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Author Topic: Loss to OK - 2500 points  (Read 7420 times)

Offline sammay23

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Loss to OK - 2500 points
« on: February 11, 2012, 07:07:34 PM »
OKay... here's the report. It's pretty self-explanatory. I think it's really important to post reports on losses, so we can examine them and explore what other generals might have done differently.

2500 Points - Empire

AL on Waltar - Speculum, Dawn Armor, Shield
Lvl 4 Life - Rod of Power
Lvl 1 LIfe - Dispel Scroll (in IC Knights)
BSB - AoMI (in larger halberd unit)
2 x Captain - FP, Sh, Lance, Warhorse, Barding (in IC Knights)
WP HV, Sh (in smaller halberd unit)
WP Hv, Sh, Casket of Sorcery (in larger halberd unit)

58 Halberds, 5 FC detachment
49 Halberds, 5 FC detachment
30 Flagellants
5 IC Knights
3 Great Cannon
1 Mortar

Ogre Kingdoms - 2500 Points
Slauhgtermaster - Dispel Scroll, Fencers Blades, Armor of Destiny
Butcher - Lvl 2, Beasts, Hellheart, Ironfist
Bruiser - BSB, HA, Ironfist

11 Ironguts
10 Ogres, ironfist
8 Maneaters - Dragonhide Banner, scouts, swiftstride, 6x brace of pistols

2x Ironblaster
3xKitties!

Deployment

His is a great army. By the time he's placed his 3 kitties and 2 Ironblasters, most of my major elements are on the board. He positions himself on my weaker flank. The kitties were pretty inconsequential, so I won't clog the board with them. Sometimes they are incredibly effective as blockers... but not this game.



Turn One - Ogres



Everything shuffles forward a bit. Both Ironblasters peek out from behind the building and draw a bead on my artillery. He gets a strong initial magic phase. I let him buff some of his troops a bit, block some of the better buffs, and save three dice. In the shooting phase, both his Ironblasters wipe out one cannon each. His maneaters kill one IC knight with 24" pistols.

Turn One - Empire



I rush my left flank forward. Position knights for a flank charge on his maneaters, if he charges my detachment, which i move directly in his way. Magic is potent. I roll boxcars. The butcher pulls out his hellheart, rolls a 4 for range (20") and causes a miscast on my level 4. I lose a level, and lose Dwellers. I get Timewarp on the Flagellants with six dice. My opponent blocks earthblood on the knights. Damn that hellheart. My one remaining cannon takes two wounds off of an Ogre in his right-flank. The mortar takes a wound off of his Maneaters.

Turn Two - Ogres



One of his Ironblasters pivots and moves behind the house, to draw a bead on my last cannon. The rest of his line jostles forward, on his left trying to make sure he isn't open to a flank charge from the IC Knights. Magic is uneventful. Shooting sees him overshoot my flagellants but nail the last cannon. *sigh*

Turn Two - Empire



Propelled by Timewarp, the flagellants move 16" and the large block of halberds moves to maintain the line. The knights move further up the right flank, out of charge range from the Maneaters, and threatening his Ironblaster and Ironguts. The detachments place themselves in harm's way, as is their job. Magic is pathetic - 3 dice. I can't get a thing off. The mortar drops a shot behind the maneaters.

Turn Three - Ogres



Ever patient, and knowing he has me outshot, my opponent just shuffles his line a bit, reforms his Ironguts, so they can move into the gap in the center, and moves his Ironblasters on the flanks. Magic sees me stop all of his big stuff (4+ regen, +1S/T). Shooting... ah, shooting. It used to be MY favorite phase... He snipes my AL, killing the Lector but not the cart. He kills one halberd from the smaller unit with that shot as well. His other cannon misfires and cannot fire that turn. His Maneaters gun down my poor detachment, leaving them open to charge my halberds next turn. Nice move.

Turn Three - Empire




Flaggies fail their charge. Knights charge, he flees with his Ironblaster. They fail to catch. My lone detachment strikes home in the Ogre's front. Magic is low again! He lets me have Throne of vines, because I don't have enough dice to go for IF after getting it. He uses his dice to stop Flesh to Stone. He scrolls my attempt to get Light of Battle on the smaller Halberd unit. Mortar takes another wound off of an Ogre in the leftmost unit.

Turn Four - Ogres



His Maneaters charge. His Ogres back up and to the side a bit. His Ironguts move in line with the Ogres. His Ironblaster rallies. His other one moves up closer for a flank shot on the Flaggies. In the magic phase, I block his big stuff, but he manages to get off Stubborn on his Ogres unit with one die, and I can't stop him. Crap! His Ironblaster UNDERSHOOTS my flaggies. He rolled 2 2s on the bounce. Very nice. The Maneaters with Dragonhide banner level 4 impact hits, 32 attacks, hit with 28 (he hits on 3s and re-rolls 1s due to the banner) 26 wounds, and 4 stomps, he then breathes on the unit for another 3 kills - 37 halberdiers dead. They account for 3 Maneaters, since they go at the same time, but are routed and destroyed. Damn but those maneaters are good, and kitted out just right for that kind of slaughter.

Turn Four - Empire



At this point, this battle is NOT lost. I have a strong flank closing on his, and he has a lot of points concentrated in his two units. A few buffs, and the tide will turn. Flagellants charge home into his Ogres. The big halberd unit closes the line, ready to receive a charge from his Ironguts, or to hit his flank if he charges the flagellants.  I move the altar forward, 'cause why not. He charges it with a kitty later. Nothing much happens. Knights charge the Ironblaster. I also unveil the casket but fail to roll above a 4 for the rest of the game. *sigh* Magic. Yes! I get 11 dice. With throne still up, I'm in great shape. I get Flesh to Stone on the Flagellants and Light of Battle on the Halberds. Shooting - the mortar misfires and misses this turn. Combat - The flaggies tear through his Ogres unit like a knife through hot butter. They successfully sacrifice the magical 2, and rack up 19 wounds. He saves 3. With the wounds from the mortar, he loses six Ogres, one of them his Butcher. He manages 3 T7 Flaggies in return. BUT he's stubborn!! Dammit! He sticks. This was the first of a few events that really didn't go my way. Breaking that unit would have changed the course of the battle, but he did really well in drawing out my dice and taking the chance on getting stubborn on that unit. Knights drive the Ironblaster off the board and FAIL to restrain their pursuit. Bah!

Turn Five - Ogres



His poxed Ironblaster successfully charges my halberds in the flank! Crap. His Ironguts charge home in the Flaggies flank - not unexpected. His Maneaters move towards my poor, exposed Lvl 4 (oops, lvl 3, damn you Hellheart!). He still isn't able to do much with magic. I let him get regen on his Ironguts. That's it. His Maneaters shoot the poor mage, and take off a wound. In combat, the flaggies start getting hurt by the S6 Ironguts, but are holding on. They claim another Ogre. The Ironblaster does five wounds alltogether. I move my WP and BSB into combat with it, but it's T6 and they only land one wound, which he saves. I lose combat, but stick and reform the unit. If I cannot kill or drive off the Ironblaster, this game is over!

Turn Five - Empire



I can't kill his damn Ironblaster. I still win combat by 2, but he's within 12" of his general and sticks. I concede. If I can't get that unit into his Ironguts, there's no real hope for victory. That Ironblaster was capable of holding us there for another turn, at least.


Conclusion

Okay, so that's that. My second loss to this opponent since he took two Ironblasters in his army. I'd love to hear thoughts, comments, criticisms and suggestions.

cheers,

 :::cheers:::


« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 07:54:49 PM by sammay23 »
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Offline Von Ulrich

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 09:34:08 PM »
So the Iron blaster is a move and fire cannon?  That seems harsh.

Offline commandant

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 09:56:31 PM »
why not charge the maneaters with the IC knights?   If they have lances they should go first.   They won't kill them all but they should drag them out of range and as they have a 1+ save.   

Against this list I think it important to break up the units.

Offline sammay23

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2012, 10:29:00 PM »
I thought about it. If he had ever given me the flank, I would have.

I've developed a bit of a phobia about that unit, though. They're always S5 and WS4. With that unit, I'd have 6 attacks from the captains, hitting on 3's - that's 4 hits, and four more from the champ and second row hitting on 4's, 2 more hits. Wounding on 2's, let's be optimistic and say I do 6 unsaved wounds. Two Maneaters. He's still going to have 5 Ogres to hit back. 20 attacks, 10 hits, he'd attack into the unit, so S5 v T3, let's say they all wound. I'd have 10 3+ saves to make... I'd get 7 or so, and lose 3 knights. Huh... I'd win by 4!! Who knew! And that's not even counting horses attacks :)

Well played, commandant. I totally underestimated that Knights unit.

Next time...
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Offline Athiuen

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 11:58:37 PM »
The problem here is that the only thing we can learn is this:  The Ironblaster is overpowered.  GW f**ked up.
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Offline commandant

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2012, 12:38:55 AM »
My advice in general though against OK is a big unit of knights.   Take 15 - 20.   Drop one of the halberd hordes and slam into him full steam ahead in horde formation to get all 20 attacks with a warrior priest.   I think Orges are I2 so you should hit first and you'll cut down have the unit before they get to strike.

Orges are really good at killing infantry, not so good at killing 1+ save knights and the army has little in the way of firepower to stop them.   Just make sure not to give their crazy cannons a flank shot :)

Offline Noght

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2012, 03:05:00 AM »
The problem here is that the only thing we can learn is this:  The Ironblaster is overpowered.  GW f**ked up.

This.  Against a normal cannon you would park 13" away so they couldn't grapeshot you and at worst lost a single knight to a Cannonball.  Because the F*ing Blaster can move and shoot you have to be over 19" away to prevent S10 Grapeshot (I believe) which means you will most likely fail a charge which means next turn he moves and grapeshots you.  So broken.

Noght
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Offline Delthos

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2012, 12:32:38 PM »
My advice in general though against OK is a big unit of knights.   Take 15 - 20.   Drop one of the halberd hordes and slam into him full steam ahead in horde formation to get all 20 attacks with a warrior priest.   I think Orges are I2 so you should hit first and you'll cut down have the unit before they get to strike.

Orges are really good at killing infantry, not so good at killing 1+ save knights and the army has little in the way of firepower to stop them.   Just make sure not to give their crazy cannons a flank shot :)

The good thing about a big Knight unit is that he should recognize how dangerous it is and he'll have to make a hard choice, fire his Ironblasters at them to reduce their effectivness or shoot at your Great Cannons in order to protect his Ironblasters. If he shoots at the Cannons the Knights hit him a fell strength, and if he shoots at Knights the Cannons will likely take out what ever unit they charge and depending on the situation, maybe overrun into something. Assuming you are taking 10, unless you take a unit of them greater than 10, the Knights are likely going to lose 4 models if he does shoot at them. Meaning you are only going to be hitting his units with 6 models and that's not going to do much. Even if you go 15 models, he's going to likely kill 6 meaning you are down to 9 models. Again that is a significant drop in numbers, unless you put them in 10 wide in which case you'll lose 4 models bringing them down to 11 models. Of course you need to be really careful that they don't get flanked and they get the charge or else you have a really nice wad of points you are feeding him.

I can almost guarantee he shoots at the Knights if he recognizes how dangerous they are. If not he will every game after the first and they hit one of his units and kill most of them. The risk of losing his Ironblasters is nothing compared to losing an entire unit of Maneaters in one round of combat.

It was a mistake for GW to allow a super great cannon to move and fire though. I don't mind their scraplauncher being able to move and fire, but the cannon is just wrong.
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Offline sammay23

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2012, 03:07:24 PM »
Well, the book just came out, so I don't think we'll be seeing much change in the list anytime soon. So, as far as I'm concerned, the question is how we beat it as is.

I've been thinking :)

You know what's great? We can field mounted captains with a 1+ rerollable for about 100 points. I recently had a whole block of 50 halberds held up by a saurus scar vet with a 1+/4+ and it got me thinking. I'm considering taking two mounted captains with a rerollable 1+ in my next list.

I think they're better than a big unit of knights, because they can HIDE and because they're not worth a lot of points. If we can get them stuck in to CC, they'll do just fine against the Ironblaster. Even the two S5 attacks ought to bounce, while we're hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s in the first round. At worst, they'll just tie up the damn things for the whole game. Add a potion of strength, and you've got two excellent rounds of combat.

Obvioulsy, the 1+ won't help if they get grapeshotted, but our job is to force the Ironblasters to make choices. I'm kinda digging this idea. What do you guys think?

Also, one of these captains into the flank of an Ogres unit will shrug off the S4 attacks and pin that unit, too. At least until they reform :)
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Offline Capt. Lamaar

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2012, 03:42:55 PM »
I have a technicality question, which I mourn because I don't really have anything else effective to add which would help against Ogres in this fight. 

Does your IC Knights have a command group?  In the BRB on page 97 under the heading Position in the Unit it states that command groups must always be placed in the front rank.  If there is no more room for characters to be in the front rank then any remaining characters must be placed in the second rank.

"...so matched they stood, for neither were like to meet so great a foe..."
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Offline sammay23

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2012, 05:33:16 PM »
I have a technicality question, which I mourn because I don't really have anything else effective to add which would help against Ogres in this fight. 

Does your IC Knights have a command group?  In the BRB on page 97 under the heading Position in the Unit it states that command groups must always be placed in the front rank.  If there is no more room for characters to be in the front rank then any remaining characters must be placed in the second rank.



An excellent question. The answer is that I took only a champion. Thus, my front rank was captain, captain, champion. My lvl 2 wizard was in the second rank, which was exactly where i wanted him. It's a bit cheezy, but a good way to protect the Wiz.
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Offline Capt. Lamaar

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2012, 01:49:00 AM »
I fully agree is was a good way to protect your Wizard.  It was a little Brotonnian of you, and their's nothing wrong with playing another armies game!
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 07:20:14 AM »
Pegasus Captain with charmed shield could deal with the iron blaster first turn you fly over close to him he shoots you survive you charge done.

A grapeshot could hurt if he opts on it but he has still to roll to hit etc.

Offline Noght

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2012, 01:20:33 PM »
Pegasus Captain with charmed shield could deal with the iron blaster first turn you fly over close to him he shoots you survive you charge done.

A grapeshot could hurt if he opts on it but he has still to roll to hit etc.

What if he moves out of your charge arc and then grapeshots you?  Probably not easy due to a non-march move but possible so make sure you get close enought to charge and far enough away to prevent him from getting out of your front arc.  Like trying to fight an avoidance list, this shouldn't be a problem vs OK but it is, so lame.

Noght
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Offline commandant

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2012, 02:14:22 PM »
Pegasus Captain with charmed shield could deal with the iron blaster first turn you fly over close to him he shoots you survive you charge done.

A grapeshot could hurt if he opts on it but he has still to roll to hit etc.

What if he moves out of your charge arc and then grapeshots you?  Probably not easy due to a non-march move but possible so make sure you get close enought to charge and far enough away to prevent him from getting out of your front arc.  Like trying to fight an avoidance list, this shouldn't be a problem vs OK but it is, so lame.

Noght

It should be really difficult to do that.   A peggy captain can easily have half to board in his charge arc. 

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2012, 02:16:58 PM »
Well the move and shoot is a huge advantage I grant you that but the Pegaponi rider often is underestimated and with an average of 20 inches charge range you can do well if you place him like 15 inches away.

The ogre cannon is underpriced though it should be around 250+ points

Offline Jörgen Andreasson

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2012, 09:38:53 PM »
Well, we are largely playing on slightly bigger areas than 6*4 so I could probably position my cannon outside his range some of the time.
Aside from that you could use a steam tank to block the shots (take the shots) in turn one. If you have a life wizard you could heal the tank if it gets wounded. Now you also have an extra cannon that can move and shoot and grind some Orges to death in close combat as well.

Also, if you play by the rules when setting up the field you are quite likely to roll for obstacles, make sure to place them in good firing positions for your cannons, they stop a cannonball most of the time. Turn your cannon sideways to give them a smaller footprint to shoot at.

You also have a 1/3 chance to survive a hit, so loosing two cannons in the first turn are more or less just bad luck when all things considered.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 09:41:13 PM by Jörgen Andreasson »

Offline sammay23

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 03:11:21 PM »
I certainly agree that I had some bad luck. Had some with the Arch Lector as well. I don't own a Steam Tank, so I won't field one anytime soon.

I think the trick is to force the Ogres player to make hard choices: "Do I shoot at the cannons targeting me, or the captain who is going to charge me next turn?" At 170 points, the Ironblaster is worth trying to take out.

I think what's hard is that I'm not used to taking units designed to hunt warmachines. I try to play an all-comers list against every army I play, and need warmachine hunters who are useful against WoC, too, for example. I'm going to try out the multi-captains list, and see how that goes.

Vanilla knights tend to bounce off the Ironblaster, even on a charge. IC knights can do better at S6, but can definitely be ground down if they don't rout the Ironblaster in the first round of combat. It's nice to have a challenge on the board. And my opponent's luck will change at some point. He hasn't blown one up yet on a misfire. That'll happen sooner or later. For now, I'll try forcing him to make tough decisions about selecting targets. I've got a small-ish tourney this weekend and will report after that.

cheers,
 :::cheers:::
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Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 03:17:58 PM »
Try to equip Nilla Knights with a standard it is only 10 points if they get captured but you should beat the Blaster with combat resolution on his meagre ld it means he should run and die.

charge +1
standard+1
one wound +1

against 1 wound if he gets lucky

If you manage a flank charge the rhinox won´t be able to strike I think and you get another +1 cr


Offline sammay23

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2012, 05:29:14 PM »
Yeah, flanks work great, if you can get em. You are correct that the mount won't be able to attack, which resolves a lot of the trouble.

I think 'nilla knights could work. I think a mounted captain could work better, for less cost. I've put two in my list at 103 and 105 points each, with 1+ re-rollables. As long as I get them into combat, they should do great, front or flank.

Don't worry. I'll post a new bat rep as soon as I play the OK again. Might be this weekend... hopefully in the finals of a 3-game tourney we're both going to :)
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Offline Porkix

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 05:02:53 AM »
I just had an idea, the leadership of the OK is pretty low and the kitty are easy to kill. Making him take Ld test with the blasters after killing a kitty with small arm fire or small magic missile might be a good option.

Porkix

Offline Noght

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2012, 02:56:32 AM »
Well the move and shoot is a huge advantage I grant you that but the Pegaponi rider often is underestimated and with an average of 20 inches charge range you can do well if you place him like 15 inches away.

The ogre cannon is underpriced though it should be around 250+ points

Move is 6" (I believe) + 12" Grapeshot means 15" is a Dead Capt.  Average Swiftstride Flying charge is 9" + 10" = 19" so that's cutting it awful close.   Our Heavy Cav average charge is 16" so no way to avoid the Grapeshot.  Someone needs to confirm move and if the Grapeshot has a move and shoot penalty, not sure.

Noght
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Offline Cursain

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2012, 04:27:52 PM »
Well the move and shoot is a huge advantage I grant you that but the Pegaponi rider often is underestimated and with an average of 20 inches charge range you can do well if you place him like 15 inches away.

The ogre cannon is underpriced though it should be around 250+ points

Move is 6" (I believe) + 12" Grapeshot means 15" is a Dead Capt.  Average Swiftstride Flying charge is 9" + 10" = 19" so that's cutting it awful close.   Our Heavy Cav average charge is 16" so no way to avoid the Grapeshot.  Someone needs to confirm move and if the Grapeshot has a move and shoot penalty, not sure.

Noght

I don't see why it wouldn't Noght.

Straight from the BRB pg 40:

Models that moved for ANY reason during the preceeding Movement or Magic phase will have less time to aim, making their shots less accurate and suffering a shooting modified of -1.

Offline StealthKnightSteg

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2012, 04:45:40 PM »
Well the move and shoot is a huge advantage I grant you that but the Pegaponi rider often is underestimated and with an average of 20 inches charge range you can do well if you place him like 15 inches away.

The ogre cannon is underpriced though it should be around 250+ points

Move is 6" (I believe) + 12" Grapeshot means 15" is a Dead Capt.  Average Swiftstride Flying charge is 9" + 10" = 19" so that's cutting it awful close.   Our Heavy Cav average charge is 16" so no way to avoid the Grapeshot.  Someone needs to confirm move and if the Grapeshot has a move and shoot penalty, not sure.

Noght

I don't see why it wouldn't Noght.

Straight from the BRB pg 40:

Models that moved for ANY reason during the preceeding Movement or Magic phase will have less time to aim, making their shots less accurate and suffering a shooting modified of -1.

I think the OK army book will nullify that rule...
I don't have the newest AB of OK, but this is what is mentioned on the GW site for the Ironblaster:

Quote
Jeremy Vetock from Games Development says: The first few times I used an Ironblaster I fielded it as I would a cannon, which is pretty nasty. However, the Ironblaster can do more - it is a move and fire chariot with a special Strength 10 grapeshot blast. It is pulled by a powerful Rhinox and crewed by an Ogre (okay, there is a Gnoblar Scrapper on there too, but I think you know who'll cause most of the damage). So move up close, shooting as you go and then charge in combat or unleash with some Strength 10 grapeshot! Try advancing along one side of the battlefield, as you might get some spectacular flank shots into vulnerable enemy formations (armoured knights being my favourite target).
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Offline Cursain

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Re: Loss to OK - 2500 points
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2012, 05:58:56 PM »
Well the move and shoot is a huge advantage I grant you that but the Pegaponi rider often is underestimated and with an average of 20 inches charge range you can do well if you place him like 15 inches away.

The ogre cannon is underpriced though it should be around 250+ points

Move is 6" (I believe) + 12" Grapeshot means 15" is a Dead Capt.  Average Swiftstride Flying charge is 9" + 10" = 19" so that's cutting it awful close.   Our Heavy Cav average charge is 16" so no way to avoid the Grapeshot.  Someone needs to confirm move and if the Grapeshot has a move and shoot penalty, not sure.

Noght

I don't see why it wouldn't Noght.

Straight from the BRB pg 40:

Models that moved for ANY reason during the preceeding Movement or Magic phase will have less time to aim, making their shots less accurate and suffering a shooting modified of -1.

I think the OK army book will nullify that rule...
I don't have the newest AB of OK, but this is what is mentioned on the GW site for the Ironblaster:

Quote
Jeremy Vetock from Games Development says: The first few times I used an Ironblaster I fielded it as I would a cannon, which is pretty nasty. However, the Ironblaster can do more - it is a move and fire chariot with a special Strength 10 grapeshot blast. It is pulled by a powerful Rhinox and crewed by an Ogre (okay, there is a Gnoblar Scrapper on there too, but I think you know who'll cause most of the damage). So move up close, shooting as you go and then charge in combat or unleash with some Strength 10 grapeshot! Try advancing along one side of the battlefield, as you might get some spectacular flank shots into vulnerable enemy formations (armoured knights being my favourite target).

He mentions getting up close (short range).  So moving and shooting + short range (hitting on 5's) isn't too bad.