :icon_lol:

Offline MrDWhitey

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2009, 01:00:43 PM »
so *this* is how DEfighter researches me?  by trolling here as an Empire player?!?

Drama?!



um, which one do you mean?
I thought he should act responsibly and just kill himself.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2009, 01:03:40 PM »
so *this* is how DEfighter researches me?  by trolling here as an Empire player?!?

*dies laughing*

 :icon_lol:

DEfighter? Who is that? I smell a great and funny story here with years of treachery and competition...please tell us.

Offline Phelix

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2009, 01:38:06 PM »
yup your right, as far as tournaments and very competitive games go.

However I would rule (as a house rule and talk with my opponent beforehand) that they should be unable too be targeted. Since they were originally designed that they shouldn't be targeted separately, and it was a change in the edition, not the skaven book, that made them a target.

Maybe Im biased for being a skaven player, but it feels this is more of an oversight in the changes of the rules than it is a purposeful change too the skaven (as it was not even mentioned in the FAQ) This wont be an issue much longer as they are apparently getting their new book in November (new doomwheel!)
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2009, 02:06:50 PM »
Does it say in the Skaven book that they cant be targets? I think special rules in the army books take precedent over the BRB.

If its just in the BRB...well, my answer isnt polite and you should take the rule changes like everyone esle out there.
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Offline queek

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Re: Skaven rules?
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2009, 04:36:00 PM »
Uryens, the Skaven book says that the Weapon Teams gain the same protection against shooting as a character would.  That meant something in 6th edition, it doesn't mean doodlysquat in 7th.