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Author Topic: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.  (Read 19676 times)

Offline commandant

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I wrote this in another thread but I think it is likely to get a little lost amid the pictures of ballons that are no doubt going to arrive now.   I would be interested in your thoughts on how detachments effect the movement and [more importantly charging patterns] of an Imperial foe.


I have stated before that detachments are the most overlooked and undervalued part of the Empire Army list and I'm going to look at this.   

I've been considering the power of detachments for the last few days.   I've always been a fan because I like the professional feel that they give the Empire army and I really think they were seriously powered up in the 8th edition.   
I will add the caveat that 8th edition detachments mean that an Empire player needs to be more defensively minded compared to 7th because they don't auto find the flank but I will look at this at the very end in a very small amount of detail.

I think they are undervalued on the internet because nobody has really done a deep study into how they work or what they can do.   I also think they are undervalued because the internet uses a points-v-points-straight-up-slogfest metric when comparing units which is seriously flawed because it doesn't take into account the effects that a unit can have outside of a straight up slogfest and some units [light cav for example] are in the army purely for the effects that they have outside of a straight up slogfest.   Nobody is going to suggest that charging stuff with pistolliers is what you want to be doing, [at least not since 6th ed changed their rules].

Okay with that in mind lets look at the choices which are faced by an Imperial foe when coming against an Empire battle line.   For this I am going to consider an Empire battle line to consist of a large infantry unit [50-60 halberdiers with a warrior priest and a captain and two detachments of 20 halberdiers deployed 7x3 for example though other infantry units work just as well depending on your taste.   [Maybe Greatswords work better because they have stubborn.]   Also such an infantry line should be supported so I'm going to consider that there are some DGKs, maybe a steam tank, possibly a BSB and various other stuff like helblasters and cannons floating around.   If you want buff wagons you can toss one in, if you want a peggy captain you can toss one in [in fact I'd advise it as they are most useful] but mainly I want to talk about the infantry line and its support and the problems that detachments cause that would not exist if they did not exist.

A second thing I want to consider before we continue is that the general principle of war is to try and bring more of your stuff against less of your opponent's stuff.   If you are engaging in a fair fight somebody is doing something wrong.   I meant that by bodies, points or whatever.   When you fight you should do your best to have more than your foe.   It helps if your stuff is also better but as we are empire players and pretty much better than nothing we need to settle for more.

Thirdly I'm going to pretty much ignore magic.   Why, well mainly because you can have it or not have it depending on loads of stuff and nobody is suggesting that the Empire [with its fairly cheap wizards, priests, buff wagons and access to all 8 lores in the BRB] is undergunning when it comes to magic.   In that boxing ring the Empire more than holds its own given that the army pumps out channels and can add to its magic pool.   Sure the rod of whatever you call it is gone now but we still do more than okay.   I will say a little something about prayers but feel free to ignore it if you think it is focusing on magic too heavily.

Fourthly I am going to look at why detachments that are large effectively help you completely control the way the movement of the battle works.   Normally when people talk about detachments to control the movement of the battle they mean 5-10 achers to throw out in front of some unit and change their facing and take them out of the game for a while or something to that ilk.   However I'm going to limit myself to large detachments [around 20 models] and consider how they change the movement of the game just as completely.   I may look at smaller detachments later.

Okay lets consider therefore what the general thinks when faced by a standard block of infantry.   His thought process [more so if he is an elf, dwarf, orc, goblin, beastman or whatever] is going to be fairly similar.   Lets smash a large unit of something into it, kill a load of guys and push on through.   I can bring more attacks and/or better attacks than you can.   Therefore in a straight up smash'em all I'm going to win and you need to figure out a way to stop me.   I can ignore your units except the ones I want to smash this turn and refocus my better army to deal with the other stuff you have after I have smashing the living daylights out of major units.

When faced by a unit flanked by its two detachments the opponent can not say that.   The ability to counter charge means that the Empire can pile a lot of bodies into one fight.   If you try to attack into the parent unit and ignore the detachments they are going to pile into the sides [being within 3 inches and having M4 they can't fail their counter charge.]

If you let the detachments pile into the sides then they are going to almost double the damage output of the parent unit. [adding 28 attacks attacks to the halberdiers 29 normal attacks + priest + captain]   Nobody, regardless of how tough or broken or just plain crazy likes the idea of staring down 57 WS3 S4 attacks with hatred and possible +1 to hit.   Note if they have hatred and +1 to hit that is 50 hits against anything that is not WS 7 and that doesn't include the characters.   If the +1 doesn't exist [because face it we don't all like buff wagons] that is still 42 hits which is nothing to be sneered at.

Therefore I think we can justifiably claim that detachments allow us to pile in attacks in numbers that you need to be savage orcs or something to match.   It is reasonable to assume that your opponent is not going to want to put himself in that position [as we can all agree battling savage orcs can be less than desirable as they batter our puny humans to a bloody paste.]   So by the very fact that they exist they are forcing him to change his battle plans.

Okay so what can he do about it?

He can charge the detachments with something at the same time as he charges the parent unit.   This is the standard approach and the one that is almost 100% going to be mooted by somebody after this post.   There are a number of flaws with that approach.

[a] He needs to charge the detachments with something that they are not going to just beat.   20 halberdiers put out 14 WS3, S4 attacks with hatred so chaff is out of the question.   If he charges his chaff into you detachments then your halberdiers will just paste them.   A unit or creature that is going to be a serious contender for a detachment is likely going to cost around the 120 points that you spent on the detachment [maybe even more].   Therefore you are forcing him to invest more of his army in places that he doesn't want to.   You are forcing him to handle the detachments in a way that he wouldn't have to if they didn't exist.   Simply by existing the detachments give you a position and movement advantage.

Because the detachment is stubborn [if you are using the crown or greatswords, Yeah for subborn] or steadfast [if for some reason his unit attacking your parent is smaller than your parent] and has hold the line [remember the captain] and a re-roll [remember there should be a BSB somewhere close to your main battle line] and even leadership 9 [or ten if your general is around with the banner of disclipine] it is very unlikely that even if you lose combat [which you could if he invests more than 120 points in ensuring that you do] you are going to go anywhere and nothing that he can buy for 120 points [that I know of] is likely to kill 20 halberdiers in one turn of combat.   Oh and its going to be your turn next so the fact you are not going anywhere is a serious problem for him.   Why, because remember those DGKs and various other types of support you have no double filled your army out with.   There is a serious chance that in your turn they are going to come crashing into the flank of whatever he has just charged you detachment with and follow directly through into whatever he has charged your parent unit with.

But what if they are not positioned to do that I hear you ask?   Well then stop complaining about things being overpriced and position your DGKs better.   But what if he has positioned his army to engage your DGKs I hear you ask?   Hmm then it is likely that he has committed more of his army than he wants to because he wants to gang up on a portion of your army with a larger portion of his army and if he has committed part of his army to preventing your DGKs [or various other smashy stuff] from coming piling into the flank we need to assume that it is at least as valuable as the DGKs themselves or they would just paste it and move on.

Even if he has committed to preventing your vast sweeping flank charge then your detachments had ensured that he is committing parts of his army that he otherwise wouldn't have to.   The DGKs could be well out of charge range [or at a long charge] from the main parent v whatever fight that is going on and bounce through the fight of whatever against the detachments and pile into the parent v whatever fight [remember that you get to overrun if you charge so basically unless the thing fighting your detachment is of a large enough point value to stop your unit of DGKs dead in their tracks if he charges the detachment he is giving your DGKs a free double charge unless he charges them with something they are not going to just batter silly because if they do that then he is still giving your DGKs a free double charge and into his flank no less.   If he dose charge the DGKur with something they batter silly remember you can restrain your pursuit and still get your double charge in your turn, Yeah for re directing]

But I hear you say, what happens if he kills the captain and/or the warrior priest?   Isn't point somewhat conditional on these support people being alive.   If they die then no hatred, no hold HTL, maybe even no general if your general is in that parent unit as well so a straight up leadership check at -something large with no re-roll.   It isn't looking so rosy now is it.   Well then if he kills your support characters then you are in a lot of trouble and your detachment is likely to run and maybe even get run down and killed.   I do however want to look at that for a second.   There are a few things that need to be considered.
[B.1]  He still needs to win the combat against your parent unit.   I know you are all reading this with crazed looks on your faces going what the hell is he on about, of course he's going to paste the parent unit.   After all ins't that what he said was the point in the first place but lets consider

[B.2]  Empire characters can be very tanky.   In order to ensure that he killed the captain he would need to direct the 6 models that can fight the captain [or nine if he is not in the corner of the unit] to direct all of their attacks on him.   This is even more true if the captain is a BSB [really tanky] or if you are talking about lords as Empire lords come almost as tanky as dwarf lords.   If he is directing 9 models worth of attack [assuming he is in horde and 6 if not] against the lord and another nine against the captain [or whatever your support characters are] then he is directing more than half his potential attacks [18 models out of a possible 30] against a maximum of 6 CR.   I believe that overkill only works in a challenge.   That means the other 12 models' worth of attacks need to deal with the 30 models' worth of attacks that are coming there way.   Therefore I think it is no longer certain that they will kill enough halberdiers to win the combat given the number of attacks that are coming back.

[B.3] Even Empire troops can be quite tanky with the right prayers.   I mention prayers despite the fact I'm ignoring magic for one important reason.   In the current set up in WFB you almost always have more casting dice than your opponent has dispell dice.   This should be even more true if you are an Empire player and have a good few channels and a +1 from the buff wagon [if you have a buff wagon].   Prayers are really cheap too cast and therefore it should be reasonably possible to cast a few.   Given how easy and cheap they are to cast prayers have a huge impact on combat.

But, I hear you say, what if he keeps his dispell dice to dispell your prayers?   Fine by me, cause magical chaos elsewhere.

Therefore if [B.2] is true and your opponent feels that in order to defeat your detachments he needs to remove the buffs that your parent units are transferring onto them then your detachments have done their job because they have forced him to use his resources in a manner he doesn't want to and in a less profitable manner.   He is going to do a lot more damage by directing those attacks on the unit than he is by directing them on the heros and lords.   Why does he not normally want to fight against your lords and heros?   Because of how tanky they are.   
Also you have the option of challenges if you think that is a better way of keeping your important heros alive.

What the detachments have done, simply by existing, is that they have created a situation like in chess were all of the focus is placed on a single square.   You need to have more pieces attacking or defending that square than your opponent.   In this instance the Empire starts off with an advantage because it starts off with three pieces defending that square.

I could go into more detail but I'll leave that for now.   There is a kind of a flaw in the plan.   It works really well if you are charged, it is less good if you are charging.   A very fine general [Longstreet] was very fond of the offensive defense because it worked really well for him.   The Empire General therefore needs to give his opponent a reason to charge him.   What options does the Empire general have when it comes to range.   Well there are outriders, cannons [a good Empire army can easily have 3], mortars [which are good against big hordes or expensive low toughness elves], handgunners, helstorms and crossbowmen [less good admittedly but there is something nice about firing off a load of rockets and hoping for the best.   Helstorms are really quite good if your opponent has a large packed army and you are likely to hit something regardless of where they land.] and magic which includes all the various magic lores in the BRB, buff wagons, war alters  etc.   An Empire general has a lot at his disposal to try reach across to the other side of the board and make it desirable to his opponent not to get pounded.

If you believe that warhammer is a game about movement then the detachment system gives the Empire a brilliant way to control that movement.   You can say to your opponent "You can come here but if you do you need to deal with this and this and this."   No other race has that ability.   If you combine it with the reach that the Empire has then you find yourself in a very valuable position.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 12:29:28 PM »
http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=38075.0

Quote
The reason people are down on detachments is that they lost a lot in the 8th Edition rule set and GW didn't FAQ any of the useful elements back in.

There are limited uses- 5 man screens/blockers and some ranged options... but after several battles of trying larger detachments, you will do what most of us have done-  drop them like a bad habit. 

Quote
They aren't really worth it.

They don't count for core. Big mark against them. They really should, with the new system, which is based on points of models, rather than number of units

Redirecting is basically dead

Steadfast is in, and detachments don't break steadfast

Before, your detachments could redirect very easily, and could countercharge and break ranks, almost certainly winning you the fight on the rare occasions you pulled it off. Now they can't redirect worth anything, and even if they do countercharge, the enemy will have all his guys in one block and so be steadfast to your two smaller blocks.

The way enemies can declare a charge against your detachment, butcher it, then reface your parent unit OR charge your detachment, you flee, and they redirect into the parent, has basically removed melee detachments as a force from the battlefield, even assuming you have an advantage in the number of units so the opponent doesn't just charge both.

My army got way better once I took 3 30 man blocks instead of two 30 man blocks with 2 15 man detachments. the 15 man detachments were too small to hold up enemy combat blocks and too big to throw away as a speed bump/redirector.

Quote
One thing you need to be careful about with the new random charge distance rules in 8th Edition is actually giving your opponent more movement because you dangled a detachment in front of your lines to slow your opponent down but your opponent succeeds in a nice long distance charge.

Granted, he still hasn't made it to your lines if he demolishes the detachment, reforms, and is now parked in front of your lines... but instead of getting a total movement of 8' for a M4 block, he could easily achieve 10-12' or greater.  We need every inch of the battlespace so we can drop more shrapnel on the enemies head.

I also find that too many little units/detachments running around in front of my lines actually reduces my tactical options.  Your opponent knows those units are going to flee or be used to get in the way and so he moves and plan accordingly.  I hate it when I want to charge in a spot but am prevented from doing so because I have a unit/detachment sitting in the way preventing the juicy charge.

I run 5 man detachments off some of my State troops for some flexibility, but I not a fan of spending too many points on detachments.  I can barely squeeze in what I want to in my lists; I usually don't have any spare points left to dump into core-less troops that are not working like they used to with the new ruleset.

People....HAVE been through this....you even took part in the discussion and continue to ignore the arguments against your....pipe dreaming and go on ...and on...and on....with your ideas of grandeur.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 12:53:36 PM »
Interesting.   Lets look at what has been raised.

Quote from: Fandir Nightshade on Today at 12:24:52 PM

    Problem with detachments is due to the 3 inch rule you will have a hard time to get both detachments in the flanks.....it is even close to being impossible as both have to charge the front if more of the unit is in the front of the charging unit.


This is just wrong.   You will remember that one of the opening premises of the entire piece is that you need to be more defensive and be charged rather than charging.

   

I fail to see how it would be difficult to get either of those detachments into the flank at point of charge.      Therefore your first point of contention is based on a misreading of the text.

Quote from: Fandir Nightshade on Today at 12:24:52 PM

    They also cause panic.


Only if they run away, which they are unlikely to do outside of combat and if they are in combat then the parent unit is also likeky to be in combat and can't be paniced.   This is why the subborness of the detachments was so important.   Yes detachments cause panic, every Empire unit causes panic.   If anything the panic caused by detachments is less of a problem than the panic caused by everything else remember than units only cause panic in surrounding units if
[a] They are destoryed or
They break from combat [I think]
[c]  They run through the unit.   I don't think units running past other units cause panic anymore.

Therefore panic is not an issue.


Quote from: Fandir Nightshade on Today at 12:24:52 PM

    The enemy can attacke the detachments IN the flank after they moved into the flank of the first charger.



They can, but not until their next turn, by which you have had 2 rounds of combat pumping out 50is attacks the first round and at least 20 the second round.   That is 70 attacks which is normally enough to cause a certain amount of damage to the unit attacking the parent unit, even to destroy it.

Quote from: Fandir Nightshade on Today at 12:24:52 PM

    Several other issues with your flawed analysis of how amazing detachments are....because they arenīt.


I'm sure you'll get around to telling me what they are because so far the best you have managed is that they cause panic and the foe can charge the flank [or rear, you shouldn't forget rear] of the detachments.

Quote from: Fandir Nightshade on Today at 12:24:52 PM

    You keep adding up support characters and units and even spells...you had ruled out previously to make it look better...but they still donīt cut it.

    I admit I did mention prayers, despite not wanting to go into magic but I would point out that prayers aren't included in any of the rough figures I gave.

    Quote from: Fandir Nightshade on Today at 12:24:52 PM


        People have tried....people have failed.....people that have loads of games under their belt.

        But hey....just setting things right...infantry Empire CAN work....but it is an uphill battle also they work better without detachments ...well cc detachments as those are hell to maneuver and make it very difficult to apply tactics.


    You keep saying this as if repeating it often enough will make it true.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 01:03:20 PM »
If you even open a new thread on the issue...stick to it.


If you place your unit like this....I would just move my combat unit on either flank...you would have to turn towards them and at that point only max of one detachment would be able to flank....also the point of other units just charging the detachments isnīt really invalidated by your description of yet other units preventing this.....if your main regiment and detachments are placed like this nothing would prevent three enemy units to charge in at the same time. Overall most people would just ignore them for as long as possible and kill stuff around...moving this unit to meet them and get good engagements is hard your axiom...you have to play defensively and force the enemy to attack directly into the front of the main regiment is flawed...

To prevent the detachments being charged players try to hold them back a bit behind the main regiment the charge distance of 4+2d6 usually is enough but the angles to get both in the flank of the charging unit isnīt as simple as you put it. Tilt your main regiment by a little bit and suddenly a detachment is in the front instead of the flank...and well useless.

Detachments cause panic if they are wiped out or if they run away correct but that is exactly what happens often enough. Panic IS an issue if you fail a very important panic check and your main regiment runs away...ld 8 isnīt that great...oh but wait more Axioms General with Ld 9 and bsb are also around......so you have a battle line of 2 detachments and a halberdier horde and some units containing the bsb and the general....in one corner receiving the charge of the enemy...and due to this tactical acumen you will win with Empire infantry using detachments.

It is obvious you have not played in any tournaments lately.

All the issues have been named by the holy hand grenade and others in the thread I linked...you still want to ignore them.

They donīt count into core allowance, they cause panic, they donīt automatically go into the flank, they make the whole formation main unit and other detachments unwieldy and the characters you need to make them viable are too expensive to make it really count.

Try to make the maths on how long 9 Reiksguard with a Captain and the banner of discipline will be able to tank around without any more support and you might start to figure out why people prefer to go knight/stank/Demigryph heavy.




Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2014, 01:16:07 PM »
They donīt count into core allowance,

Well, they do, provided their Regiment is core as well.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2014, 01:19:50 PM »
Has this be faq ed then? But nope for greatswords then. Crown of command is prohibited in most tourneys and even if not the character carrying it is prone to ...dying.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 01:22:27 PM »
That was always the case.

Empire AB p. 30: "The points cost of a Detachment, and any upgrades it has taken, counts towards the points total of the same unity category as the Regimental Unit they are purchased with."
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2014, 01:24:03 PM »
Wasnt there a huge discussion about the core allowance of detachments?

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 01:28:28 PM »
That was when the 8th edition BRB came out, but the 7th Empire AB was still valid.

Edit: regarding the main issue, one thing is indisputable: that Missile Detachments have been NBU.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 01:30:34 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2014, 01:43:33 PM »
Nbu?

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2014, 01:46:10 PM »
Nerfed beyond use. Well, you can still take an archer Detachment as wizard bunker, but that is not exactly what the task of a Detachment is supposed to be.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline commandant

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2014, 01:52:11 PM »
Edit: regarding the main issue, one thing is indisputable: that Missile Detachments have been NBU.

Indeed I don't think missile detachments are a useful now, which is a pity.   That however doesn't really effect the usefulness of detachments as a whole.   

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=38075.0

This entire thread is about something completely different, therefore quotes from it don't apply.


If you place your unit like this....I would just move my combat unit on either flank...you would have to turn towards them and at that point only max of one detachment would be able to flank....


As long as I keep a straight line across the parent and detachments both will be able to charge the flank.

To prevent the detachments being charged players try to hold them back a bit behind the main regiment the charge distance of 4+2d6 usually is enough but the angles to get both in the flank of the charging unit isnīt as simple as you put it. Tilt your main regiment by a little bit and suddenly a detachment is in the front instead of the flank...and well useless.

I'm not trying to prevent the detachments being charged.   Therefore I don't need to worry about this.   Also why would I be tilting the parent unit and not the detachment.

Detachments cause panic if they are wiped out or if they run away correct but that is exactly what happens often enough.

Because of stubborn, hold-the-line and BSBs that is not going to happen very often all all.   In fact it would be quite rare for stubborn detachments to run away.

oh but wait more Axioms General with Ld 9 and bsb are also around......so you have a battle line of 2 detachments and a halberdier horde and some units containing the bsb and the general....in one corner receiving the charge of the enemy...and due to this tactical acumen you will win with Empire infantry using detachments.

At the moment I think it is reasonable to assume that
a: an army has a general and BSB
b: Said general and BSB are located near the main battle line.

If you have a problem with either of those assumptions then please explain.

It is obvious you have not played in any tournaments lately.

Which is relevant because?

All the issues have been named by the holy hand grenade and others in the thread I linked...you still want to ignore them.

I have read them, my views are informed by their views.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2014, 01:57:18 PM »
At the moment I think it is reasonable to assume that
a: an army has a general and BSB
b: Said general and BSB are located near the main battle line.

What about their Leadership?  :engel:
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline Fandir Nightshade

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2014, 01:57:56 PM »
Oh you....

I should know better than discussing anything with you.

Offline Finlay

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2014, 02:14:43 PM »
I love fighting defensive players.

Fundamental flaw of commandant’s ideas: he ignores your main battleline, as you are playing defensively looking for the charge, and kills the rest of your army.

Shooting. Ok, your shooting and support units might be able to knock out enemy warmachines and support units. But if a couple of dwarven cannons blat your cannons, then the inevitable gyros are going to decimate the battlelines combat effectiveness in one or 2 rounds of shooting.

You have made an odd comment several times, of “the detachments having to be dealt with just by being there”, which is true of ANYTHING in ANY army, not just linked to detachments.

And if he has to invest more points for a turn or two to wipe out less points, but your main battle line, it’s not really a problem for him.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 03:22:17 PM by Finlay »
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Newt

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2014, 02:24:00 PM »
the only viable detachments are 5 archers for redirect, or a unit of 15 halb/swords ONLY if the parent is stubborn to block the flank.

Offline GambitGriffin

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Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2014, 02:44:09 PM »
Isn't this very similar to the griffon formation? That seems to work so why all the hate on detachment?

Offline Newt

  • Posts: 265
Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2014, 02:49:27 PM »
it is simple to counter after you fight it once, thats why.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Posts: 9443
  • Attorney-at-RAW
Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2014, 02:51:25 PM »
The hate is perhaps less about the Detachment rules as such, as about the fact that it is generally assumed that it is responsible for an unwarranted points increase of our infantry units.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
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Offline Finlay

  • Posts: 18635
  • C'mon Son
Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2014, 02:59:21 PM »
the only viable detachments are 5 archers for redirect, or a unit of 15 halb/swords ONLY if the parent is stubborn to block the flank.
unfortunately agreed.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Finlay

  • Posts: 18635
  • C'mon Son
Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2014, 03:01:55 PM »
Any strategy which is uber passive, relying on the enemy to charge you in the way you want, indeed with not very much manipulation of him on the way in,  wont survive vs good generals, or those who can either outgun or outmagic you.
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 10157
Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2014, 03:17:34 PM »
The griffon formation makes great use of small archer detachments it is much more about smart use of those units than about some 90 halberdiers standing in a corner waiting.


Offline LegionsofOdin

  • Posts: 236
Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2014, 03:19:47 PM »
I also belive you guys underestimate detachments I use a block of 50 halberdiers with a detachment of 25 halberdiers and another detachment of 20 crossbows with great success I win a lot of local tournaments with them and always do vary well in the large regional tournaments (usually top 15 of 60-100 players ) and I rarely have had my detachment not get the flank. And rarely does my opponent have 3 available units to charge my line.

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« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 03:22:35 PM by LegionsofOdin »

Offline Fandir Nightshade

  • Posts: 10157
Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2014, 03:23:17 PM »
Care to post your list and explain how the battle usually goes?
How you use those detachments?


Offline commandant

  • Posts: 7371
Re: The power of detachments in the movement and charging phases.
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2014, 03:25:31 PM »
I love fighting defensive players.

Fundamental flaw of commandant’s ideas: he ignores your main battleline, as you are playing defensively looking for the charge, and kills the rest of your army.

There is a issue here.   What should an Empire general do if the opponent decides to avoid the large combat block and focus on the rest of the army?

Let us first ask a few questions.

1: What is its function?

2: What is the main combat block doing while it is being ignored?

One: What is the function of the rest of the army?

The function of the rest of the army is the support the combat block [or blocks if you have them].   Like TVI of old the rest of your army is not designed to destroy the opponent but rather to put him in a position where he needs to look at your combat blocks.   I would suggest cannons are good, a steam tank maybe, Knights and DGKs as well but mainly you should not be focusing on what the rest of your army is but on what it is doing.   

Remember the central idea.   You want more of your stuff to be fighting less of his stuff.   The rest of your army therefore is to keep the more of his stuff busy so that the more of your stuff can concentrate.   

Two: What is your main combat block doing while he is off killing the rest of your army?

Well people really should look more into Longstreet's ideas.   Defensiveness should be done aggressively.   Just because your main combat block doesn't want to charge doesn't mean that it won't if it is better for it to.   It is desirable for the detachments and parent to stay together but if you find yourself faced with a lot of chaff then the detachments and parent can charge independently of each other.

You should be trying to concentrate more of your army against less of his.   If he decides to take large amounts of his army to fight small amounts of your army then there must be small amounts of his army to defend against large amounts of your army.

 
You have made an odd comment several times, of “the detachments being dealt with just by being there”, which is true of ANYTHING in ANY army, not just linked to detachments.

Not at all.   Some units can be ignored because they are not going to act until the next turn.   This is not true of detachments.   The detachments have to be dealt with because if they are not they can act.   

If you have 2 units of 40 halberdiers in a line I can punch my chaos whatever directly through the one confidant that the other one can't act until your turn.

If I have 1 unit of 40 halberdiers with 2 detachments of 20 halberdiers in a line you can't punch through the 40 without the two twenties acting.
And if he has to invest more points for a turn or two to wipe out less points, but your main battle line, it’s not really a problem for him.
[/quote]

I love fighting defensive players.

 
Shooting. Ok, your shooting and support units might be able to knock out enemy warmachines and support units. But if a couple of dwarven cannons blat your cannons, then the inevitable gyros are going to decimate the battlelines combat effectiveness in one or 2 rounds of shooting.

I think you are undervaluing Empire shooting.   Cannons, helblasters, etc are good.   I would also point out that I faced 4 gyros with a very defensive army [I was playing with pikemen after all] and the gyros were not really that effective.   Admittedly it is only one game but beware of over stating the power of gyros.

And if he has to invest more points for a turn or two to wipe out less points, but your main battle line, it’s not really a problem for him.

Him having to invest more to attack less is always a problem for him because your more should be doing something.

The hate is perhaps less about the Detachment rules as such, as about the fact that it is generally assumed that it is responsible for an unwarranted points increase of our infantry units.


I firmly believe that the price increase was warranted considering how much better the detachments got.

Any strategy which is uber passive, relying on the enemy to charge you in the way you want, indeed with not very much manipulation of him on the way in,  wont survive vs good generals, or those who can either outgun or outmagic you.

You should not think that defensive is the same as passive.   The entire point of this is that there is a great deal of manipulation of him on the way in.   Everything in your army that is not your main combat block should be designed to manipulate him into feeling that charging your combat block is better than staying in the open. 

A defensive army needs more firepower than an offensive one, but it can make up for it by controlling the flow.

Isn't this very similar to the griffon formation? That seems to work so why all the hate on detachment?

It is very similar to the griffon formation.   In fact it is the griffon formation - the archers.   The hate is mainly because it was decided that detachments were no good when you had to use the 7th ed detachment rules in 8th ed and once the 8th ed army book came out everybody was so in the mindset of detachments being small and the Empire being an aggressive combat army [because of our underpriced 7th ed core] that nobody really looked into the traditional defensive Imperial tactics until the griffon formation came along.

Even now people are trying to be an aggressive combat army and complaining about poor design when they find that the Empire isn't that.   Its like complaining that a Spanner is poorly designed after trying to hit in a nail with it.