Topic: Great Weapons vs Lances?

[Hieronymus]

This has been something that I have been thinking about a bit over the last few days; if you take a big Knight unit, is it better to have Greatweapons or Lances?

 The example in my current list would be 12 Inner Circle Knights (with Arch Lector and BSB). By default I went for the Lances and Shields, as I thought that  "1+ with a parry after the first round that's pretty ok", but I've recently been thinking, "Would a 2+ save, with a S6 attack be much worse?".

To be perfectly clear - this block is not actually a combat block, unless my opponent is S3.

***

I'm vacillating on this issue, and I was wondering if any of you had any insights into which was better. At the moment, I find myself leaning towards Greatweapons, especially when combined with the Arch Lector buffs. At only I3, I'm not convinced that I'll be missing out on much, and to be honest, the troops that usually go for Greatweapons, tend to have even lower initiative anyway, so I'll still be going before them.

Any thoughts/math-hammer/anecdotes would be appreciated. I could just play a couple of practice games I suppose, but it's always good to ask as well I find!

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

There are a number of previous threads on this issue. The general conclusion one can draw from those seems to be that it depends on which adversary you are facing. Note that mounted models do not get the parry save from HW & shield.

[Hieronymus]

I did look back a bit, but I confess I didn't look that hard.

You do get a 5+ ward from the AL on a bound Lvl3, which is pretty good if you can get it off.

I'll look back through the Forum, wasn't sure if there was one that dealt with the new Empire and 8th, so I thought I'd just post.

Thanks for your response.

[Noght]

The choice is this:

1+ Armor Save, Str 6 on the charge, Str 4 round 2 vs  2+ Armor Save, Str 6 ASL.

Min/Max says take the Lances.  Fluff says take what you want.  I have 13 old White Wolf Knights that I've been using because I like how they look.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Both are useful. For ICK I personally recommend lances, since S4 is already relatively good. Of course 12 ICK are a combat unit - they're your hammer, to decide a combat in which a block holds someone in place.

Hammer Knights are very good to do the job of said infantry block themselves, especially against S3. Ini 3 isn't anything to write home about but it has the advantage that it can much more easily be boosted, for example when you're fighting a monster.

[TCWarroom]

I think lances but there is no parry from horseback. 1+ is too good to pass up.

[Hieronymus]

Interesting, Lances seem to be the prevalent opinion.

Just checked the BRB, can't find anything say Cavalry can't use parry saves - where are you getting that from? Is it an FAQ?

I've also got two units of Demigryphs and a Steam Tank in this list. I've still got a few things to smash people up with.

I suppose it entirely depends about who I would match it up against. I3 is fairly weak.

My understand is: If you have troops that have low initiative (by that I mean I2 and below), they strike last anyway, so might as well give them Greatweapons. I think that throwing in Empire knights against high s units is probably not a good idea anyway, so they are there to grind out hordes of fairly unimposing units. You've got the AL there for prayers, which granted, you might not get off, but are still a one-dice (risky) cast, and that's better. 

I'll have to think on it some more. I'll post my list if anyone has any one thinks that is germane.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

BRB p.88:
As a final caveat, the parry save cannot be claimed by Frenzied warriors - they're far too bonkers to think overmuch about their own personal safety - nor can it be used by mounted models.

[Hieronymus]

Wow, I read that exact paragraph and completely glossed over that. Whoops.

Thanks for pointing it out!

+1 for Greatweapons!

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Wow, I read that exact paragraph and completely glossed over that. Whoops.

Do not worry: it happens to the best of us. Why, it even happens to me! 

[matt217th]

I prefer Lances, another vote for the +1 save.  Even against a high I army, lances would still be favoured as the increased save means more will survive to hit back.

[Quickbeam]

The only time I use lances is against dwarves and lizardmen because i have initiative on them!

[zifnab0]

I like lances because I think they look better.

I usually run a unit of 10 with greatweapons because they're painted.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

My understand is: If you have troops that have low initiative (by that I mean I2 and below), they strike last anyway, so might as well give them Greatweapons.

What do you mean? You don't have I2 troops.

The thing is, you cannot look at this unit in a vacuum. Both Light and Shadow are very popular lores with Empire players, and incidentally both have spells that affect initiative. Such spells are wasted on ASL units but can make a huge difference in other cases. And not everyone is steadfast: The monsters I mentioned aren't, chariots, characters, remnants with few remaining ranks...

[Hieronymus]

My understand is: If you have troops that have low initiative (by that I mean I2 and below), they strike last anyway, so might as well give them Greatweapons.

What do you mean? You don't have I2 troops.

Sorry, I had to recheck the ASL rules, I was working off the assumption that if you were fighting a low Initiative unit, if they could have greatweapons they would, i.e. Dwarfs, so you'd be striking before them anyway at I3. Ofc that's not the rule, you strike simultaneously, so the point is moot. Not, 'The Moot' - no Halflings here.

The thing is, you cannot look at this unit in a vacuum. Both Light and Shadow are very popular lores with Empire players, and incidentally both have spells that affect initiative. Such spells are wasted on ASL units but can make a huge difference in other cases. And not everyone is steadfast: The monsters I mentioned aren't, chariots, characters, remnants with few remaining ranks...

I agree, although my Level 4 uses Lore of Fire in this list.

[TheBelgianGuy]

For me it doesn't matter whatsoever.
I'm that guy who manages to miss with every knight but wounds once with the horses.
I'm that guy who when he has to make 4 armour saves on his lance&shield knights, throws 3x 1's.

I dunno why, but my knights are completely cursed.
Though I must say with a little help of regrowth, they do hold up an enemy unit for the entire game. I just wish they could do it on their own 

I3 is fairly weak.

I hate this part about warhammer. A 3 on a statistic is supposed to be human, or 'average'. If that's true, why are there so many units with T4 yet so few with T2? Why is a human as squishy as a goblin? It seems like 90% of the warhammer world is above average... and I don't like it!

[mr chumley warner]

This style topic has run a few times, I always concluded Lances!

The 1+ AS is crucial in ensuring your knights last out their opponent in combat.

 

[Darknight]

A stat of 3 is not "human " or "average"; it is "human average". There is a big difference. Goblins are as tough as humans are - goblinoid physiology? Orcs are tougher than humans although not any stronger.

I don't know about 90%, but a lot of the universe being better than humans is a standard fantasy trope.

[Quickbeam]

I don't know about 90%, but a lot of the universe being better than humans is a standard fantasy trope.

Well then screw fantasy! I'm gonna go play Warhammer Ancient Battles...... oh wait...... GW killed that too 

[MrDWhitey]

I don't know about 90%, but a lot of the universe being better than humans is a standard fantasy trope.

Well then screw fantasy! I'm gonna go play Warhammer Ancient Battles...... oh wait...... GW killed that too 

I feed on your tears.

WAB needed to go, it offended me.

+1 for Lances.

[Quickbeam]

I don't know about 90%, but a lot of the universe being better than humans is a standard fantasy trope.

Well then screw fantasy! I'm gonna go play Warhammer Ancient Battles...... oh wait...... GW killed that too 

I feed on your tears.

WAB needed to go, it offended me.

+1 for Lances.

Why? 

[The Peacemaker]

For me it doesn't matter whatsoever.
I'm that guy who manages to miss with every knight but wounds once with the horses.
I'm that guy who when he has to make 4 armour saves on his lance&shield knights, throws 3x 1's.

I dunno why, but my knights are completely cursed.
Though I must say with a little help of regrowth, they do hold up an enemy unit for the entire game. I just wish they could do it on their own 

And then you roll double 6's on a break test >:/
And then you give up and decide to play a horde army and start rolling 30dice and achieve 2 wounds and then your like >:/

I hate this part about warhammer. A 3 on a statistic is supposed to be human, or 'average'. If that's true, why are there so many units with T4 yet so few with T2? Why is a human as squishy as a goblin? It seems like 90% of the warhammer world is above average... and I don't like it!

Fantasy has a few different types of goblins. I know the lord of the rings goblins were roughly the size of a human, while other fantasy genre's have goblins as smaller.

[Uryens de Crux]

goblins and orcs were the first to benefit from the infamous "power creep" of 4th and 5th ed i think.

they werent that tough in 1st-3rd


anyway, Lances all the way. you can swing a greatsword from horseback and it looks silly.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Hieronymus, I wish to repeat what I said before: Both Great Weapons and Lances have merit. The former are a viable option whenever you expect a grind while the latter mean the unit is designed for the decisive charge. Inner Circle are kind of a mixed bad because they already have S4 so they can often fulfill either role with lances.

[csjarrat]

There is a role for both, small units for flanking are better with lances as they are more survivable and will remain effective for longer.
Large units of ICK with characters are a proper fighty unit, i load mine up with GW. Hopefully i can get the oriest to cast his 5++ spell on them to offset the drop in AS