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Author Topic: 8th edition 5 years from now  (Read 11282 times)

Offline Lord Karnik

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8th edition 5 years from now
« on: August 17, 2010, 05:10:23 PM »
So what do we think in the early stages of 8th edition it's legacy was, also now that 7th is finished what was its legacy?

I believe 7th was the have and have not edition.  Some armies had it (DE, Demons, VC) everyone else did not.  It was also the skirmish style battle edition as big blocks were not common.

I Think 8th will be the power and clean edition.  All Armies seem to be close to each other, and thus I think Power list will emerge for each army and this list will be very common in tournament settings but will also become boring to face.  However in the friendly arena I think the edition will shine as the game has become very clean and very simple.


Just a brief thought feel free to through in your 2 cents
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Offline Johedl

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2010, 05:33:46 PM »
I started with the 7th last fall after a break from the early days of the 5th edition and I think that the 7th was a game of elites. Few standard troops had a Chance against Chaos Warriors, Swordmasters, Black Guards and so on. The limits in numbers of characters gave the same outcome, vampires and the such kicked generals of the Empire around and the cheap characters was mainly there to raise the Ld of their troops. Dragons and monsters was used to bring Lords up to elite levels for a few armies and the lists that did not have access to good monsters had to stand back and put their fate in warmachines and shooting to diminish the numbers of the elite units.
The 8th edition seems to be a step towards hand to hand combat. All units has the Chance of killing everything they facing and hold against whatever they is killing them. I think that the 8th edition is going to be bloodier than the 4th edition with its killing machine characters and devastating magic.

Offline Redstorm Rising

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2010, 06:25:59 PM »
Imho GW is on the right run this edition. Several Editions got their special problems. 2nd Edition was so Character-dominated for an example. 3rd one was in the focus of insane magic items combos and magic. 7th Edition was one of the biggest jokes about balancing. Additionally there was nearly no use for 30+ infantry blocks. For example Vampire Death Star or things like that dominated the game.

8th seems to be a good one. Elite units still crush other units, but now they receive a lot of damage even by weak mass units. Skirmishers and flyers got nerfed and especially infantry got buffed a lot. The interesting one is that GW didnt nerfed powerful units directly. They just buffed lesser used units.

The question is....GW did too much of redesign? Actually i would say no, but may be the time will show.

Imho Demons and Vampires got back to average till good strength instead of being a class of its own with Dark Elves. Dark Elves are still a very powerful race. The high I gives them a big advantage, but they will eat more dmg by the "remove from back"-rule which hurts every low armored elite race a lot.

May be GW will fix the last jokes (like hate on Hydras) and so on with the new Armybooks.

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 06:33:40 PM »
Eight will be remembered as the time of the Empire.
 
  Mark my words.
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Offline Grutch

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2010, 06:44:14 PM »
Eight will be remembered as the time of the Empire.
 
  Mark my words.

Live it up! 
Its our time.

-Grutch


Offline Von Falster

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2010, 06:47:05 PM »
Eight will be remembered as the time of the Empire.
 
  Mark my words.

I did.  :smile2:
Eight will be remembered as the time of the Empire.
 
  Mark my words.

Offline Johedl

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2010, 07:00:22 PM »
Eight will be remembered as the time of the Empire.
 
  Mark my words.


Let us not get to excited. Skaven are still out there and I here that there is a call for another great Waagh.
I am curious about how Ogre Kingdoms fares in this edition. The stomp attack and the monstrous support rule means that they will be better, the question is if they are good enough to go toe to toe with the big boys.

Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2010, 07:33:35 PM »
Pfft! It is still the time of the warhammer and cannon, but most importantly of all, it is the time of the HALBERD and finally we can stand up proudly, show of our codpieces and declare "Iīd take strength four any day!"
Oh, and remember GW made it personal, not you!

Offline Siberius

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2010, 07:56:06 PM »
I really like what they've done with most of the rules, a few exceptions, but that's not bad considering...

What will probably make or break it I guess will be how they fare with keeping the army book sensible. Fingers crossed that they hold it together...
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Offline HesseCassel

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2010, 08:07:40 PM »
my long time gaming pals all pretty much gave up with 7th - it was just too much about characters, killer list building and playing your special rules upon some poor sucker who hadn't read your book.  And there was always a new super-unit/character/gadget out there to ruin the fun.

8th restores a lot of balance to the game, and makes massed melee combats and the battle line sensible again.  I'd say it's a move to "realistic melee play" and now all the special stuff is there to weaken up his battle line so you can have a better chance to break it.  Feels more "historical" in the sense that melee matters, which is should for this type of period.  7th was virtually like 40K or modern warfare.  This feels like massed armies coming to grips.

We all are enjoying the slamfest of fighting, yet there's plenty of room for maneuver and tactics.  Hopefully, this trend will continue!

Offline PhillyT

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2010, 08:11:19 PM »
Except that 75% of warhammer infantry will take that halberd out of your hand and crack that codpeice in half with it.

Empire is not the top dog this edition, but we are certainly in the top 25%, which is something that couldn't be said ever really.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Dracos

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2010, 09:36:51 PM »
Quote
Some armies had it (DE, Demons, VC) everyone else did not. 
Never had excessive problem with Vamps or Druchii probably averaged 50/50 with Warriors, Asrai, and Empire.

Quote
Few standard troops had a Chance against Chaos Warriors  .  .  .  The 8th edition seems to be a step towards hand to hand combat. 
Chaos Warriors are and always have been Core  .  .  .  Melee still isn't Empire strength. That is not to til after the enemy has taken a couple Turns of Artillery and shooting to deal with. Sounds alot like my 7th ed army personally.

Quote
Additionally there was nearly no use for 30+ infantry blocks. For example Vampire Death Star or things like that dominated the game.
 
Aren't Deathstars the very definition of a 30+ Infantyry block? Just saying. MSU had it's place and so did Deathstars. Just depends on your army's style of play.

Quote
7th - it was just too much about characters, killer list building and playing your special rules upon some poor sucker who hadn't read your book.  And there was always a new super-unit/character/gadget out there to ruin the fun.
 
Maybe it's just my style but . . . My Empire and Asrai armies could hardly be said to have had uber characters. Part of the game is coming up with killer list - always has been and will be for some folks. Anybody who plays the game should be willing to research his opponent's capabilities - if not cool, but don't expect to be competitive in anything in life without a little effort though.

Just a few thoughts on the above ideals about the so-called "legacies". Ther are a ton of things I liked and disliked about 7th. and I can already see the same for 8th. (I just happen to HATE TLoS for any miniature game) Relax , Enjoy, have fun with your friends or participating in Tournaments. Just remember your game and some other guys might be different and that should be okay, whether it's in a LGS or while discussing the game on the internet. Peace

PS: Empire Artillery and Asur ASF ae going to be big in 8th. Play nice

Offline oak_prince

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2010, 10:21:34 PM »
Warhammer 8E is, first and foremost, and attempt to take the edge of the game's learning curve. I can recall many instances where a new guy showed up for a tournament at my LGS, got slaughtered, and never showed up again. And we weren't even playing ultra-cheesy armies like you hear about on Warseer.

Honestly, though, I think they went too far. Acrobatic characters and steadfast took the edge off the consequences of being flanked. Flank cav, skirmishers, harpies, et cetera have been hit by the nerf hammer now that it's really difficult to be march-blocked, tactical fleeing is very risky, and units can redirect charges at the drop of a hat.

Five years from now, the game will be larger but with a dumber fanbase.

On the positive side, I like premeasuring. It narrows the learning curve without dumbing down the game. The random charge distances make it impossible to spend tons of time carefully arranging units to make the enemy's charges fail by a centimetre(this happened in the demo game of Flames of War I played and kill my interest in the game). I do wish it had been something more reasonable though, like Move+1d6+2. I've seen some pretty ridiculous charges succeed....
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Offline Lord Karnik

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2010, 11:05:11 PM »
glad to see this is taking off. have to say I think the Dwarfs may prove a tuugh match in 8th for just about any one
"To improve on something takes understanding of what already is and requires thought.  To invent something new is genius"

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Offline wissenlander

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2010, 11:09:51 PM »
Ninth edition shall be on the horizon and 100 man units will be the norm then if the trend continues.
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2010, 01:22:22 AM »
I think the ease of flanking is what made 7th such a pain in the butt.  5 knights shouldn't be able to take away the rank bonuses of 40 men.  However, a unit of knights charging a unit of infantry will very often win even under 8th.  No outnumber bonus and the +1 for charging mean the infantry blocks have a harder time winning combats in many cases, they just stay around a little longer.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Warlord

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2010, 01:55:38 AM »
I think the ease of flanking is what made 7th such a pain in the butt.  5 knights shouldn't be able to take away the rank bonuses of 40 men.

Who took 40 men in 7th, or even 6th?

5 knights in a flank should be able to bust apart 20 guys, now they have no chance.

However, a unit of knights charging a unit of infantry will very often win even under 8th.  No outnumber bonus and the +1 for charging mean the infantry blocks have a harder time winning combats in many cases, they just stay around a little longer.

Cavalry this edition is crap. I expect 9th edition to boost cavalry effectiveness, as all the movies with the glorious cavalry charges will sway the game designers pens.

Magic is too overpowered this edition. All that really needs to be done, is either restore double 1's = miscast, or allow players an attempt at dispelling IF spells.

Skaven is the powerhouse this edition. They excel at everything this edition boosted, and I expect most Tournies to have Skaven rating highly. Again.
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Offline PhillyT

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2010, 02:14:24 AM »
Who took 40 men in 7th, or even 6th?

Who took cavalry at all?  I was saying that if they kept the rules the same for infantry, 8th wouldn't have been any different in terms of army comp.

Quote
Cavalry this edition is crap. I expect 9th edition to boost cavalry effectiveness, as all the movies with the glorious cavalry charges will sway the game designers pens.

I had my boar boy unit mince its way through two full units of orcs.  A total of over 50 models with only 15 boar boyz.  If you think cavalry is crap, you aren't trying.

Quote
Magic is too overpowered this edition. All that really needs to be done, is either restore double 1's = miscast, or allow players an attempt at dispelling IF spells.

The only game I saw magic approach too powerful was when I watched a slann roll a 9 and an 11 on two rounds of magic.  Other than that, it has been potent, but no moreso than shooting or melee.  If anything, I am impressed that they have managed to get it to fit into the rest of the game without being too good or too bad.  It just is.  The way it needed to be.

Quote
Skaven is the powerhouse this edition. They excel at everything this edition boosted, and I expect most Tournies to have Skaven rating highly. Again.

Very likely.  Orcs and Goblines along with Empire have similar advantages.  Chaos Warriors and dwarves got big bumps too.  I am actually thinking dwarves might be the dark horses of this edition.  They shoot and fight better than empire, and can shut down the magic phase nearly as well.

Phil
Where did she touch you Eight? Show us on the doll.

Offline Warlord

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2010, 03:46:37 AM »
Quote
Cavalry this edition is crap. I expect 9th edition to boost cavalry effectiveness, as all the movies with the glorious cavalry charges will sway the game designers pens.
I had my boar boy unit mince its way through two full units of orcs.  A total of over 50 models with only 15 boar boyz.  If you think cavalry is crap, you aren't trying.

Really? Did you have a character in it? Did the Orc Boyz? Did you have a banner? Any BigUnz?
Taking a guess at equipment:
Your Boar Boyz had Spear, Shield, LA and FC
Enemy Orc Boyz had Choppa and Shield
And a total of 50 Orcs = 2 full units? Maybe in 7th ed, not in 8th. 25 would hardly be enough. And you pitted them against an 8th ed sized cavalry unit?

Looking at the points costs, 15 Boar Boyz would have cost roughly 400pts, while 2 units of 25 Orc Boyz would have come out at roughly 360. I should hope your big unit of cavalry could break these small (by 8th ed standards) units of Orcs.

I think cavalry is crap compared to the boosts everything else received. The requirement of a full second rank for basic cavalry (not your hammer Chaos and Blood Knights) mean they need high numbers to break units, making them expensive for their use. Going all out with a unit of cavalry of size 15+ is an expensive investment, and one that needs to pay back its points quickly.

I can try and make cavalry work. And they can. But the point is, the way the rules are currently, they are overcosted for their use (again, leaving the hammer cavalry out of this).
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2010, 05:18:30 AM »
I have to agree that I donīt like to include cavalry in my lists. Perhaps I try a unit of Dragon Princes as their fire immunity gives them a slight advantage but still Infantry is better compared points wise.

Offline Shadowlord

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2010, 06:03:27 AM »
If you think cavalry is crap, you aren't trying.

Amen, gone are the ridiculous 5 knight units that spammed the board.

I am also miraciously agreeing on your take on magic - nice but unpredictable.
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Offline Warlord

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2010, 06:58:51 AM »
If you think cavalry is crap, you aren't trying.

Amen, gone are the ridiculous 5 knight units that spammed the board.

But they aren't gone. Those 5 knights of Chaos, or 5 Blood Knights will still be on the board. They were the real problem with Cavalry, and they haven't gone anywhere.

I do like that you need more knights to break apart units, but 5 knights would easily be able to bust apart 20 men.
Cavalry should only need 1 rank to negate ranks against battle bus formations. They should require a second rank to break apart horde formations.

I am also miraciously agreeing on your take on magic - nice but unpredictable.

Don't get me wrong, I am liking the magic this edition. But there is no proper dis-incentive for throwing 6 dice at a spell just to get the IF. Especially combined with the two main killer spells of Purple Sun and Dwellers Below. The fixes I suggested would not change anything, except give the caster a reason to have a second thought on whether throwing all their dice at the killer spell is the best choice. Because as the edition goes on, this will be something people will keep complaining about (or doing). Mark my words.
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Offline Shadowlord

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2010, 07:13:07 AM »
But they aren't gone. Those 5 knights of Chaos, or 5 Blood Knights will still be on the board. They were the real problem with Cavalry, and they haven't gone anywhere.

Now Warlord, how can these expensive units spam the board?

I am talking about cheap cavalry that broke ranks and made tough units run away like little girls.

Quote
Because as the edition goes on, this will be something people will keep complaining about (or doing). Mark my words.

Don't need to.

After all this is the internet, there are a million screen game designers, and everyone knows best... So there will be a shitload of stuff to whine about.
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Offline Johedl

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2010, 07:15:01 AM »
Quote
I do like that you need more knights to break apart units, but 5 knights would easily be able to bust apart 20 men.
Cavalry should only need 1 rank to negate ranks against battle bus formations. They should require a second rank to break apart horde formations.

I like the idea. Perhaps cavalry should only need 4 files to form a rank, 5 for infantry, 4 for cavalry and 3 for monsters.

Offline warhammerlord_soth

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Re: 8th edition 5 years from now
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2010, 07:19:31 AM »
In essence, 10 cm of frontage equals a rank. Which is my dream situation.

20 and 40 mm wide don't change, 25 becomes 4 per rank.
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