Topic: Chaos Armies - CSM and Blood Pact!

[Sig]

I'm finding IG with Vendettas are the most common allies, so I'm seeing a lot of Vendettas. A couple of plasma vet squads, vendettas and plasmas on the Company Command squad is heaps of firepower fairly cheaply.

As I said before Aldaris I do like your list, lots of different threats, it's only the Havocs I'd change and you want the guaranteed anti air they offer so that's cool. It's such a better codex, wow.

[Aldaris]

As for the blood pact, sure they work, but I prefer the cultists.  They can have T4 and autoguns for almost the same price as IG guardsmen without the need for all the extra stuff from an allied contingent.

T4 and autoguns makes 'em 7 points a pop. That is significantly more expensive than a guardsman!

Besides, I want some stuff from the allied contingent...
 

It's such a better codex, wow.

It really is!

[Crimsonsphinx]

Ive been looking at the book a lot over the past couple of days.  Ive been mostly comparing it to the fourth edition book though, to get some idea of what units should be doing. 

I don't really like cultists.  Too expensive for inferior guardsmen.  With an autogun they cost 40% more, have a worse armour save, worse access to heavy and special weapons and no orders. Then there is the fact that you CAN actually just buy guardsmen as an allied platoon.  So yea, I wouldn't bother!

Recently I have been using lascannons in my devastator squads and I think I will continue this with havocs.  Lascannons have turned out to be very points efficient in games I have played, especially now glances dont shake or stun.  I don't see why I would pay an obscene premium for flakk missiles either, when you could just take autocannons for a lot less points.  I think I would rather take the dragon, which can have a Hades autocannon for anti air, or a Daemon Prince, than that havoc squad.  Or an Allied Bloodthirster/Vendetta.

Vindicators are a tricky beast.  Exceptional on paper, in reality their short range is a hindrance and they have no long ranged backup.  Without having access to lash anymore, vindicators best use has been removed.  I did use vindicators a lot in the 4th edition book, with daemonic possession.  Nowadays I think daemonic possession is totally pointless.  I can't honestly remember the last time I had a shaken or stunned on a tank.  They are nearly all glanced to death or blown up.

I never liked defilers, but four hull points and an invulnerable save with It will not die, makes it considerably more survivable.  I have never been a fan of battle cannons though, my guard army rarely uses regular Russ tanks. 

[phillyt]

I thought guardsmen were 5 points.  A cultist with an auto gun is also 5.

To be honest, a unit of cultists 35 strong with an apostle and the mark of khorne are hell on wheels.  Don't see whats not to like about them!

[Aldaris]

I thought guardsmen were 5 points.  A cultist with an auto gun is also 5.

Yes. But a Cultist with T4 is 7. And the Cultist has way less weapon options and a worse armor save. They can be interesting for some things, namely sitting on an objective for basically free, becoming Plague Zombies with Typhus or forming a big blob as a meatshield for some badass fearless HQ, but on an objective point-by-point comparison they lose out to IG infantry.

Cultists certainly aren't bad, but when you're already looking at Codex: IG to help fill some of the weaknesses of the CSM one you might as well get the better option.

To be honest, a unit of cultists 35 strong with an apostle and the mark of khorne are hell on wheels.  Don't see whats not to like about them!

See above. They have their uses, certainly.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I thought guardsmen were 5 points.  A cultist with an auto gun is also 5.

To be honest, a unit of cultists 35 strong with an apostle and the mark of khorne are hell on wheels.  Don't see whats not to like about them!

Unless I am mistaken that squad isn't very cheap Philly, and you have attached a HQ to it adding even more points!  I will admit that I have no real idea what the Apostle does, simply because I have no intention of using one.  Does it add fearless to a squad?  Or just rerolls like a chaplain?

You could do far more carnage spending the points on a unit of chaos terminators.  Admittedly they are not troops [which is what Abaddon should have made troops not chosen] but if you are interested in simply damage dealing/absorbing potential then these should be top of the list.

Those 7 point nurgle cultists don't work out especially good value compared to say ork boys either!

[phillyt]

Aldaris:  With the exception of fliying transports and maybe slightly cheaper battle cannons, what weaknesses does the CSM book have that require coverage from an IG list?

I have never in my gaming career been nervous about being shot by a unit of vanilla IG guardsmen.  Even with 3 autocannons and grenade launchers, they just aren't a real threat to most units.  Certainly none in my two main armies (ork and necron).  So assuming that all other models in their price range need to perform similarly is not really the point.  CC cultists are where it is at.  At 6 points each, a unit of 35 is 230, plus the 100 point apostle.  You get around 8 terminators at that price.  The cultists get 105 rerollable attacks at S4 with the mark of khorne.  They end up forcing in the neighborhood of 35 - 40 wounds tests on anything they are fighting.  The terminators won't kill enough of them to matter really.  That doesn't include the couple shots they get on the way in.  Really, 330 isn't a bad price to pay and can be fluffy.  Even without the apostle, the unit is very potent in CC.  I am not a fan of the mark of nurgle or any of the other marks on them.  If not khorne, I would probably leave them unmarked.  Plague zombies are okay too, though not good for much other than tarpiting.

[Aldaris]

Aldaris:  With the exception of fliying transports and maybe slightly cheaper battle cannons, what weaknesses does the CSM book have that require coverage from an IG list?

Cheap flyers that can transport troops, are durable and kill other flyers dead.
 

[phillyt]

So really the only thing the CSM lack are vendetta.  Which, like the valkirye, are sickeningly underpriced!

But then again, if someone took the time to modify and paint Blood Pact, I would love to see it.  I hate when people drop vanilla IG on the table and say "Blood Pact!"

[Aldaris]

So really the only thing the CSM lack are vendetta.  Which, like the valkirye, are sickeningly underpriced!

They absolutely are!

But no, they don't lack Vendettas neccessarily - they lack a good fighter capable of bringing down other aircraft. I don't think the Dragon is good enough in that regard. I can see a use for it with a baleflamer, but then it's strictly air to ground. But in the other configuartion? A single Hades AC on a 170 point model with BS3? thanks, I'll pass.

But then again, if someone took the time to modify and paint Blood Pact, I would love to see it.  I hate when people drop vanilla IG on the table and say "Blood Pact!"

Since I still have a lot of unpainted IG - I think I'll do it. Already found some heads that will make adequate Grotesks.

[Fandir Nightshade]

I liked the Aldaris plans for making proper Blood pact models...and going with a red colour scheme would also work later for pure IG armies.

[Sig]

Cultists are immediately overpriced once they're given any options other than a flamer IMO. I agree with Aldaris on the dragon - bale flamer or don't use him. Way too expensive. Would love to see the blood pact.

Dud of the list is the Land Raider though. Would have been so simple and they'd sell expensive plastic kits. Oh well.

[Aldaris]

Now, if it had been two Hades ACs on the Dragon as the first rumors implied the points cost would have been acceptable. Still expensive, but survivable and with good firepower. With a single one it's just overcosted and undergunned.

[phillyt]

I have found ground defense adequate for anti-air at this point.  But then again, I haven't played any vendetta heavy IG armies either.

[MrAbyssal]

The Forge World Chaos Guard conversion kits look pretty good as well.

[phillyt]

A buddy has a bunch of them.  They are awesome.

[Aldaris]

This could be workable Chaos/IG Force with CSM as the main detachment, unlike the previous try in the other threat were the CSM were the ones allied in.


Khorne Worshippers with a Blood Pact Death Brigade detachment

***************  1 HQ + 1 Ally  *************** 

Chaos Lord
- Mark of Khorne
- VotLW
   - Axe of Blind Fury
+ - Sigil of Corruption
   - Chaos Bike
 - - - > 160

[IG] Company Command Squad
- Company Commander
- 4 x Plasmagun
+ Chimera
   - Multilaser
   - Heavy Flamer
 - - - > 165

***************  3 Troops  + 1 Ally *************** 

8 CSM
Bolt Pistols, CCWs
- Melta
- Mark of Khorne
   + Aspiring Champion
      - Bolt Pistol
      - 1 x PW
      - 1 x Combi Melta
+ - Rhino
 - - - > 200

10 CSM
Bolt Pistols, Bolters
- Plasmagun
- Plasmagun
   + Aspiring Champion
      - Bolt Pistol + CCW
      - 1 x Combi Plasma
+ - Rhino
 - - - > 215

10 CSM
Bolt Pistols, Bolters
- Plasmagun
- Plasmagun
   + Aspiring Champion
      - Bolt Pistol + CCW
      - 1 x Combi Plasma
+ - Rhino
 - - - > 215

[IG] Veteran Squad
- 3 x Plasmagun
+ Chimera
   - Multilaser
   - Heavy Flamer
 - - - > 170

***************  2 Fast Attack + 1 Ally *************** 

[IG] 1 Vendetta
 - - - > 130

7 Chaos Bikers
- Mark of Khorne
- Icon of Wrath
- VotLW
- 2 x Melta
   + Champion
      - Bolt Pistol
      - 1 x PW
 - - - > 226

8 Raptors
- Mark of Khorne
- Icon of Wrath
- 2 x Flamers
   + Raptor Champion
      - 2 x Lightning Claws
 - - - > 217

***************  1 Heavy Support + 1 Ally *************** 

7 Havocs
- 4 x Autocannon
  - - - > 141

[IG] Manticore
- Heavy Flamer
 - - - > 160

1999

Hmm.

[phillyt]

Gaaaaayy.

Obviously exploiting the vendetta and in no way fluffy!

[Aldaris]

"Exploiting the Vendetta"?
 

I assure you, the Vendetta is not being used against its will.

Also, explain how it is "in no way fluffy"?
Yes, less Marines than Guardsmen would be fluffier, but I wanted to give CSM as primary a go.

[Quickbeam]

Wouldn't using the forge world servants of slaughter list be better for this? Much more fluffy.

[Sig]

I like it!

[Crimsonsphinx]

Hey Aldaris,

Can I ask why you have gone for raptors over warp talons?  It seems to me that warp talons are pretty good value for their points, where raptors are more or less poor mans assault marines. 

[Aldaris]

Wouldn't using the forge world servants of slaughter list be better for this? Much more fluffy.

Don't have the IA books!

Hey Aldaris,

Can I ask why you have gone for raptors over warp talons?  It seems to me that warp talons are pretty good value for their points, where raptors are more or less poor mans assault marines. 

8 Warp Talons with MoK would come to 282 points, with no guns. I haven't actually looked at the math, so let's do that now. We'll assume 8 flamer hits total for the 2 flamers the raptors bring.

8 Warptalons MoK against Marines:
33 attacks, 16,5 hits, 12,375 dead marines.

8 Raptors MoK, IoW, LC Champ, 2 flamers against Marines:
28 attacks for the troopers, 14 hits, 9,3 wounds, 3,1 dead Marines. Champ: 5 attacks, 2,5 hits, 1.875 dead Marines. 5 dead total. The flamers account for another marine, so 6.

No surprise, the Warp Talons come out way on top - overkill actually.

8 Warptalons MoK against Terminators:
33 attacks, 16,5 hits, 12,375 wounds, 2 dead Terminators.

8 Raptors MoK, IoW, LC Champ, 2 flamers against Terminators:
They do 11,175 wounds total, +4 from the flamers, 15,175 wounds, 2,5 dead Terminators.

About even. The flamers might tip the scales.

8 Warptalons MoK against Orks:
12,375 dead Orks.

8 Raptors MoK, IoW, LC Champ, 2 flamers against Orks:
factoring in the armor saves, that's about 10 dead Orks. 4 more from the flamers.

Raptors are slightly better.

8 Warptalons MoK against GEQ:
33 attacks, 22 hits, 16.5 dead guardsmen.

8 Raptors MoK, IoW, LC Champ, 2 flamers against GEQ:
28 from the troopers, 18,6 hits, 15,5 wounds, 10,3 dead. Champ: 5 attacks, 3.3 hits, 2,5 dead. Total: 12,8 dead. Flamers kill another 5,3. 18,1 total.

Raptors come out slightly on top.

So, in summary: Warp Talons are better against marines in power armor. Against all other example matchups I calculated, Raptors are better. And they're 65 points cheaper. Warp Talons have a 5++, so they're slightly more survivable, but that doesn't explain the points difference.

Conclusions: my gut was right. I'll take Rators any day.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I guess its just my world where nearly everyone only uses power armour that Warp talons are where its at!  Even the players who have multiple armies, most of them still use power armour.

Really assault marines/raptors/warp talons have no business assaulting terminators!

Im seriously considering my army going back to pink, and taking up the Mark/Icon of Slaanesh across the list.  Since most of my army sports a black and pink colour scheme its characterful.  Any unit with daemon special rule, or terminators, get a lot of mileage from that combination.

Am I right in thinking the Khorne Mark/Icon combo is basically needed to bring Berserkers up to their 4th edition incarnation?  The only thing the new combo adds is counter attack.    I notice you are not using cult troops, is there any reason for that? 

[Aldaris]

Nah, Berzerkers are basically the same as the last book, with one more attack on the charge and one less in the profile. Same performance on the attack, slightly worse in a protracted fight. The Mark and Icon can more or less bring regular CSM up to Berzerker standards though, although without fearless and with one less WS.

I'm considering using Berzerkers, but the thing that gets me is their lack of special weapon options, the fact that the Land Raider got WORSE than the one in the last book and the changed disembarking/assault rules of 6th edition. Berzerkers on foot could work, but you'd need to commit to it for it to be effective I think. The other cult troops I don't use in those examples simply because the Lord doesn't have the appropriate Mark. I think pretty much all of the cult troops are viable, but not in elite.