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Author Topic: How to really fix the halberd...  (Read 12591 times)

Offline Markus Von Brownpants

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How to really fix the halberd...
« on: August 28, 2009, 10:19:37 PM »
I've had a real eureka moment -has anybody else thought of this? :)

(please note: I'm just throwing an idea arround in order to stimulate debate!)

The real fix for halberdiers lies in the core rulebook, not the army book. In fact I think the whole role of weaponary needs to be considered in the game.

Consider this- a bloke with a puny sword vs a bloke with a long wooden pole with all manner of blade and pointyness at the end. Who will win?!

Why does a pole arm such as a halberd strike AFTER a two handed weapon?! Is this crazy or what? I am not a master of the martial arts- I didn't even go to karate classes when I was a kid, but I would happily fancy my chances with a big pointy stick versus the most hardened warrior with a knife.

I can understand that a two handed sword strikes last, but a pole arm?! Surely not.

The elector counts and nobles keep a standing force of halberdiers for what reason exactly? So they can get their ass kicked before they have chance to lacerate or decapitate an openent? That makes sense. Not.

GW really need to adress the core rules, not the army book.

Discuss....    :biggriin:

Offline Obi

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 10:41:04 AM »
"Why does a pole arm such as a halberd strike AFTER a two handed weapon?! Is this crazy or what?" It doesn't, only when being charged. Or is that what you mean?

The halberd, does not strike last.

To fix it, it'd be +1S, AP.

Done.
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Offline Markus Von Brownpants

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 02:53:10 PM »
Hmmm.... Doh!!!!

I wrote this after I got back from the pub yesterday. Having re-read I have realised I was barking up the wrong tree. I am unfamiliar with the rules for halberds- mainly because I don't use them.

I think in future I will only write posts when I am sober. It's a shame, because I thought I wrote a well structured piece there. Oh well!

My apologies for wasting not only my own time, but everybody elses.  :eusa_wall:

Offline peraturabo

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 06:58:19 PM »
AP would do the job

Offline Obi

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2009, 02:10:15 PM »
Hmmm.... Doh!!!!

I wrote this after I got back from the pub yesterday. Having re-read I have realised I was barking up the wrong tree. I am unfamiliar with the rules for halberds- mainly because I don't use them.

I think in future I will only write posts when I am sober. It's a shame, because I thought I wrote a well structured piece there. Oh well!

My apologies for wasting not only my own time, but everybody elses.  :eusa_wall:
There there, it's okay ;)
Hello Athiuen and welcome to the Back Table.

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Offline Steve-O

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2009, 03:41:13 PM »


To fix it, it'd be +1S, AP.

Done.

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Offline der Hurenwiebel

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2009, 04:39:38 PM »
Given their already silly S stat very few troops  have effective armour against them any ways, so what's the difference?

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Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

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Offline Markus Von Brownpants

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2009, 11:50:37 AM »
I'm glad my uneducated post has stimulated some discussion.

Personally I think the swordsmen and halberdiers should swap stats as halberdiers are supposed to be the trained standing forces of the empire. Swordsmen should be detachments only or skirmishers with a pistol and bucklers.


Offline Captain Tineal

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2009, 07:16:28 PM »
"Why does a pole arm such as a halberd strike AFTER a two handed weapon?! Is this crazy or what?" It doesn't, only when being charged. Or is that what you mean?

The halberd, does not strike last.

To fix it, it'd be +1S, AP.

Done.

Except they are never any Halberdiers left standing to use their Halberds when it is their turn to do some chopping.

They need an improvement in endurance, not choppyness.
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Offline shavixmir

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2009, 07:07:34 AM »
As far as I'm concerned, I think a lot of weapons need an over-haul:

Hand weapon: basic strength

Spear: Fights in two ranks (from the front), +1 S on charge when mounted, +1S against mounted foes if they charge.

Lance: Same

Pike: Fights in four ranks (from the front), +1 S when unit is charged from the front, +2 S, AP, when unit is charged from the front by mounted foes.

Bows:
Aim: same as it is now
Barriage: All models can fire (even ranked archers) at BS -1. They can shoot over units.

Long bows: Same as bow, except +1 S and AP

Crossbows: Range 30", +1S and AP (so the crossbow range is further, but the long bows can barriage).

Etc.
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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2009, 09:07:52 AM »
If they make a longbow the same range as a bow I will utilise my own longbow and prove the greater range and power of it. . .

My twelve year old brother gave me the best idea ever for fixing halberdiers. . . full plate armour.
The had it in the middle ages, why not now?
I know I would take a full plated halberdier even if he was ten points. Or five points for a halberdier, +2 heavy armour, +3 full plate and give that to spearmen and handgunners.
Then make only those options state troops and have swordsmen only able to take heavy armour because of the way they fight they "need" speed.
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Offline eSBeN84

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2009, 11:21:42 AM »
If you make the halberd stronger, you make Black Guards stronger.
And why do every one want to give all the state troops heavy or full plate armour?
Would the empire, witch is on war on all sides really have the resurces for that?

Offline Captain Tineal

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2009, 02:32:11 PM »
If you make the halberd stronger, you make Black Guards stronger.

Exactly, the problem isn't with the weapon, it is with the guy using it.  I don't think giving them more armour is a better solution either, they will still die in droves.  Or people will put shields on them and just use HW and Shield for a better AS. 

I think the best fix suggestion I've seen is to give them a rule that lets them strike with the full front rank, even if they have been wiped out, as long as there are enough guys in the next rank to do so.
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Offline peraturabo

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2009, 07:11:05 PM »
maybe give them ,,gewaltmarsch´´
halberds are the most trained troops over the whole empire
in every battle,there is at least one halberdier unit
so halberdiers are trained in marching long times
so i´d say:once per turn halberdiers can add d3 to their movement,when they are  not charging an enemy unit

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2009, 10:47:19 PM »
Ah but swordsmen and greatswordsmen even spearmen train every day, so why not give them that option as well, no we need to sort out how to make halberdiers a viable choice and also to stop them dying in droves or whatever.

Quote
Exactly, the problem isn't with the weapon, it is with the guy using it.  I don't think giving them more armour is a better solution either, they will still die in droves.  Or people will put shields on them and just use HW and Shield for a better AS. 

Simple, dont allow them to have a shield option. Although this will take away from the cool thing of putting sheilds on their backs.

Quote
And why do every one want to give all the state troops heavy or full plate armour?


Would the empire, witch is on war on all sides really have the resurces for that?

Really? the empire is at war on all sides?
So there is open war between empire and brettonia? and the storm of chaos is still running full swing?

Sorry for the scathing retort but multiple skirmishes and all out war are two differant things.  ::heretic:: ::heretic::
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Offline eSBeN84

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2009, 02:27:47 PM »
Actualy.  In the mountains between bretonia and the empire lies the land of the blood dragons(vampires) and in the forrests between bretonia and the empire the live wood elfs who do not take kindly to humans felling their forrests and of cource their's the forces of chaos both beastmen and hidden diciples.

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2009, 10:17:07 AM »
Land of the blood dragon vampire counts?

I think the single castle they have reoccupied is a little differant to all out war.
But I will give you the case for beastmen and chaos cults.
Wood elves would actively engage the empire, remember for every person they turn away they kill another. And also the wood elves in the empire arent that numerous, i think there is only a specific forest where they reside. And rememebr our peasants are so superstitious so ergo they wont enter said forest lol
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Offline Perius

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2009, 07:04:01 PM »
- Blood Dragons in Blood Keep are keeping their heads low. Empire doesn't even acknowledge they're there at the moment.
- Wood Elves of Laurelorn, Nordland, are quite happy in the Empire. They don't bother them, and don't get bothered in return. Indeed, it's in their interest that the Empire remains strong and wealthy, as it acts as an outer defence against invaders for them.
- Wood Elves of Athel Loren are more worried about Beastmen than normal men. Plus, the fact that they are on the wrong side of the Grey Mountains would make a war slightly more tricky, and just as worthless for both sides.

The Cultist/Beastman point is true, of course... just speaking up for the Asrai!


I submit that the problem with the halberd is not the weapon but the unit. Swordsmen are better, as they survive longer, and are thus more likely to win the combat through combat resolution. Being only marginally more expensive means that they are a much better option.


I therefore propose to cut the points cost of Halberdiers to 4/model. This is the sort of drastic cutting seen with the new Dark Elf book; it certainly worked there, making generic Warriors a much better choice.

For those hunting combat resolution, we make Halberdier Full Commands free. This represents the more common nature of Halberd regiments; other formations are more likely to be detachments, whilst Halberds tend (fluff-wise) to serve as proper regiments, and are thus more likely to have a complete command deck.


Halberdiers thus become a cheap unit with good combat resolution. Swordsmen aren't disadvantaged, and no fundamental rule change regarding state troops is carried out. No new special rules are introduced; rather than removing the weakness, we offset it.


What do you think?

Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2009, 01:28:57 PM »
Give the halberdiers options for h/a or full plate.

Our 15th century ancestors utilised halberdiers and full plate together, why cant our empire?
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2009, 03:09:39 PM »
Indeed, halberdiers to get heavy armour of even (one unit) to get full plate

Makes it a better reason to choose them as core, reflects what they did IRL
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Offline Inarticulate

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2009, 03:23:38 PM »
I'm in agreement with you guys, give them heavy armour. They're the standing army anyway so should get the best equipment.

But some people are opposed to this idea because "The models don't have Heavy Armour on them"...  :dry:
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Offline Perius

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2009, 05:14:44 PM »
Heavy armour would be a possibility; however, it doesn't remove the inherent preference for swordsmen. Most people would take a WS4, I4 3+ save trooper above a WS3, I3 5+ save trooper only one point cheaper...

Any change, I postulate, has to be unique to Halberdiers. An across-the-board change would merely improve all State Troops, increasing their points cost and not righting the wrong of Halberdiers being passed over.

Offline Inarticulate

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2009, 10:07:04 PM »
Swordsmen won't get heavy armour, so they'll be stuck with shield and light armour, only Halbs to have the expensive armour, as they're the standing army of the Empire.

So Swordsmen would have their higher IS and Initiative and the same save, but halbs would have the advantages of the halberdier. This, in my eyes makes the two choices much more equal and makes both of them viable.

Then, of course we get rid of Spearmen because they're a silly idea and give them the bonuses of the pike.

Sorted.
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Offline Derek Contyre

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2009, 10:58:41 PM »
If only life was that simple.

I still like spearmen though, maybe if we have pikemen in our list, they come with L/A while spearmen can upgrade to heavy armour.

I think it would be cool to have a sort of heavy spearmen unit.
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Offline Inarticulate

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Re: How to really fix the halberd...
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2009, 11:13:49 PM »
But Spearmen really are pointless.

What is the point in having Spearmen when you can have Pikemen? (Think about it fluffwise)
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