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Author Topic: 2400 point Cavalry list (8th edition)  (Read 2827 times)

Offline Tier5

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2400 point Cavalry list (8th edition)
« on: December 14, 2015, 12:30:41 AM »
This is just the first draft of a cavalry list I was thinking of running for an upcoming 8th tournament, still waiting on any changes to the comp system this time around but I'm fairly certain my list qualifies so far. As far as I can tell I got the points right (left my book behind when writing it).

I've run similar lists but with an infantry horde that never actually gets into combat and simply takes up deployment space, rarely protecting their points. This version seeks to address that by dropping my usual block of halberdiers for a second unit of knights. Currently some of the upgrades are just there to fill points out while I consider my chances.

I know its not the usual Empire list for tournaments but I felt I'd try something different and fast, the knight units all take up roughly the same area funnily enough and can be deployed and maneuvered pretty well. The magic support is to take advantage of the most powerful points of the army (high armour and strength on the charge) while shoring up my weaknesses (lack of range replaced by lightning and falling rocks). Still not sold on all my character equipment as some of it is definitely hit or miss, the Grand Master being unreliable on a damage standpoint and my priests are a little blank.

Just any thoughts really, can the list be made objectively better while sticking to the theme? Can anyone see a way for me to get reiksguard instead of knightly orders? Has anyone else tried 6 by 3 blocks of knights? (I like it)

Lords (Total: 489)
Wizard Lord (235)
Level 4, Lore of Heavens, Staff of Sorcery. (Hangs out with the archers, tries to nail comet and both lightning spells for long range hell.)

Templar Grand Master (254)
Shield, White Cloak of Ulric, Sword of Anti-Heroes, The Other Tricksters Shard. (Wishing he could ride a demigryph.)

Heroes (Total: 426)
Captain of the Empire (131)
Battle Standard, Barded Warhorse, Full Plate Armour, Shield, Lance, Ironcurse Icon, Dragonhelm. (Used to hang out with the demis on a pegasus.)

Warrior Priest (85)
Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armour, Shield. (Bare bones.)

Warrior Priest (85)
Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armour, Shield. (One for each block of knights.)

Battle Wizard (125)
Level 2, Lore of Heavens, Dispel Scroll. (Rolls first, hopes he doesn't get wind blast.)

Core (Total: 927)
Knightly Orders (382)
16 Knights, Full Command, Lances and Shield. (6 by 3 ranks with Characters: 1 Priest + Captain or Grand Master.)

Inner Circle Knights (430)
16 Knights, Full Command, Lances and shield. (6 by 3 again with their characters, most likely escort for Grand Master.)

Archers (80)
10, Banner. (Wizard hidey hole.)
Detachment Archers
5. (Redirectors, hidey hole of desperation)

Special (Total: 558)
Demigryph Knights (378)
6 Knights, Lances and Shield, Full command. (Played in attack mode of 4 front and 2 behind or as a 3 by 2 block for maneuvering and flank charges.)

Pistoliers (90)
5. (Fast moving interceptors and redirectors, can hunt war machines in a pinch.)

Pistoliers (90)
5. (Actually pretty good versus elf cav if they go first.)

Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: 2400 point Cavalry list (8th edition)
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2015, 03:06:09 AM »
Hey Teir5,

Just some quick thoughts.

1) On your Wizard Lord, not to ask a dumb question, but what is a "Staff of Sorcery?"

2) For your Grandmaster, I'm not sold on the Sword of Anti-Heroes.  Unit Champions do not count as characters, and, from my experience, usually you only get +1 / +1 from the sword… if even that.  Not to mention that most enemies will have superior Initiative, or ASF… which means, while the Grandmaster may get stronger, he'll still strike last.  Though... you can make the case that, since he's going last anyway, might as well go stronger.  But... if you want to go that way, then you might as well just get him a zwei-sword, and save a ton of points.

2-A) Overall, you might want to consider the Sword of Might.  While it "peaks" at +1 to Strength, you always get it.  So, you're still getting 4, Strength 5 attacks.  Not bad.  And, it's slightly cheaper, saving you some points.

2-B) Don't forget, the Other Trickster's shard also works against you.  All Ward saves in base-to-base with the barer are re-rolled.  (Which means you'd actually have to re-roll successful Ironcurse Icon saves, or Priest-Prayer-Ward-Saves for the five models which would touch your Grandmaster.) And, it has zero effect on Regeneration saves.  For its cost and penalties, I'm not impressed with it.

3) For your BSB, I don't think you included the cost of the Pegasus.  You might also want to look at "Iron Hard Hooves" for a Pegasus upgrade.  It lets you re-roll your Stomp to-wound rolls... which, overall, tends to force another armor save from your opponent.

3-A) You might want to consider a Pistol for your BSB.  He has BS5, and is highly mobile on the Pegasus, and it increases his threat radius.

3-B)  Heh… Armour.  You Oxford-English people and your extra "u"s.  Sorry, me and my dumb sense of humor.

3-C) Overall, your BSB doesn't have much of a Ward Save (other than against Fire or War Machines)… and BSBs tend to be critical to compensate for the moderate LD of the Empire.  You might want to consider swapping out the Ironcurse Icon / Dragonhelm for at least the 5+ Ward Save Talisman.  That'll give your BSB 2+ Armor Save / 5+ Ward Save.

4) For your Warrior Priests, they can get both a Shield and a Two-Handed weapon.  So, you can use the shield to help get into melee… and then the hammer in melee.  With their moderate Initiative anyway, you might as well emphasize the HULK SMASH, by getting them the zwei-mace.

5) For your Wizard-Apprentice, what's wrong with Wind Blast?  It's one of the only spells to let you move an enemy unit out-of-turn.  It's a great-way to push units that you cannot charge on your turn, so your opponent ends up having to deal with the fact that if he moves them on his turn, it'll put them into your charge range.

5-A) Wind Blast also lets you slide missile units, so they won't have as clear an LoS… or slide enemy units in front of other enemy units, slogging up his battle line.

5-A-1) Not only that Wind Blast works great with spells like Fulminating Flame Cage, where each model takes a hit, if that model moves.  So you Cage a unit… and then you force the unit to move with the Wind Blast.  Or, since you're doing dual Heavens, slide a unit back into the potential impact area of a Comet of Cassandora.

5-A-2) And, not only that, you can actually push enemy units closer to your guys, mucking up an enemy battle line that way as well.

5-A-3) For example, I've actually force-shoved a unit a Black Riders, into a unit of Hex Wraiths that was moving into flanking position, causing wounds on both.  Mind you, I've done this on other units too, just this was the most recent time I used the spell.

5-A-4) Anyway, point being, I think you are underestimating the usefulness of Wind Blast.

6) For your knight units 10 - 12 (with characters) is really about as big as they should be.  Any more than that, and you're paying for a very, expensive +1 to CR from a rank.  I've used knight units from 6 - 15 in size, and any time it has gotten over 12, the unit has just become as sluggish as infantry, due to the additional space needed to move, wheel and Swift Reform.  And, larger units of Knights are trickier to hide behind terrain, and easier for enemy templates to scatter into them (or stay in them on small-ish scatters).

6-A) I would suggest you drop your knight units down to 10 - 12 size.  They'll still pack a punch, be highly mobile, and free up points you can use elsewhere.

6-A-1) Overall, I would think that three units of 10 - 12 knights would serve you better than 2 units of 16 knights.

6-A-2) You might want to look at the Steel Standard or Banner of Swiftness for your Inner Circle Knights.  Both banners add movement to your knights, overall increasing their threat radius.  The Steel Standard also has the added benefit that you'll be more likely to roll 8"+ on 3k2 charge/pursuit/flee move.

7) Over having a detachment of 5 archers, I'd just find the points to get a second unit of 10 archers.  I haven't been impressed with detachments at all.

7-A) And, with two independent Archer units, both can get musicians.  Now, while Archers Skirmish, they often fight "Fast Mover" type units, which usually lack any command upgrades.  Sometimes, just having the musician around to break ties is huge.

7-A-1) And +1 LD to rally is also important, when you have your Wizards hanging out with them.

8) Your Pistoliers really need Musicians.  Right now, without a Musician, they will be very iffy at pulling off "Feigned Flight" moves.

8-A) Also, Pistoliers tend to work outside of command radius', and the +1 LD to rally becomes huge for them.

8-B) I tend to field my Pistoliers in units of 6… with an Outridder.  The Outridder actually gives them a spot of reliable combat mischief, with his 4 shots at BS4.

9) Your Demigryph unit is… too large.  Remember, the second rank of Monstrous Cavalry only gets the attacks of the rider.  So… you're paying a lot of points for +1 to CR from the rank, and +3 attacks (from the 3 riders).

9-A)  Demigryphs tend to be in a unit of 3 or 4 max, because of the above.

9-B) Now, while I like full command in Demigryphs, keep in mind that if the Demigryphs lose combat and break, the Standard Bearer is auto-slain.  So… if you're not keeping that in mind for what the Demigryphs charge, you might be handing off free points to your opponent.

10) Something else to consider adding to your army would be a Storm Chaser Van… aka the Hurricanum.  Being a chariot, it can keep up with your mobile army.  It can self power, as it generates its own Power Die.  It gives you another option to attempt to lightning zorch enemy units, and it helps keep your Knights from being Knights of the Striking Out, from the +1 to hit.  And, being a chariot, if it needs to, it can crash into enemy units, causing impact hits.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts. ))

Offline Tier5

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Re: 2400 point Cavalry list (8th edition)
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 05:34:49 AM »
Hello Caroline, this is mostly a list of my own justifications, some parts of my list are a gamble (or are based on my understanding of the meta following the last time) and a lot is an attempt to trial and error some things that worked.

1. FAQ added item, the old staff from last edition (+1 to dispel, 35 points)

2. This is the small gamble, I expect to face enough characters to be +1/+1 all the time, I think it worth the risk for the extra attack on top of the likelihood of facing down more than one enemy character for greater rewards. If worst comes to worst I feed them my champion and attack their unit, otherwise it works with the other tricksters shard for when I fight unkillable BSBs, shrunken head shamans (killing him at initiative could win a face fight with savage orc hordes) and the occasional daemon.

While in the corner of his own unit the shard only threatens 3 of his own guys  (who do not get ward saves out of combat) and 1 guy in the fight (which could backfire I admit). The unit isn't the one with the Icon so thats not to worry.

3. He doesn't get a pegasus, he used to and thats why his equipment is a bit out there right now. Definitely thinking of putting at least a 5++ on him.

4. 2+ in CC is too good, I'd go down to 1+ if I can, their job is to live purely for hatred and utility spells and the GW detracts from that.

5. I like it on the wizard lord for better chances at casting the boosted version (good luck getting that cannon back up that hill). The apprentice is praying for curse and blizzard/convergence in order to follow the knights and blow bubbles.

6. I find that with units of 10 and 12 the unit becomes useless the moment I take 2 or 3 wounds and panics. With the full 18 models it means I can tank 6 wounds before losing attacks, I have a chance at breaking steadfast if I flank a horde and mostly because I can take the standard (6 or 7 by 3) units of chaos warriors and swordmasters head on, weather their attacks and still cause enough wounds to win combat and break their steadfast.
3 units of 10-12 are great for maneuvering but I find that they just don't have enough models to really make the 1+ save work. At S3/4 it takes 36 wounds to remove my back rank, 18 for S5, which is more than 1 round of combat for many units, leaving me with the chance to walk out the other side with units still 12 strong and capable of starting another fight.

And yeah, I'd love to have the banners up but right now I'm scraping the barrel, maybe after a small list revision I can drop some upgrades, throw steel on the inner circle and swiftness on the knights for some speed.

7. I take them as a detachment for a dirt cheap line of redirectors who can escort the level 2 up the field, draw a charge from something that should know better and put one hit onto a charmed shield ahead of time. 2 units of 10 feels like too many points into what are essentially glorified walking bait.

I probably should grab the musician over the banner though, I just like the banner for fortitude scenarios.

8. Yeah I feel like the pistoliers are the one unit that really deserve the 40 points to score 2 musicians and 2 outriders (maybe go all in and grab the repeater pistols). I have had success running them bare and just using them to put the 2 hits I need on 5+ save fast cav or T4 sabretooths and then dancing away into an AoE attack.

9. The demigryph unit its my big gamble, I want to stick the standard that grants the one reroll and use them in place of an anvil. The 2 extra guys are literally ablative wounds (I don't like units of 4 for panic reasons), generally I want them to just survive the first round of combat and come out wounded down to the standard size.

Come to think it, thats my whole MO here, take oversized unit, fight battle that usually leaves no real winner, win because I had spare wounds. I do have the possibility of dropping them down to bare bones units of 3 now that they don't have the captain anymore, I just have to hope I don't get comphammered for it.

10. I don't have one, I keep considering it but at M7 and no march I feel like it will be left behind very quickly. With this list I need to be the one to pick targets and move while the buff wagon seems to work better with halberd and greatsword units luring charges with detachments.
I was considering a war altar as well which would allow me to drop the priests in favour of a single Arch Lector, it would also struggle to keep up but I would love to have it follow a pair of demi units with its auras.

Thanks for the thoughts, I look forward to the reply.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 05:40:25 AM by Tier5 »

Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: 2400 point Cavalry list (8th edition)
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2015, 07:25:47 PM »
(( Tier5,

Just some quick thoughts.  I had longer ones, and stupid-touch-pad ruined it.

1) Do you know which FAQ, as I'm still not seeing it.  Anyway, I still don't find the staff worth it.  Usually spells are overcast anyway, and +1 to dispell doesn't really cover the difference.  For example, I've seen players regularly toss 4d6 to cast a 10+ requirement spell, just to make sure they cast it.  Overall, I'd save some points, and drop the staff. 

3) For your BSB, with the fact that he allows any LD reroll, he is well worth keeping safe.  The Cloak of Ulric is a fantabulous protective item, and lets the BSB really do what he's supposed to do.

4) Don't forget Hate only works on the first round of each, individual, melee.  As such, sometimes having at least one character still with a can-opener (i.e. zwei-mace) can help you knights on turns where they aren't able to charge through an enemy unit.

5) Fair enough.  As an aside, Fire and Shadow support wizards also work well with Heavens.  Fire is cheap, and easier for low-level mages to cast, and Shadow offers some awesome abilities to weaken enemy units, before you hit them with GREASED LIGHTNIN!

6) I think you're being a bit overly cautious.  Yes, it takes some significant damage to take out 5 - 6 knights... but it also takes a goodly amount of damage to take out 2 - 3 knights as well.  More importantly, though, you're really spending a ton of points, and not getting any use out of them.  With 18 knights in one unit, you'll get 13 attacks, max, from your knights (5 in the first rank, 2 from champ, 6 support).  But, if you have a unit of 12 knights, and a unit of 6 knights, you'll get potentially 20 knight attacks, plus upwards of 6 more horse kicks too.

6-A) More units also means more targets to dilute your opponents concentration, and more abilities to get supporting, flank charges off.

6-B)  Not to mention that, as long as you're within range of your Grandmaster, you're taking LD tests at base 10, with a re-roll from the BSB where applicable.

6-C)  Try it with units of 12 first, before going to 18.  You'll be able to absorb some damage before getting into melee, and while in melee, and still be able to put out some serious punch.  18 just gets unruly, sluggishly-mobile, and becomes an obvious target for enemy effects.

7) I think you're underestimating what Archers can do.  Their skirmish ability effective gives them 360-LOS, and 32" range.  While they do only have bows, given enough hits, something is going to fail an armor save.  Anyway, 10-PAX archer units doubles the effectiveness w/o greatly increasing their cost.  And, it adds to the ablative wounds for the wizard.

9) Again, I think you're missing how tough Demigryphons are.  T4, Multi-Wound, Armor Save 1+ is not easy to damage.  Just ask dwarves.  You'd be better served with two units of 3 Demigryphs... or one, oversized unit of 4.  At 6, you're just paying for a really expensive second rank... and getting little to show for it.

9-A) One unit of 6 Demigryphs gives you 9 gryph attacks, and 7 knight attacks (with champ).  Two units of three, gives you 18 gryph attacks, and 8 knight attacks (with two champs).  The Demigryph attack is what causes the damage.  The knight is just there to look pretty.

9-B) Also, Demigryphs get sluggish-movement as well when they start getting larger units, due to their increased base size / unit footprint.

9-C) Overall, I'd try out two units of 3, to see how it feels, over one unit of 6.

10) I thought Chariots could march move in 8th.  Did I miss something?

10-A) Anyway, if you don't think a Chariot could keep up, why not a Steam Tank?  That thing goes really well in cavalry armies, and brings its own cannon... if you really want to use the cannon.

Anyway, just some quick thoughts. ))

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: 2400 point Cavalry list (8th edition)
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2015, 12:22:01 AM »
1. BRB Official Update Version 1.9, p.5:

Reference Section – Arcane Items.
Add “STAFF OF SORCERY 35 points
The bearer receives a +1 bonus on attempts to dispel.”

Note: this Erratum was already added in the first update of 2010.

4. I agree with Tier5. The WP is there for hatred and his Prayers. Killing anything is a welcome but not necessary bonus.

6.  A unit of 10-12 knights is sufficient for all normal circumstances. There is no need or real benefit to have them 6X3 either.

7. To dot some t's and cross some i's: Archers do not have 360 degree LoS, even with reforms. In the shooting phase, they can only shoot within their front arc, and, after they have marched/reformed, they will suffer -1 to Hit. As a Wizard bunker, 10 is the right amount, and, as Caroline indicates, in the case of a Wizard Lord, a musician is well worth the investment.

9. I agree with Caroline. A unit of 6 is either too unwieldy or too exposed to templates in shooting and not exploiting their potential in melee. They are certainly far too expensive for ablative wounds. 

10. BRB p. 86: "When moving, the chariot model always uses the Movement characteristic of the beasts, although as the beasts are somewhat slowed by the chariot chassis, a chariot cannot march."
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Offline CarolineWellwater

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Re: 2400 point Cavalry list (8th edition)
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2015, 04:32:24 AM »
(( Hey Fidelis von Sigmaringen,

Quote
7. To dot some t's and cross some i's: Archers do not have 360 degree LoS, even with reforms. In the shooting phase, they can only shoot within their front arc, and, after they have marched/reformed, they will suffer -1 to Hit. As a Wizard bunker, 10 is the right amount, and, as Caroline indicates, in the case of a Wizard Lord, a musician is well worth the investment.

Well, I did say the effectively had 360-degree LoS, not 360-degree LoS.  That "effectively" is important :)  Since they can turn and rotate and move all they want (as long as they don't move more than 8"), and they can end facing in any direction... allowing them to shoot at the target they want.  But, yes, they do not have true-360-degree LoS... they have effectively 360-degree LoS, as long as you finish their movement with the model facing in the direction you want the unit to shoot.

As an aside, about Skirmish, the unit does get Stubborn when in woods... though I'm not certain if the unit would have Stubborn in "ruins" or "swamps" or "vegetable gardens".  RAW state Woods... my thought is that RAI would be "enter-able terrain feature".  QUESTION --> Was that ever addressed in a FAQ? ))

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: 2400 point Cavalry list (8th edition)
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2015, 08:54:24 AM »
No need for an FAQ. BRB p. 116 ff. specifies the different types of terrain. "Forests" is one such type. Swamps fall under Marshland, ruins could fall under Obstacles, Mystical Monuments, Buildings or Arcane Architecture. Only the type "Forests" provides the benefit of Stubborn to Skirmishers (and lone characters).

Regarding LoS, there is a significant difference between having 360 degree LoS and "effectively" having 360 degree LoS. By the time your Skirmishers get to shoot, it is often the case that the (rest of the) Movement, Magic and Shooting phases have changed the situation on the battlefield. And tricks like e.g. against the 6th edition Casket of Souls are impossible.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2015, 12:50:49 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)