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Author Topic: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - rothgar13's Army Lists  (Read 8198 times)

Offline rothgar13

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Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - rothgar13's Army Lists
« on: December 06, 2012, 10:43:44 PM »
Hey all,

I figured I'd use this thread to collect my ideas on Empire lists, so I'll be showing you my lists for my escalation league (going up to 2500 points in 500-point increments). Without further ado...

Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - 500 points

Core - 134 points
19 Halberdiers, Musician, Standard-Bearer [Warrior Priest goes here]

Special - 174 points
3 Demigryph Knights

Rare - 120 points
Helblaster Volley Gun

Heroes - 72 points
Warrior Priest, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armor

Grand Total: 500 points

Record: W 8/D 1/L 4

So this list is pretty basic, as most 500 pointers are - a semblance of casting in the Priest, a Gun to help me soften things up, a decent block of Halberds, and some Demigryphs. However, the main takeaway I have from this list is that 500 is really random (even by Warhammer standards), and that so much of the game hinges on low-sample-size dice rolls that what you take matters a bit less than it normally does. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed by the Volley Gun's range, though - without other artillery pieces, it doesn't see as much action as I would like it to.

Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - 1000 points

Core - 258 points
38 Halberdiers, Full Command [Arch Lector and BSB go here]

Special - 194 points
3 Demigryph Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer

Rare - 250 points
Steam Tank

Heroes - 141 points
Captain, BSB, Dawnstone, Dragonhelm, Full Plate Armor, Shield, Sword of Striking

Lords - 155 points
Arch Lector, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Great Weapon

Grand Total: 1000 points

Record: W 3/D 0/L 0

This list is all about the Steam Tank - this bad boy has won me games with minimal support from the other elements. Command on the Demigryphs helps a little, though, and the Halberdiers are markedly more useful with the extra point of Ld, Hold the Line!, and sheer numbers to take more casualties. This list has run through its opposition with next to no resistance so far, though the Halberds have struggled at times during the games.

Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - 1500 points

Core - 388 points
10 Archers [Wizard goes here]
48 Halberdiers, Full Command [Arch Lector and BSB go here]

Special - 504 points
2 x 4 Demigryph Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer

Rare - 250 points
Steam Tank

Heroes - 203 points
Battle Wizard, Dispel Scroll [Lore of Life]
Captain, BSB, Biting Blade, Dragonhelm, Full Plate Armor, Shield

Lords - 155 points
Arch Lector, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Great Weapon

Grand Total: 1500 points

Record: W 0/D 0/L 0

Now this list actually starts looking like what I expect the army to be like overall - it has a lot more Demigryphs, and the Wizard makes his first appearance in the list. He'll provide buffs, healing, and a Dispel Scroll.

Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - 2000 points

Core - 508 points
10 Archers [Wizard goes here]
48 Halberdiers, Full Command [Arch Lector and BSB go here]
5 Knights, Lances+Shields, Musician

Special - 504 points
2 x 4 Demigryph Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer

Rare - 500 points
2 x Steam Tank

Heroes - 108 points
Captain, BSB, Dragonhelm, Full Plate Armor, Shield, Warrior Bane

Lords - 380 points
Arch Lector, Armor of Meteoric Iron, Great Weapon
Battle Wizard Lord, Dispel Scroll, L4 Wizard [Lore of Life]

Grand Total: 2000 points

Record: W 0/D 0/L 0

This list is a big firepower upgrade over the lower points version in that we can finally afford our second Steam Tank, and the Wizard goes from a puny L1 scroll caddy to a L4 powerhouse. We also get our first truly dedicated chaff unit in the small Knight squad.

Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - 2500 points

Core - 628 points
10 Archers [Wizard goes here]
2 x 5 Empire Knights, Lances + Shields, Musician
48 Halberdiers, Full Command [Arch Lector and BSB go here]

Special - 744 points
2 x 4 Demigryph Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer
2 x Great Cannon

Rare - 500 points
2 x Steam Tank

Heroes - 249 points
Captain, BSB, Biting Blade, Dragonhelm, Full Plate Armor, Shield
Captain, Charmed Shield, Full Plate Armor, Imperial Pegasus, Sword of Might

Lords - 379 points
Arch Lector, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armor, Talisman of Preservation
Battle Wizard Lord, Dispel Scroll, L4 Wizard [Lore of Life]

Grand Total: 2500 points

Record: W 1/D 0/L 1

So this list is pretty much what most people are running for competitive Empire (double STank + Cannon + DGK goodness), with a couple of "flavor to taste" edits - I've decided to put my faith in the Halberdier Horde backed up by Battle Prayers and Hatred for my Core fighting block instead of the Inner Circle Knights, the Wizard has Life because healing Steam Tanks is boss, and I've decided to field my BSB on foot with a 2+ save and trust Battle Prayers to get him a Ward save if he needs it. I run 2 small units of Knights and a Captasus to hunt down chaff, as well as an Archer bunker to keep the Wizard safe.

Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - 2500 points

Core - 768 points
10 Archers [Wizards go here]
10 Archers
- Detachments: 2 x 5 Archers
2 x 5 Empire Knights, Lances + Shields, Musician
48 Halberdiers, Full Command [Arch Lector and BSB go here]

Special - 744 points
2 x 4 Demigryph Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer
2 x Great Cannon

Rare - 740 points
2 x Helblaster Volley Gun
2 x Steam Tank

Heroes - 369 points
Captain, BSB, Dragonhelm, Full Plate Armor, Shield
Captain, Charmed Shield, Full Plate Armor, Imperial Pegasus, Sword of Might
2 x Master Engineer

Lords - 379 points
Arch Lector, Enchanted Shield, Heavy Armor, Talisman of Preservation
Battle Wizard Lord, Dispel Scroll, L4 Wizard [Lore of Life]

Grand Total: 3000 points

Record: W 0/D 0/L 0

This list is for some larger games which I am shooting to play sometime in the future - I grab some Volley Guns to round out my shooting arsenal, and I bring some dedicated chaff/redirectors in the Archers.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 04:04:35 AM by rothgar13 »

Offline PeytonS

  • Posts: 328
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2012, 10:58:36 PM »
I think you should put the 2 helblasters and 2 engineers in the description of the list! :icon_mrgreen:

There's a whole heap of dakka in this list, do you find 10 handgunners is enough to drive off fast cav or do you also rely on shots from the archers and maybe a banishment or two?  I often finding myself being forced into firing the helblaster at chaff that threatens it and I think a unit of handgunners can work in a list for taking wounds off monstrous cav as well!  So they might be something i'll be testing out if you find it works.

I've been running a general on griffon and though I've been doing well with it I wouldn't reccomend it!   :icon_mrgreen: I think the war altar is a tougher more competetive choice that gives you more options.

Cheers

Peyton

Offline rothgar13

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Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2012, 11:20:53 PM »
Whoops, forgot about that. Thanks. :icon_redface:

I'm definitely experimenting with the number of Handgunners I need to keep my artillery safe, but my math says that 2 turns of shots should either wipe most fast cav units and other flavors of war machine hunters (Dark Riders, Wolf Riders, Harpies, Sabretusks), or beat them up badly enough to make them take a Panic test (and usually a charge from the gunners would finish them off). And if there's a particularly resilient (or numerous) unit headed their way, I can always pump the shots from both units at them.

Thanks for the info regarding the Griffon, as it's more of a whimsical alternate than anything else. The fact that people can and are doing well with it gives me a bit of hope, though. :icon_wink:

Offline Korolon

  • Posts: 31
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2012, 08:38:43 AM »
I'd make one of your 10 archers 5er detachements of the halberdiers - you get all the steadfast bonuses from the main block and you can throw them in the way of nasties coming towards your gunline. Otherwhise I really like your list, it is pretty much the same I would use if i'd painted up all the models ^^'.

Offline rothgar13

  • Posts: 1795
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Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2012, 03:51:58 PM »
Hm, I like that edit a lot. Consider it done.

Offline Baluc

  • Posts: 480
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2012, 04:35:59 PM »
Can you do me a favour and drop the level 4 to a level 1 with scroll, and try it out please.  :smile2: You would even get a unit of outriders with the points!

Just try it once, or maybe even twice.

Otherwise the list looks solid, you could experiment with taking a unit of IC knights instead of a second DGK unit, but its good none the less.

Offline rothgar13

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Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2012, 07:33:50 PM »
I'm not really feeling that change. I know my list is less dependent on magic than most (in fact, most of the purpose of the mage being here is to stop other mages from running me over), but I'm pretty sure that the people I play with would exploit the crap out of me if I tried to cheat on magic defense. Plus, I need something to do with my power dice apart from Prayers and Banishment, which aren't universally applicable.

Offline Baluc

  • Posts: 480
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2012, 09:29:22 PM »
I'm not really feeling that change. I know my list is less dependent on magic than most (in fact, most of the purpose of the mage being here is to stop other mages from running me over), but I'm pretty sure that the people I play with would exploit the crap out of me if I tried to cheat on magic defense. Plus, I need something to do with my power dice apart from Prayers and Banishment, which aren't universally applicable.

I like 3d6 fireball or wild form. I'm just saying try it you might find you aren't as vulnerable as you think.

Offline PeytonS

  • Posts: 328
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2012, 10:10:22 PM »
Dropping all those great light buffs that make your combat units really shine (pun intended) for a lv.1 and some outriders isn't worth it in my opinion.  And you'll be fighting an uphill battle against your opponent who brought a lv.4 and is up a minimum of +3 on you with every spell he casts.  Throwing away your buffs and letting your opponent get theirs for 15 s4 shots sounds terrible.

Cheers

Peyton

Offline The Peacemaker

  • Posts: 2081
  • Baron Karl von Balombine of Wissenland
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2012, 08:08:04 AM »
I came to comment on your handgunners from the other thread.

But first I'd like to say that you should keep your level 4 wizzard. Your demigryphs are big targets and the linch pin of your army. Almost every enemy spell will be against them so they need protecting.

The handgunners: I always used these guys in the previous codex. Even though mathhammer says you should kill, its very random. With only 10 models they tend to miss/not wound and don't even kill a single model. I always took 12 and thats when I could reliably get at LEAST 1 kill a turn. Sometimes I would get 4 or 5 kills.

Take a look at what else you can take instead of those 20 handgunners: you can get 2 units of 18 spearmen OR 2 units of 15 halberds that could just sit there and shoe away the enemy war machine hunters. You can also take 8 knights with a banner. Or 6 inner circle knights with some command options. Then fiddle with the archers to get the exact core requirement.
I think some knights is the best option because they can just sit there and enemy flankers won't even come close because they know they won't win. They are also fast so you if there are no threats you can advance them up to help out in the battle. Idealy I would say Pistoliers would complement your army because of their mobility but your full for special.

But I have to say that your overall list is pretty solid the the handgunners might work. You have lots of shooty in the rest of your army. Just be prepared for the mathhammer to fail you when it concerns 10 handgunners. You will probably have to shoot some archer shots to help out. And I'm pretty certain you'll be fireing a hellblaster at least once per game at enemy flankers.

Remember: harpies are skirmishers so they have -1 to hit. Dark elf riders will win combat if they have at least 3 models because they have hatred and horse attacks. You'll probably beat dire wolves and other weak stuff but there are alot of enemy flanking units that are tough. Like the Vamp Counts flying vargeists.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 08:13:14 AM by The Peacemaker »
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Offline Krokz

  • Posts: 646
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2012, 05:49:26 PM »
You list is very very similar to what I am playing lately. I have had times when some lame magic missile destroyed two of my archers in detachment, they panicked and ran through my army, panicked them and 500 points went off the table. Other times detachments just die and panic a warmachine. Keep BSB close to the rest of the army. :)
I would take two more archer detachments instead of 10 handgunners. Anything to throw under enemy to buy shooting rounds for volleyguns.

You will have problems with gunlines that are more efficient then yours (are not half-gunline) and have 30" range.

Offline rothgar13

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Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2012, 07:27:39 PM »
That's why I have 2 units of Demigryph Knights - small arms fire, meet 1+ armor. :icon_lol:

It's also worth noting that the only ranged weapons that have 30+ inch range are either artillery (which I can combat using my own artillery, as well as the Captasus), Longbows (can't hurt Demigryphs), or Crossbows (ditto), so I'm not terribly worried. I may very well switch out my Handgunners for more Archers if they prove ineffective, but I'm going to give them a try first. I think they'll be able to pick off weak units heading at my artillery between their shots and a charge, which is a better outcome than sacrificing a unit of Archers to buy the guns one more turn (doesn't give up VP's, earns me VP's).

@Peacemaker: The problem I have regarding the suggestion of swapping Handgunners for Knights is that it takes away the option to deploy war machines in two separate corners of the board, which lets me address more targets while still giving me the option of focusing fire in the center (this also makes it harder for a single unit of war machine hunters to run up to them and wipe them out one by one). While it's true that Handgunners will find it a bit difficult to pick off fliers because of the -1 to hit, Knights will find it almost impossible, because fliers can just swoop over them and deny them a charge. While you can then position yourself to counter-charge the fliers and wipe them out, most people would gladly trade a unit of fliers for a war machine. And I completely agree - Pistoliers would be the ideal war machine guards for this sort of army, if I had the room. I'm wracking my brain to find a way to slip them in there as we speak.

I'm not terribly worried about big and beefy stuff like Vargheists or Pegasus Knights - when something that significant is trying to get at my Volley Guns, I'll just shoot them with the gun itself, and use the Handgunners to try and pick off any survivors.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 07:30:04 PM by rothgar13 »

Offline The Peacemaker

  • Posts: 2081
  • Baron Karl von Balombine of Wissenland
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2012, 01:44:02 AM »
@Peacemaker: The problem I have regarding the suggestion of swapping Handgunners for Knights is that it takes away the option to deploy war machines in two separate corners of the board, which lets me address more targets while still giving me the option of focusing fire in the center (this also makes it harder for a single unit of war machine hunters to run up to them and wipe them out one by one). While it's true that Handgunners will find it a bit difficult to pick off fliers because of the -1 to hit, Knights will find it almost impossible, because fliers can just swoop over them and deny them a charge. While you can then position yourself to counter-charge the fliers and wipe them out, most people would gladly trade a unit of fliers for a war machine. And I completely agree - Pistoliers would be the ideal war machine guards for this sort of army, if I had the room. I'm wracking my brain to find a way to slip them in there as we speak.

Why can't you just put the knights right in front of the cannon? They enemy can fly over them but they still need to be 1" way from enemy models they did not charge.
But anyway i think your handgunners will do fine since your will to direct more firepower at the tough enemy flankers.
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Offline rothgar13

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Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 05:54:37 AM »
I think they'll do fine, yes. I still have to gather up a few more models to try this army out, though.

Also wanted to point out I made a small edit, which was to swap out the Banner of Eternal Flame on one of my Demigryph units for the Horn of Sigismund on the War Altar. As the fact that I geared the Arch Lector up implies, I plan for the War Altar to be in the thick of things, and causing Terror can help out on that front.

Offline Joey_Boy

  • Posts: 353
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2012, 10:00:51 AM »
The Lore of Life would work amazingly with this list. You only have one Prime target for Flesh to Stone, you have the DGK that can benefit from the D3/D6 regrowth, the altar and characters will benefit from the lore attribute, Dwellers is Dwellers and Throne will halp protect your wizard. All around win in a list like this.

I'm also not sold on the Pegasii BSB.  I prefer the foot BSB with FPA, enchanted shield, Sword of Might, Dawn Stone. This way you can move the charmed shield to the Lector and give him mundane armor and VHS to make him more durable against nasty enemy characters and the first WM shoot.

 

Offline Grudge_Pony

  • Posts: 4
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2012, 04:17:09 AM »
Why did you choose 50 Halberdiers instead of 40? Seems like 40 can still absorb some wounds and still maximizes attacks back?

Offline rothgar13

  • Posts: 1795
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Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2012, 04:53:08 PM »
40 Halberdiers may look like enough at first glance, but in practice it isn't - a lot of enemies out there can slay more than 10 Halberds in one round of combat, and I want to try and at least get my full complement of attacks once. Moreover, these guys are pretty much guaranteed to get into long, grindy combats, and I want them to remain combat-worthy for a while, and 40 will not get that done. Sorry I answered this late, but better late than never.

Anyway, just wanted to post a quick update. In accordance with the thread about Demigryph Knight size, I am posting a list with a bigger-than-average unit of DGK's as the center of the army, with 2 Hordes of Halberds on the flanks. Without further ado...

Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.1

Core - 660 points
10 Archers [Wizard Lord goes here]
2 x 40 Halberdiers, Musician, Standard-Bearer
- Detachments: 2 x 5 Archers [One for each unit of Halberdiers]

Special - 788 points
6 Demigryph Knights, Musician, Standard-Bearer
2 x Great Cannon
2 x 5 Pistoliers

Rare - 240 points
2 x Helblaster Volley Gun [One Master Engineer goes in each]

Heroes - 281 points
Captain, BSB, Charmed Shield, Full Plate Armor, Royal Pegasus, Shrieking Blade
2 x Master Engineer

Lords - 530 points
Arch Lector, Horn of Sigismund, Talisman of Preservation, War Altar of Sigmar
Wizard Lord, Dispel Scroll, L4 Wizard [Lore of Light]

Grand Total: 2499 points

I don't like the fact that I can't really afford to kit my War Altar with anything beyond the 4+ Ward save, but I guess at the end of the day it's more of a support piece than a complementary combatant anyhow. Thoughts on this list?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 05:01:54 PM by rothgar13 »

Offline Hieronymus

  • Posts: 447
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2012, 05:06:04 PM »
Do the Demigryph mounts get monstrous support attacks in two ranks? I didn't think that they did, but I could be wrong. Might just be that I didn't read the thread you are referring to.

Pretty nice list - looking forward to seeing some battle reports. Perhaps you could produce some YouTube Battle Reports, I always find them easier to follow.

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Offline rothgar13

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Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - v. 1.0
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2012, 06:47:32 PM »
They don't, but I'm not running them in 2 ranks unless the enemy presents me with a narrow frontage. I intend to run them 6 wide and slam them into enemy Hordes.

Offline rothgar13

  • Posts: 1795
  • Steam Tank Engineer
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - rothgar13's Army Lists
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2013, 09:58:36 PM »
Hey guys,

Just wanted to announce some major changes to this thread - first, I'll be featuring all of my lists (I am currently building my Empire force as part of an escalation league, so I have lists for every 500-point interval up to 2500) and their won/lost/draw records here. Second, I'm going to be bidding farewell to the Volley Gun after 500 points, and instituting more of a Steam Tank-centric list. Third, I'm going to experiment on what happens when you skimp on magic a bit in the 1-2k range, as it's not really a win condition for me (more like support really).

Any thoughts on these?

Offline rothgar13

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Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - rothgar13's Army Lists
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2013, 07:40:35 AM »
Another month, another edit to this list compilation. I've now decided to trim the number of Demigryphs in my list (who were going to be challenging to keep in the War Altar's Hatred bubble along with the Halberdiers), and bring even more artillery to take its place. Now, this list boasts the ability to spit out up to 4 cannonballs per turn, and my mage is a bit tougher to get to thanks to a Witch Hunter. Thoughts on these changes, or on the lists in general?

Offline kwest

  • Posts: 349
Re: Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder - rothgar13's Army Lists
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2013, 10:25:21 AM »
Just read the thread start to finish. Very interesting!

A good tactic for the wizard lord/witch hunter/archer combo is to choose a model you suspect will be used as a wizard assassin as the witch hunter's primary quarry. You can hope doing this will intimidate the model into submission, or at least give enough of an edge to finish off the assassin before it kills the wizard :)