Topic: How on earth do you pick an army in AOS?

[Krokz]

I liked WFB because of these three main elements:  maneuver, line combat and fluff.

From what I heard fluff is not reduced but on contrary. It will be greatly enhanced as it can finally be since Fantasy is not stuck in previous world. Narrative combat is what gets kids into it so they are working on it.

[wissenlander]

I thought the End Time destroyed everything (or most everything)?  I'm not even sure if Wissenland exists anymore, so from my perspective the fluff is no more, just more of a footnote to launch into the new stuff.  It's great that they want to push the story forward, but they destroyed nearly everything that held me into the Warhammer world.  Killing off characters is one thing, but to take out civilization itself is completely another. 

Again, from my perspective this is a new game, and I believe the investment that I put into my stories and characters is now obsolete.

[Rein]

[..]
I'm just asking that perhaps you can be a little less condescending on your review of the game? In the end it's all about enjoying yourself and having fun with friends. (and before you say "what fun can you have with this?!", I find it better than my 8th battles where my opponent spammed metal with his high elves against my Bretonnians)
[..]

I do not understand this. How can you argue for a game without balance using a argument based on building anti-lists in 8th ?

If your friend brings a metal wizard to a battle between HE and Brets, what will stop him from doing the same in AoS? (same means: similar out of balance in AoS as a metal wizard is out of balance in 8th against Brets)

You could have agreed in 8th to not play certain units, but it apparently did not happen. It also shows to me, how the lack of balance is the greatest of flaws in AoS.

[Krokz]

I thought the End Time destroyed everything (or most everything)?  I'm not even sure if Wissenland exists anymore, so from my perspective the fluff is no more

Not until AoS gets released and we officially gradually get new fluff. Old fluff is dead, yes.

[wissenlander]

Not until AoS gets released and we officially gradually get new fluff. Old fluff is dead, yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMD3yG9NHlo

[Baron von Klatz]

[..]
I'm just asking that perhaps you can be a little less condescending on your review of the game? In the end it's all about enjoying yourself and having fun with friends. (and before you say "what fun can you have with this?!", I find it better than my 8th battles where my opponent spammed metal with his high elves against my Bretonnians)
[..]

I do not understand this. How can you argue for a game without balance using a argument based on building anti-lists in 8th ?

If your friend brings a metal wizard to a battle between HE and Brets, what will stop him from doing the same in AoS? (same means: similar out of balance in AoS as a metal wizard is out of balance in 8th against Brets)

You could have agreed in 8th to not play certain units, but it apparently did not happen. It also shows to me, how the lack of balance is the greatest of flaws in AoS.

That's a fair enough question,  I was just pointing out that 8th did have some flaws that a overly competitive person could exploit to win. He still plays to win but now, even though he fields more powerful units, there's a level of randomness to the battles that make it a less one-sided affair when he power plays.

8th is still the superior strategy game of course.

Not until AoS gets released and we officially gradually get new fluff. Old fluff is dead, yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMD3yG9NHlo

It's not all bad for your fluff. You can always have it so Sigmar resurrected your heroic captains to his realm and they trained the free people of that realm in the heroic traditions of your Wissenland army.

[wissenlander]

It's not all bad for your fluff. You can always have it so Sigmar resurrected your heroic captains to his realm and they trained the free people of that realm in the heroic traditions of your Wissenland army.

If for some reason I ever do give this an honest go I'll remember this suggestion.  Thanks.

[Darknight]

Or you can play games in the "Time Before" - use the Warscrolls and the units you have.

Or you can ALWAYS play 8th edition.

[Siberius]

I suppose in fairness to gw they have developed their fluff exactly how they always said they would.

Hasn't the world been doomed in the fluff for a very long time?

[wissenlander]

Or you can play games in the "Time Before" - use the Warscrolls and the units you have.

Or you can ALWAYS play 8th edition.

Right now that's the most likely course I see for myself; 8th edition (or maybe even an earlier edition).  I'm not really freaking out about it as much as I could be.  I don't really play Warhammer at all anymore, and the only time I do is usually with Siberius and his family (of all the people ) and he/they are quite accommodating, whenever he can coax me into playing anyway.  My thoughts are just in general, as someone who generally dislikes change and wanted to get back into the hobby when time and money permitted again.  I wanted to return to something I had familiarity with. 

I suppose in fairness to gw they have developed their fluff exactly how they always said they would.

Hasn't the world been doomed in the fluff for a very long time?

Ha. Fair enough.  I did always hate that line, though.

[Darknight]

One of the problems with "the world is doomed" or "five minutes to midnight" scenarios is that they get very stale after a while, because you think "Why haven't they actually succeeded yet?"

The stakes are never high - Storm of Chaos didn't do anything, it didn't change the world in any meaningful way. And then it was retconned away.

The End Times had very high stakes - too high, obviously.

[Baron von Klatz]

It's not all bad for your fluff. You can always have it so Sigmar resurrected your heroic captains to his realm and they trained the free people of that realm in the heroic traditions of your Wissenland army.

If for some reason I ever do give this an honest go I'll remember this suggestion.  Thanks.

You're welcome,  friend.

I use a similar fluff for my army in AoS along with a background of my warrior priests fighting so fiercely at the end of the old world that their faith protected them, and the few troops with them, while in the torrents of chaos and that they were cast adrift until Sigmar's light beckoned them to his realm, like a lighthouse promising safe harbor to a ship lost within a storm.

One of the problems with "the world is doomed" or "five minutes to midnight" scenarios is that they get very stale after a while, because you think "Why haven't they actually succeeded yet?"

The stakes are never high - Storm of Chaos didn't do anything, it didn't change the world in any meaningful way. And then it was retconned away.

The End Times had very high stakes - too high, obviously.

Indeed, at least you can't say the title was misleading. 

[iatroblast]

Regarding Fantasy:

No models available equals no new players. Forgeworld's representitive stated: "The 'funny' rules are rather silly... This is deliberate, its designed that you'll only generally play the old stuff with your mates since it's a bit embarassing to play in a public place."
I'm sad with GW, because with The End Times, they gave me the false impression Fantasy had a future. This, combined with their above attitude, seems like an attempt to earn money for a last time from Fantasy fans, before they moved on, in search of a new customer group. That may be true, if you consider the prices these products were available

Regarding AoS:

I'm happy with the new easier and faster to learn rules. Now i have the chance to play with friends who were too bored to read 1-3 books in order to just play a game.
But the lists are way too random, prices are even higher, and i don't like the 40K aesthetics (to give you an idea of how much i like Space Marines, i'd rather play with Battle Sisters and lose everytime). I wish they will include a historic army, or create one with our current miniature range. I'll wait and see

[Darknight]

Well, it could be said that if they had merely said "... and then the world exploded!" people might have been miffed they couldn't play in it.

That is one of the problems with a miniatures wargame - you have a large expenditure of cash to get the models for any scenario.

And I think the End Times specific models are likely to be around in AoS, with official warscrolls etc.

[iatroblast]

Their End of Times scenario was becoming more than just an in-game, as you could use these books without asking permission from your opponent. So it was more like Fantasy was involving, promising it would be with us for quiet sometime
If the End Times models or any others will make it to the new setting, it remains to be seen 

Well, it could be said that if they had merely said "... and then the world exploded!" people might have been miffed they couldn't play in it. ...

Didn't want to spoil the ending? 

[Darknight]

There has always been a perennial problem with fantasy games - wargames, RPGs etc. - which historical games do not share.

In a historical game (Napoleonics, for example) there isn't a "current timeframe" ... one can play pre-Waterloo battles, Waterloo itself, post-Waterloo battles. There is never the situation that "now we have released 2nd edition, everything pre-Waterloo cannot be played".

But fantasy games always have this "current time" thing. The End Times did exactly what it said - and so solved the problem of "meh, nothing ever changes - we get invaded by Chaos but they always get beaten back in a last-ditch effort. Yawn." But it caused the problem of "Wait, the world actually ended!!!"

It is sad that GW aren't supporting Warhammer any more. It is very sad. But I can understand why. They don't have the resources to support it, and they don't want to shoot themselves (and AoS) in the foot* by some kind of inexpensive support that will draw people away from their stuff.

* Cue comments "AoS shoots itself in the foot"

I do think, though, something does need to be pointed out ...

When people say AoS has destroyed the fluff, they often say things like (as was posted above) the background for Wissenland or whatever is gone. But The End Times already did that - the Empire with its internal struggles and coming together to fight Chaos and the beastmen in the forests and the Orc WAAAAGH!s etc. was destroyed by that.

What Workshop did was write the end of the story. Maybe it was a bad ending - from what I've see it was, poorly written etc. - but it was an ending. The problem is; people want to play while the story is ongoing - and when they ended the story, they also stopped telling it.

[Syn Ace]

People could live with the world ending if the game was still updated with rules clarifications, new versions every so often, sold the models direct order only. But they disconnected the life support so they could steer people to their replacement product.

I just wonder about GW's long-term survivability as a company. Seems like they're a bloated tick with all their stores and corporate staff and they're charging a lot for their models to support it all and to generate a profit for investors. I believe that high prices (along with a high model count required for the game) killed fantasy. I wonder if high prices will start killing their other games?

[Ambrose]

GW is not a gaming company, it is a modeling company (why they haven't changed their name to like, Model Workshop or something, I don't know).

That being said, I have to disagree with the above statement that people need a story to 'continue' from a specific time frame.  Like the example given, many historical games play pre/post and during a set time frame.  Warhammer could do this too.

Stale you say?  Bored you say?  I say no.  What about a campaign, each real year, that focused on a different army/region/realm/etc. of the Warhammer setting.  Were people excited by the End Times?  Yes!  They had new models, a campaign, story driven scenarios, etc.  They could do this with so much of the fluff from Warhammer's world it isn't even funny.

The siege of Praag campaign = siege models (would be a hit IMO), new chaos monsters, new middenheim models, etc...
Siege of Uthuan = more elf models, DE models, etc.  Story driven scenarios, etc.

I look at Warlordgames and their summer campaign for their WW2 game Bolt Action;  Do we know what happened in WW2?  Yep.  But guess what, the company is engaging it's customers in an interactive way.  This (as far as I have read) has boosted sales, encouraged people to swell their armies, paint their armies and get into their FLGS and play some games (well, they haven't started yet, but I'm already gearing up to joining in some games).

To me, it is about the gaming aspect.  GW has indicated on many levels that they sell miniatures.  I hope people have fun with AoS.  They are really good models.  I'm just looking for more and hope to keep a bit of the Warhammer community alive with 8th.

Ambrose

[Baron von Klatz]

Regarding Fantasy:

No models available equals no new players. Forgeworld's representitive stated: "The' rules are rather silly... This is deliberate, its designed that you'll only generally play the old stuff with your mates since it's a bit embarassing to play in a public place."
I'm sad with GW, because with The End Times, they gave me the false impression Fantasy had a future. This, combined with their above attitude, seems like an attempt to earn money for a last time from Fantasy fans, before they moved on, in search of a new customer group. That may be true, if you consider the prices these products were available

Actually,  I've been hearing from other sites that GW is sending out responses that what that fellow said wasn't true. One fellow from the vampire site claimed he has a friend in GW's management what said there wasn't even supposed to be a representative at that place.

At the bottom at the Ulthuan discussion is where I heard that GW is sending out responses to it.

http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=69168&sid=b68e046cc4f8076b170006ecd8a7a752

I personally believe it was just humor. I take hope from the fact that old models were shown in the AoS trailer and that some races didn't recieve joke requirements either. Only time will tell though.

Also, on the subject of a new human faction, I'm hoping for a Roman aesthetic to go along with the Greek/Norse mythology parallels.

[Syn Ace]

I think old models were shown because their replacements are somewhere in the development/production cycle. Might be more likely that the ETs models make it through, but I think everything else is probably getting overhauled with a new look or weapon combos, though some of your old models you could probably field as substitutes with no problem.

[Baron von Klatz]

I certainly hope that's the case. I think the human armies have it worst as there's a certain historical aesthetic we love about our armies. Only the Aelves have it near as bad on what they'll lose with change. Hmm, maybe the tomb kings as well now that I think about it ( though it would be hilarious seeing them put in the metal realm and become fantasy Necrons as the Necrons have become sci-fi tomb kings   ).

[xxvaderxx]

Also, concerning Crimsonsphinx, the game is vastly different to 8th. The heroes and strategies have changed drastically,  case in point, a fellow had ten goblins with a hero face ten chaos knights and a hero. The goblin player won with only his hero standing with one wound left.

pff, the person not able to break this game isnt even trying... Chess and checkers both have strategy, Age of Shitmar doesnt.

[iatroblast]

GW is not a gaming company, it is a modeling company (why they haven't changed their name to like, Model Workshop or something, I don't know).
...

GW is a quality modeling company true,  but is also a gaming company. It has both natures, but if you think of it, would their miniatures had this kind of impact, if they weren't ment to be used in a game? Just take a look at how awful their 90's miniature range looks. At the same period, we had excellent static miniatures representing trains, airplanes etc. And yet, their dreadful minis were popular because you could do something more, than just painting and placing them in a shelf

At least, their latest products are quite good for just displaying them, so i'm fine with that

... fantasy games always have this "current time" thing. The End Times did exactly what it said - and so solved the problem of "meh, nothing ever changes - we get invaded by Chaos but they always get beaten back in a last-ditch effort. Yawn." But it caused the problem of "Wait, the world actually ended!!!"

It is sad that GW aren't supporting Warhammer any more. It is very sad. But I can understand why. They don't have the resources to support it, and they don't want to shoot themselves (and AoS) in the foot* by some kind of inexpensive support that will draw people away from their stuff.

* Cue comments "AoS shoots itself in the foot"

I do think, though, something does need to be pointed out ...

When people say AoS has destroyed the fluff, they often say things like (as was posted above) the background for Wissenland or whatever is gone. But The End Times already did that - the Empire with its internal struggles and coming together to fight Chaos and the beastmen in the forests and the Orc WAAAAGH!s etc. was destroyed by that.

What Workshop did was write the end of the story. Maybe it was a bad ending - from what I've see it was, poorly written etc. - but it was an ending. The problem is; people want to play while the story is ongoing - and when they ended the story, they also stopped telling it.

Yes agreed. In fantasy games you need a story going on to keep your interest. Well, Fantasy's story ended, in a very bad and unexplained way- well nobody seems to think of poor Archaon. He won, and now he has NO lands to conquer, Chaos Dwarves have NO slaves for their mines, and anyone who managed to survive has to do battles with Blood Angels. Do you call that a victory?? it's like they changed level difficulty

As for the "They don't have the resources to support it" issue, ok, they must do their best, I would never want it otherwise. But did they really had to attempt their previous release, if it was ment to be abandoned so early? Isn't there some kind of "a moral" issue here, to establish a feeling of trust between you and your fans? **

-edit-

** actually maybe it's a little too soon to say that, based on what Baron von Klatz said in a previous comment. To be fair, I have to wait for GW to release the full AoS, before getting into hasty conclusions

[wissenlander]

I do think, though, something does need to be pointed out ...

When people say AoS has destroyed the fluff, they often say things like (as was posted above) the background for Wissenland or whatever is gone. But The End Times already did that - the Empire with its internal struggles and coming together to fight Chaos and the beastmen in the forests and the Orc WAAAAGH!s etc. was destroyed by that.

What Workshop did was write the end of the story. Maybe it was a bad ending - from what I've see it was, poorly written etc. - but it was an ending. The problem is; people want to play while the story is ongoing - and when they ended the story, they also stopped telling it.

I'm sure there's a difference, and appreciate your attention to detail, but it looks like the End Times were the means to justify the end which is AoS.  So AoS may not be the 'cause' but that's more nuance than I care to think about. I used to enjoy those differences and details, but to me, right now, it makes no never mind.

[Ambrose]

GW is a quality modeling company true,  but is also a gaming company. It has both natures, but if you think of it, would their miniatures had this kind of impact, if they weren't ment to be used in a game? Just take a look at how awful their 90's miniature range looks. At the same period, we had excellent static miniatures representing trains, airplanes etc. And yet, their dreadful minis were popular because you could do something more, than just painting and placing them in a shelf

I agree that in the 90's it was a gaming company.  I think 8th edition for fantasy was meant to be a game with GW's amazing miniatures.  I think, with the changing of the guard, we are seeing hints that GW is truly going to focus on models.  The prices are going up, they spend more of their money producing 'how to paint this' products, paint guides, actual paints, etc.

You can also hear it in the terms they use for their large models (even in 40k); "this will make a great centre piece to a person's collection'....

Please don't get me wrong.  GW has a fond place in my heart and I'm not going to throw my stuff out.  But it seems they will focus on making amazing models, charging us a great deal, and now, giving us a set of fun rules to use our models with.  If we want to.

Ambrose