Topic: Fighting like an Idiot

[Atchman]

We've been talking it up but it is finally here the TVI Tactica or "Fighting like an Idiot".  Hop on over to the War Room and read all THREE new articles that have appeared this week.  The article can be found here:

http://www.warhammer-empire.com/war_tvi1.htm

[Pavane]

Nice writeup.  I'm looking forward to trying a variant with 25-Spearmen/10-Swordsmen, 25-Halberdiers/10-Swordsmen/10-Swordsmen, and 20 Greatswords/10-Swordsmen, once my Swordsmen are painted.

Pavane

[Clarkarias]

Very great!!  Was looking forward to an expanded version of TVI's "tactica" for a while.  Takes some getting used to not playing with super shooty (if you started with super shootyness) but when people see all the models you deploy they're in awe...

[PetertheGreat]

Even though it is certainly a nice army, I do not think it has a real chance against an experienced player. With no magical defence to speak of, Your detachments will be quickly gone (no armour save whatsoever!) by magic.
Certainly against armies such as VC (magic + lots of units to kill off Your detachments, e.g. wolves + big chance Your detachment will not countercharge due to fear) You will not stand a chance.
The whole idea of this army, its sole "gimmick" if You want, is based on getting Yourself charged, countercharge with the detachments, and subsequently charge in the knights (preferably in the flank) next turn. A half-descent opponent will very quickly realise this and take away the detachment threat. Once this is gone, it is unit against unit, head on. A situation that is seldom favourable to an Empire army  
As I said, it is a nice list to show up with at a friendly game. But personally I do not think it is at parr with a well-balanced (Inf/Cav/Aie/Magic) Empire list.

Peter

[BAWTRM]

I'd suggest you take a better look at the tactics that need to be used when playing such an army Peter. Though it looks easily counterable it is anything but that.

Take a look at the pics and the position of the Detachments. They are way back, making it hard for things like Wolves to charge them. Even when they do the Detachment simply flees leaving the wolves stranded for a flank charge by the parent (as they cannot redirect to the parent that they could have charged in the first place). Fear can be a problem but shouldn't be too much of a problem for 2 of the regiments (and therefore their supporting detachments) because they can use the EC's leadership.
The one regiment that tends to be send of alone when faced with blocking terrain is the Griffon Banner one, who has 2 Detachments for redundancy. Failing multiple Ld7 tests is a lot less likely.
The there is magic, admittedly a weak point but the same can be said of any Empire army with a single Scroll caddy/Rod of Power, and there's quite a lot of those around doing fine!
To help 'counter' magic all the units are big. The Detachments are hard to knoch under 5 models because they are 12 big. Even a 2d6 missile will need to do well, to be able to kill enough.
And when a regiment is left without a decent Detachment some support fire of the 2 mortars can quickly make a head on engagement look a lot better for the Empire!

So don't dismiss the TVI list too easily, I play one myself and have left numerous opponents in the dust wondering where it went wrong against all those weak infantry. And this is vs competent opponents who know that Detachments should be a priority and all vs a range of armies. From 14 PD, to elite attack, MSU, Gunline, Necro summoning horde etc. etc. and of course vs balanced armies

The TVI style army is hard to play IMO. It requires a shift in how you play the game on a rather basic level. When I started this tactic I lost horribly time upon time (with the occasional win to inspire me further onwards) and now I'm getting there. There's still times when I make mistakes because I start thinking about the 'normal' way to play and when this ahppens things usually go wrong for me but when I don't the army starts to shine.
Because the army mainly relies on CR to win and uses the guaranteed numbers of ranks, banner, outnumber and flank attack/rank negation you're not left over to the fickle dice gods. Most of the time it's solely the manouver face where you win or lose.

[Atchman]

Even though it is certainly a nice army, I do not think it has a real chance against an experienced player. With no magical defence to speak of, Your detachments will be quickly gone (no armour save whatsoever!) by magic.
Certainly against armies such as VC (magic + lots of units to kill off Your detachments, e.g. wolves + big chance Your detachment will not countercharge due to fear) You will not stand a chance.
The whole idea of this army, its sole "gimmick" if You want, is based on getting Yourself charged, countercharge with the detachments, and subsequently charge in the knights (preferably in the flank) next turn. A half-descent opponent will very quickly realise this and take away the detachment threat. Once this is gone, it is unit against unit, head on. A situation that is seldom favourable to an Empire army  
As I said, it is a nice list to show up with at a friendly game. But personally I do not think it is at parr with a well-balanced (Inf/Cav/Aie/Magic) Empire list.

Peter

I've played all types of Empire armies with the exception of the "true" gunline/magic armies.  The idea of this tactica is not to change the way you play your Empire but to show a different way to play Empire.  

I like this idea a lot, but I use a lot of magic defense and reduce some of the unit sizes.  I also use Great Cannons and a Hellblaster instead of the mortar which in too many games I find to be useless.  However the agressive use of parent units, detachments and defensive cavalry I like and the tatics themselves are sound.  

You'll have to try this to be convinced.  I've been astounded on how well it works.  Tim probably should have won the Atlanta GT, except that he got hosed on a rule by a Vampire Counts player.  This is in contrast to my hardcore mostly knights army that finished mid-pack and got slightly abused by comp.  

On top of trying this you need to really understand that you don't give the other player much of a choice when it comes to charging.  The entire goal of this list is to "make" them charge you.  If the other player holds off, you combine charge him on your turn with the cavalry in support.

[PetertheGreat]

OK Atchman,

I do agree with You 100%. But what You are suggesting is identical to my armies:
A good magic defense
Cannon (= nasty-killer) + helblaster (hmmm)
Big infantry units with sizeable detachments (usually FC + archers as screen against small arms fire+magic missiles)
Cavalry in a defensive / counter-charging role

THAT is what I call a well-balanced Empire army. But it is rather different from the original list....  
I do however favour fully the use of detachments / counter-attacking cavalry. It has been said again and again, the game winner for Empire is not the ST, nor the helblaster, it's the detachment rule!

PS: By the way, I am usually up against armies like HE, VC and Tzeench that have maxed out on magic (things like 12+D3 Power dice and 3 bound spells for HE   ). That could explain my concerns about magical defenses...

[General Helstrom]

One key consideration that people tend to forget when looking at TVI's lists is that it is an aggressive army. Infantry is commonly - and mistakenly - regarded as a defensive arm. While certainly the infantry is the best defensive arm of the Empire, it is by no means limited to that role. Playing it defensively gives you more time to shoot at the enemy while he comes at you; however, if the enemy has significant ranged capacity (magic being one aspect of that), you'll want to get into combat, as soon as possible. Infantry at full march can expect to be in combat by turn three, turn four if the enemy doesn't stir at all.

If the enemy is extremely disciplined and focuses his ranged power on a single division, and gets lucky with the dice, he just might reduce that one division to below effective combat strength in three or four turns. Keep in mind that this means reducing a unit of 12 FC to below 5, a unit of 6 Knights below three, and putting a serious dent into a regiment of 30 Swordsmen. That's a lot of ranged power committed to rendering roughly a quarter of the Empire army's fighting power inoperable. The other three quarters (two more infantry divisions and the artillery) arrive unscathed. With those kinds of points committed to magic and/or shooting, the enemy's combat capacity is likely no match for what's coming in through the smoke.

That's assuming exceptional discipline on the side of the enemy, as well as broadly open lanes of fire. Keep in mind that in the TVI list, the mounted characters make deceptively juicy targets, and that there will usually be at least some scenery to provide a bit of cover from missile fire and magic - and then the list still has 4 dispel dice.

[PetertheGreat]

General Helstrom,

Not quite correct, I am afraid. He just has to target the detachments. The knights can only charge in the turn AFTER first contact. Something a stand-alone big Empire unit is not likely to survive when being charged by a half-descent enemy unit. Three or four turns is quite enough to get rid of three detachments. Concentrating magic and firepower on each one of them is one thing. The other is, that with our great leadership of 7, about half of the time You do not need to get the detachment below US 5, it will just run away after 25% casualties (been there... ). A compact set-up with an EC can help somewhat, but it is not always possible, and even then...If You have to rally and come back, it will cost You another turn to get into contact.
That is the main reason why I always use 2 detachments: a FC for flank charges and a bowmen for screening. Being skirmishers, they usually will last for 1 or 2 turns, getting the FC detachment in place with minor casualties. If there are not too many hills, of course  

[Atchman]

Not to offend, but even without detachments, TVI's units usually have leadership 9, a BSB and one unit usually has the Griffon Standard.  It would take a VERY decent unit to break through that.

[General Helstrom]

I hardly find Ld 7 a problem. Even without the EC nearby it still means a 50% chance of passing the tests - and the juicy bit begins when you realize the EC's leadership radius only needs to touch the Parent unit, the Detachments are then included as per their special rules. Ld 9 across the board, if you keep a close battle line (like you SHOULD). Yay! With Ld 9 you should be able to face Panic with confidence.

The Knights have the movement to charge right in with the leg infantry should the enemy sit really quiet until turn 4, and are every bit as nasty as a Detachment when they do so. If an Empire division is stripped of its Detachments and charged, the combination of Ld9, BSB, and 4+ AS will go a long way to keeping them in the line for one turn at least. Long enough for the Cavalry to catch up. Plus, you could always flee the charge and set the offending unit up for a flank charge by the Knights.

I do like missile screens though! A unit of six or seven Archers can stretch out to cover a Parent and its fighting Detachment, and when reduced can still cover the Detachment. As Skirmishers, they are hard to hit and can nimbly move out of the way when the time or combat nears.

Ah well, tactical theory being what it is, we could probably argue this for a while longer Fact is, TVI won a GT with this sort of army and did pretty darn good at a couple of other ones. Whether or not his tactics suit you is a matter of personal taste. I know they don't quite suit me - I pefer to have slightly more compact infantry formations (20-25 in the Parent and 8-10 in the Detachment) and adorn the army with some support units like DoW. I wouldn't be caught dead without my Pegasus Captain and like a medium-strength Magic outfit. Still, I have adopted some of the tactical principles from the TVI tactica - the aggressive use of infantry formations and a more defensive use of cavalry.

[lady avalon]

Do any of the veterans (General, Atchman) care to offer thougths on the best way to use a TVI list in an Oblique Attack? I've had some success with it, but I fer it hasn't been agianst anyoen I'd call a first rate player.

[General Helstrom]

I wouldn't go for an Oblique with TVI's "Division" order - the most suitable tactic here is a full frontal advance. The Oblique, however, requires a gradual build-up of speed from the stationary "hinge" to the mobile outer flank. The list can pull it off, but you'd want to seperate some of the cavalry units from their division and place them on the outer flank.

[Clarkarias]

I still say the best tactic with a TVI army is march forward for a turn, and sit there (depending on who you play of course).  My main opponent is Skaven, and if I move forward for a turn, I get 1-2 good rounds of shooting in before he charges me.

I've also found another good tactic with the nilla knights.  If you can isolate one unit, then use nillas in tandum.  Manuver the knights so you'll get a front and a flank no matter the position of his unit.  Then you won't have to do many wounds to still win combat.

[Atchman]

I wouldn't go for an Oblique with TVI's "Division" order - the most suitable tactic here is a full frontal advance. The Oblique, however, requires a gradual build-up of speed from the stationary "hinge" to the mobile outer flank. The list can pull it off, but you'd want to seperate some of the cavalry units from their division and place them on the outer flank.

I was thinking the same thing.  The only way it would work it to detach all of the cavalry and to put a good holding unit in the "hinge" so that your line isn't outflanked.

[lady avalon]

That's what I've been doing...

[Olav Marstokk]

I have tried the idiot style of army. It worked well but I got into trouble vs. Dwarfs and Vampire Counts. In the first case my opponent decided to stand still with three large blocks of infantry supported by thunderers, a flame cannon, a stone thrower and bolt throwers. I was outgunned. By the time I managed to charge him my forces were greatly reduced. His regiments were also positioned in such a manner that I had trouble getting the supporting charge. There was not enough room for my detachments between the dwarfs.
I must tell you, a stone thrower with the rune of accuracy and the rune of penetration is bad news.

In the latter case I was up against a magic heavy VC army, actually a necromancer army. Zombies popped up all over the place, not fun at all. My movement was hampered and the mortars were put out of action. His black guards and black knights did not have to worry too much about the detachments when he charged. The detachments were busy fighting zombies.

I cant see what I should have done differently, except try another type of army. And I don't actually have a clue how that army should be.

[cwalker]

What sort of artillery did you have vs the Dwarves??  The Cannon would have been useful vs those War Machines.  As far as engaging them you would have to start on an edge of his lines.  Its doubtful that he had a battle line the whole length of the table.  Concentrate on an edge and try to turn the line that way.  Meanwhile shoot war machines with the Cannon and thin one Dwarf unit at a time with the Mortors.

VC are tough.  Especially with that much magic.  The Rod should give you 6 dispel dice.  Use them to stop Invocation.  Let everything else go.

[el comandante]

I used this tactic pretty much and made only good experiences with it!


my army didnt have one knight, but griffonbannerunit, 2 stubborn units!
combined with detachments of 5 or 6 handgunners or 12 FC!

the idea on this army was, to make it impossible for the enemy to see a weak part, there was no point where he could easily go through. and when he arrived at my units, he lost pretty much, because of the ari and the handgunners, so he would break upon my lines...

the detachments were used to give his units a certain direction, when he charged so he need another turn to get his units in position...


the only problems that came up, where psychology and heavy magic, since i am always playing with only one caddy!

it is very difficult to play with more than 250 models, but very tactical and the imperial lines can be, if you do it right, more hard to break than dwarfen ones...

things that served me very well in this army:
EC with meteor, holy relic, van horstman
the famous pegasusrider
12 handgunners with comm. and 2x6 X-bows... that holds every flank


to the problem with zombies, coming up everywhere:
tell your oponnent that he has to place his units 1" away from your units---> that give you more than 2" between your units and you can also have the pegasusrider protecting the flanks or you just place the units on your flank a bid diagonal... its a bit hard to controll all those models, and on tourneys there will be a time problem, but if you practise a bit you will see that almost noone can harm you and your army

[Drakken]

Considering this is the main tactic I came here to here about (having watched it perform several times in person now), I have a few thoughts/ideas I'd like to bounce off people:

1.  Outside of a bad selection of characters, is it me or does Middenland seem like a nice option to use with these concepts.
(2-3 Swordsman, Tuetogen Guard make a nice addition, and the lack of artillery doesn't cause problems since not a lot is needed).
2.  Character selection actual brings up my next point....LD 8 vs. 9.  Normally, 2 Wizards would seem necessary to get to 5-6 DD (what I would call acceptable level at a US Event), but if 8 is really viable, suddenly 6 can be base (addable with Rod).  This begets the question:  is it viable?  Outside of that 1 pt, all you lose is the option to take a magic banner.
3.  Knightly Counter-attack units.  Nice survivability, and core..but it seems to me the penultimate counter-attack is still the detachment, so wouldn't Pistoliers be a better choice over knights?  Have the advantage in mobility, and can always be used to do othe things, where those small units of knights are really limited.

Just a few ideas/thoughts I've been bouncing around after a few discussions with other players....

[BAWTRM]

Some interesting thoughts there, let me give you my opinion on them.

1) The Middenland list, you're right about the character selection. Ld 8 might pull you through unless you end up facing a lot of Psychology in the form of Fear, Terror and Panic.
Artillery can be taken as rare choices (which aren't used in the TVI list) but would force you to drop either the Cannon or one of the 2 Mortars. A big dilemma IMO because I believe Artillery to be very necessary for the TVI list. The Cannon is to take out the hard targets which you would struggle with otherwise while the Mortars are necessary to thin out the enemy and give you a better edge against them in HtH. 2 of them being far more usefull than just one this is a hard choice. Still, I guess I'd drop the second Mortar.
Teutogen guard.......is expensive. I know TVI has also mused over Greatswords but he too has been reluctant. IMO Greatswords (or their Ulrican nephews) become a magnet because they go against the standard list philosophy "everything is expendable". An opponent will see them as a chance to make some good VPs!
As the infantry concept also hinges on taking large numbers of infantry for rank bonus (and keeping it even after horrendous casualties) this could be a big problem. Making your frontage 4 and taking the 'battle bus' might work, it would also allow you to scrape points from other units to beef up the Teutogen. This still could work
BTW, lack of Griffon Banner is unfortunate but that's what those Teutos are for I guess....

2)Already adressed this in the first point. One thing to add. Magic items. In the Middenland list you could have 3 heroes with a Ward save to attract fire. One 4+ and two 5+, expensive but interesting.....

3)Well here you're completely wrong IMO. Yes Pistoliers pack an enormous punch, but they are also terribly vulnerable to shooting, protracted combat and they can't take a musician.
The knights in the TVI list fullfill a big role in the overall concept. You're right in recognizing the Detachment as the main counter-assault option. So who is left over to direct the enemy away from you, or into disadvantageous positions, bait and flee from the enemy and drawing fire?
Pistoliers can't fullfill all of these rolls and Hunting Hounds (such a nice addition!) cannot either. They lack the save and the Ld to rally after fleeing or being broken.

The TVI list is very points restricted. If you take everything it needs there's really just a meager amount of points left to play with. I think you've convinced me that the Middenland list can be a very good TVI style list, if only it had some more points for some additions. I think the Middenland list would do very well in this style in a 2250 Tournament, maybe even a 2150 tourney.

I hope TVI has some more insightfull comments on this than I do.

[PANTHERLORD]

with middenheim, ive experienced that you should have Ar Ulric in a tvi style of armies.  he is a fluff supported equievelant of a dismounted elector count that can be in the swordsmen.  just a comment  

[Atchman]

The main problem is you can take the special character one, not the Ulrican one.  The other problem is no magic banner, and not enough shooting to be a true "TVI" list.

[PANTHERLORD]

ya that is the problem with middneheim. only their knights can get banners.  and multiple units of white wolves dont help very much in tvi style armies

[Calvin]

Well spamming is one way, but then you would just get banned and your post count will never rise. Post to say things, not for the sake of posting.

Oh, and avatar theft is not nice at all....

* point to lady avalon's avatar, then to PANTHERLORD's