Topic: Essential Tactical Manoeuvres

[FriscoEmpire]

It would be great to assemble a Tactical Primer covering all of the most essential (and effective) maneuvers for Empire troops.  Everything from basic tactics involving detachment counter-charges, tarpitting, redirecting, etc., ... on through more advanced tactics for cavalry sweeps, flank attacks, use of strategic reserves, user of skirmishers, and clever use of specific characters, battle prayers, magic items, etc.

Anyone caring to contribute could post with the tactic listed as the subject (perhaps with "Offensive" or "Defensive" in parenthesis after it), then a short description of when and how the tactic or maneuver works best, ideally supplemented by a diagram or photo.

Does this sound interesting to anyone?  Has anyone assembled anything like this already?

[strollinthewoods]

Hell yeah, its interesting. And would be a golden thing for new gamers to have it all in one place.  If I can find the time, I will try to contribute.

[strollinthewoods]

This could be a nice little (huge) project that many can participate in during the somewhat slow summer months.  People can come up with topics that ought to be included, and others, or themselves can do the work of writing it down, and explaining it in an informative manner.

The goal, as I see it, could be a nicely done searchable pdf. With index and coherent visuals.

I would include everything, and not only the things you can do with the empire troops, so you are prepared for what your opponent is trying to pull on you. So you know the signs to look out for, and prepare appropriately.

I have had quite a few games against a wood elf friend of mine with my empire the last couple of weeks. And it feels like there is a whirlpool in the centre of the map- let me try and explain the Eagle drop.

-Before I start- there should also be a discussion as to what one calls stuff, so even though Im making up a name for something that I dont know a name for,  does not mean it cant be changed.- maybe there already is a jargon for it that Im just not aware of.

There is established tactics that we call a speedbump that mainly help dictate flow of time, enabling countercharging. And we have established jargon when we talk about re-directors- that used to mainly be a unit that fled from a charge, and pulled the charging unit out of harms way.

(The double flee re-directors should be explained in detail.)

Both of these of course should get lots of attention, as there are many things to consider, and small details thats of great importance.

What I referred to as the eagle drop, though is somewhat of a mix between the two. Meaning that the eagle does not flee from the charge, but it does not work as a speedbump either. What it does, is stop forward momentum, and turn incoming units 90 Degrees.

Using the fact that you only pay attention to the front rank when you calculate if you are in the front of flank, you put down the eagle in such a way that it blocks the target unit from moving forward, and forces it to align 90degrees if it charges. Let me draw a diagram.


The knights in this diagram has to align to the front arc of the eagle if they charge.

The nice part from the eagle players perspective is that this move makes an overrun pretty much useless most of the time.. as going sideways seldom brings you closer to your foe. So you must instead opt to restrain, if you break the eagle, or kill it, and do a reform. But you pretty much only move 2 inch forward. So if you want to keep your opponent pretty much exactly where he is, and not move forwards then this is a very good way to do it.

And when you play vs woodelfs, this will very likely occur when you are about 15" away, and get into the short range of their bows, .. they keep you there, unable to charge, and shoot you to pieces.


Hm. a jargon watch could be helpful-- anyone having read the dv rebels guide would have an inkling of what Im hinting at.  Like the word speedbump, -- we should explain what the community usually refers to when they use this word.- personally I use it as aforementioned when
im talking about a unit that sacrifices itself in order to postpone a fight until the next phase, so counter charges can be made in the same round as the actual fighting takes place.  My nr 1 tactic when I play with my dark elfs. Not so much with the empire.

Re-directors: a unit much like the speedbump unit, that aims to re-direct a enemy unit so that it does not get into hand to hand combat with its intended target at all. Somewhat a more difficult task in 8ed, because of the way reform works, -- but still a way to by precious time.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Very nice and promising. I will gladly contribute to-night when I have access to Battle Chronicler and Photobucket again.

strollin, "re-director", while established to some extent, must be the worst misleading jargon of all times. It's probably obvious but let's get it out of the way regardless: Redirecting is the rule that allows an attacker to chose a different target if the first one flees. What our 5 archers or Eagles do is to divert.

[FriscoEmpire]

Excellent example of a tactic explained, especially with the inclusion of a diagram.  Very well done.

And I think we should be sure to treat this thread as a place to post as many tactics as possible — and I'll then happily help go through them in the end and compile it all into a downloadable PDF file, even including actual photos of troops.  (I've got about 6,000 points of professionally-painted Empire, and I can borrow enemy troops from guys at my GW store nearby for photo shoots.) 

What we don't want is for this thread to become a place for arguing over tactics.  Instead, if you have a new spin on something someone else writes up, simply list it in the title as a "Supplement" and give your individual approach. 

For the most part, though, let's try to stick to the solid and accepted as the big entries, with extras tacked on as supplementary ideas.  For example, you'll have one entry showing the use of 10 archers in the role of Diverters, giving a few possible reasons or follow-ups to that tactic (e.g., getting an enemy slanted in relation to your main block so you can charge their flank, or getting them to pursue / overrun so you can sweep them from behind and hit them with knights).  That would be the main entry ("Archers as Diverters").  But then maybe someone else has been really successful at using that tactic ... combined with laying down a crossfire with some Outriders sweeping out from a protected flank, with some added intention that plays into the mauling about to ensue.

In short — solid, straightforward entries for each main tactic (stuff most experienced generals would happily agree with) ... followed by shorter supplementary ideas or variations that have proven themselves in battle and are worth others giving a go as well.

If even a dozen or so of us were to knock out one or two tactics here, I think it would build momentum and become a huge resource for everyone, not only beginners.

[mr chumley warner]

Feigned Deathstar Teaser .

Basically in a stand off scenario, you advance your deathstar , he responds with his large bloock, which you then hold up using a flyer mid field.

Maybe a Captasus heavily armoured etc. Once blocked , you then hold the centre and can counter his death star ort large block with knights or state troops.

It's like showing him your big unit, drawing out his response, then trapping it for the multi pronged  kill.

Is like chess , drawing out his Queen

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Feel free to pull from my charts on the Griffon Formation:  http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=42921.0

Excellent idea you have here-  but don't expect input to come flooding in.  Things like this take a long time to accumulate; a large portion of net surfers are Lurkers and won't take the time to contribute.

Over time, when I come up with other ideas worthy of graphs, I will post them here for you.   

[FriscoEmpire]

That detailed description of your Griffon Formation is SO awesome. Brilliantly done!

Everything contributed so far is great.  I'm surprised no one has compiled a bunch of this stuff before.  It's pure gold.

[Baron Threepwood]

Of course while we are using elf tactics don't forget charging a unit behind a unit you hope to break with a flyer allowing your soldiers to fight twice in one turn! I have had luck with this using IC knights with a TGM and Balthisar.... a captasus would probably be the better choice though!

But as to tactics i often hope to get Raging tornado and turn around a unit to keep it in the field longer for my Hellblaster (of course this is more of a luck than a tactic)

[strollinthewoods]

strollin, "re-director", while established to some extent, must be the worst misleading jargon of all times. It's probably obvious but let's get it out of the way regardless: Redirecting is the rule that allows an attacker to chose a different target if the first one flees. What our 5 archers or Eagles do is to divert.

This is good stuff.  I am used to call it a re-director -- in 6th that was what they actually did,  - they changed the direction of incoming enemy units.
And the posibility to acually re-direct as its written in 8ed was very very limited, as you only go to redirect a charge if you actually hit a new unit when you followed the first that fled.

Talking about speedbumps and diverters may make more sence than re-directors. At least it may be far less confusing for new players. Good call Solar.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

That detailed description of your Griffon Formation is SO awesome. Brilliantly done!

Appreciate  it.   

All I used was powerpoint and changed the slides into .jpegs.  If anyone wants the file, PM me and I will send it to you so you can create similar pics for posting.

Our new detachment rules give us lots of options- so I hope you can generate some good feedback, Frisco.

Talking about speedbumps and diverters may make more sence than re-directors. At least it may be far less confusing for new players.

I started calling them diverters too in order to avoid confusion.

[warhammerlord_soth]

Love the idea.


I won't contribute to this, because my agenda is overfilled already, but I'll gladly assist in organising threads etc. Just give me a shout.

[FriscoEmpire]

I'm eager to see if some of the more experienced generals will post more of their successful strategies and tactics, ideally with images.  I love what I've seen so far, including the reference to the separate thread with the Griffon Formation. 

If we can get together at least a dozen of these, I'll compile it all into a really slick PDF file that everyone can download.  It would be great to eventually have about twenty core strategies with a handful of tactical variations under each.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

I am working on another installment for the Tactica.

Hopefully it will help stimulate some thought and get this thread going.   

[strollinthewoods]

Time for another move, related to the eagle drop.

What you need for this particular move, though it can easily be approximated with a variety of units, is:

A fast cav unit with champion.
A character with the crown of command.

I have 5 outriders with champ, and a general of the empire on an Imperial pegasus in my list.

You could use pistolers, and cheaper characters to carry the crown, etc, but you need to consider what multipurpose your units have in your list. A cheaper combo is in essence more expensive if you cant use it in a worthwhile fashion in the turns your not doing this move.

So this move does pretty much the same thing as the eagle drop, but with some added details.

First, is the champion that you position on the end of the unit.  REMINDER moves like this always work best against single Initiative units.

When you want to stop an incoming enemy unit, you march forward and position yourself like this.


So far this is the same as the eagle drop, and behaves in the same manner, making your enemy unit turn 90 Degrees to close the gap, and hits you in your flank of your fastcav. 

Adding the champion in the unit on that side, against single initiative units, ensures that only 1 model dies, and you can always make your breaktest, and flee roll.

¤Remember, running sideways is not something that your opponent is very keen on doing, so its a fair chance he will reform instead, and turn back towards your main battle line.

¤When you get to make a flee roll, you always have a 50 % chance with fastcav, and higher against infantry, to escape, and not loosing any points.

When you really want to pin down your incoming foe, and hit him hard in the flanks, is when your Crown bearer comes into play.

You just add him to the ecuation, like this.


Your crown bearer cant be killed, and you pin down the enemy with its flank towards your battle line-- please insert hard hitting unit with chariot support of your own flavor to counter charge in your upcoming turn.


I use outriders, as they can remain stationary and still make good use of themselves until I need them. With pistolers, you really must get up and close, and risk loosing them before they can be of assistance when you really need them.

So I have a unit of 6 demigryphs, with the general on pegasuss, so he get the added look out sir, and have the outriders right next to them, pounding away with bullets until they are needed.

These two units alone, gives a whole variety of options to tackle incoming foes. 


A note regarding outriders:  Vanguard is superb on these guys. Not beeing able to fire with handgunners if you get first round always feels like such a waste, and the main reason I like crossbowmen. Though, vanguarding just that 1" inch that's needed is just superb. You get to shoot in the first turn guaranteed.   

[strollinthewoods]

While Im in the swing of things, I thought I`d include the Steam tank pivot.

Useful if you intend to be aggressive with the steam tank, and want to go as far forward as possible in the first turn.

Deploy your steamtank sideways as ilustrated to the left.  When you do your pivot, as random movement rules dictates you will get further ahead than if you just deployed in a forward facing fashion to begin with- illustrated on the right.

If you play a more defensive counter attack style of play, where you let your opponent come to you, it can be an idea to deploy the steamtank further back in your deployment zone.  This because i needs to go forward in order to align its cannon. There is no way around this fact, and if you deploy it on the 12" line, and realize you would like to shoot with it, it must go forward to do so.

Better to deploy back, and just go 1d6 forward, when you plan to use it in a shooting fashion the first couple of turns.

[Holy Hand Grenade]

I like your style Strollin'.  Sneaky, sneaky.

The champ and Hero trick would work once against my crew-  after that, they would be prepared for it.  (But that is when you throw something new at them!)

[strollinthewoods]

Thats the beauty of it Holy, its not really sneaky, its just solid play, as day 9 would put it.

I dont rely on it to catch my opponent off guard, I just rely on it to work, and it does.. Knowledge wont get his unit past my block- he should start early on to find ways to get rid of my outriders, and general -- This is what I expect from good players, and its as it should be.

This is one reason I think warhammer should be played with open lists as a standard, better generals would surly follow.

[FriscoEmpire]

Question for strollinthewoods . . . .

I tried sending this to you through the personal message feature to keep this thread cleaner, but I don't think it went through.  I'm hoping you can answer this because I think I'm missing a fundamental rule here.

With regard to your Fast Cav Tactic — I'm assuming you're not just declaring a flee reaction and trying to get them to chase you, so you must be letting them attack your flank ... in order to expose THEIR flank to your larger unit.  (Right?) 

But when you say "Adding the champion in the unit on that side, against single initiative units, ensures that only 1 model dies, and you can always make your break test, and flee roll" . . . I'm wondering how it is that only 1 model can die.

If they pivot around and bring three models into base contact with your champion on the end, they'll have those three models and the three supporting models behind them all attacking your flank.  That's six attacks.  Say they all hit, and somehow they all wound, and by some further quirk of fate none of your saving throws works  . . . don't those excess wounds carry through to the rest of the unit?

(And if they win the combat, can't they execute a free combat re-form to face back toward your main battle line, leaving your cavalry on their flank if they want, as long as the models in base contact remain so — and where you can only re-form by passing a Ld test adjusted for the combat result modifier?)

I think my main question is most important though.  I've been under the impression that wounds inflicted on the flank carry through to the ranks beyond, just as they would when you're attacking the front of a unit.  Please correct me on this if I'm wrong about that. 

Thanks!

[strollinthewoods]

With regard to your Fast Cav Tactic — I'm assuming you're not just declaring a flee reaction and trying to get them to chase you, so you must be letting them attack your flank ... in order to expose THEIR flank to your larger unit.  (Right?) 

That is right.- though keeping them in place were you know he will be, so you can make a sure bet charge with your counters is the main thing to accomplish when you do this to pin him down... He can not opt to flee when you send in the heavy hitters.

At the top of my head, without checking in the rulebook I think its the opposite way-that is if it was not the champ standing on the side, but he was inside the unit, and not actually being hit, he would indeed die from the over-flow of wounds compared to models in the unit. When its the champ champ taking the hurt, I do not think it gets transfered-- though I feel the urge to check this right now.-- 2 sec.

Note that any extra wounds inflicted upon a champion do not carry over onto the rest of the unit — once the champion is slain, excess wounds are lost. p 93

Yes Im indeed right, the champion is a sure thing against enemies with a single Initiative. And it will also reduce damage against units with multiple initiative stats.

This is a good time to mention that many monsters are such foes- you dont take stomp damage because you are mounted, so all monsters with only regular attacks will only ever kill the champ.(hydra handlers is a problem though)

This is important when you use this move without the addition of the Hero- because it preserves your unit, and every point saved is worth its weight in gold- and much more so with units that are suited to do supplementary roles like speedbumping- because you get to use them again in the same battle..  in essence doubling your number of support  if  you like.

Nothing that makes me quite so glad as having 2 harpies left after a speedbump move-- I know so very well I will make use om them again at a later stage in the game.

The thing that makes me deadly with my dark elf msu, is that I don't take charges that might easily fail.  That is, almost all charges I do, is against opponents that are pinned down, or as a result of a speedbump move- (I think I shall talk about the basics of speedbumps later today if I have time.)   I wait for my node to show itself.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I'd rather see your node than your baculum.

[strollinthewoods]

wikipedia tells me baculum is non present in the human body

-- though rereading my post, I see where you are coming from .. and here I was being happy having colored it the right orange color and stuff, not noticing the pretty obvious thing that is wrong with that sentence.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Ah, forgive me, that was a jest sometime ago. You don't want to know how many members (ROFL) claimed to possess one... 

And I'm getting completely OT anyways, sorry for that. The champion tactic is in fact pretty cool although timing is of the essence, as you only have one Champ and might only survive one round.

Everyone is probably aware of the diverting tactic with some archers by now. I have experienced a couple of problems with this lately against hordes on cluttered battlefields, as a horde can sometimes contact the archers in such a fashion that it will still hit a relevant target behind with its overrun. Positioning the archers at a right angle as shown above in one pic alleviates this problem but then caution has to be taken if the enemy has a second unit that could rear charge first. This isn't always problematic, as if they entangle themselves or get into each other's way that's good for us.

[warhammerlord_soth]

Ah, forgive me, that was a jest sometime ago. You don't want to know how many members (ROFL) claimed to possess one... 

They might. Just not in their bodies, and even that is not impossible with a good stab... 

[Holy Hand Grenade]

Ah, forgive me, that was a jest sometime ago. You don't want to know how many members (ROFL) claimed to possess one... 

Delusions of grandeur...!