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Author Topic: The 9th Age?  (Read 47986 times)

Offline middenheimer

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2016, 09:26:05 AM »
Hi all,

In my end of the world people are playing both 8th and 9th interchangeably :)  8th because it's what we're used to, 9th because it's new, fixed some problems (depending on your point of view) and the community driven 9th age books have re-enlivened some of the long neglected armies (such as my Brets which is nice, but they worked ok in 8th too :) ).  So, us oldies with established armies are still going for now...

The biggest sticking point raised locally so far has been not about rules, but about new players.  A few of us feel without a warhammer product on the shelves of the local games stores it will become more and more unlikely that warhammer will attract new players. :( And over time since the release of AoS we've been seeing a dramatic reduction/cease in warhammer events at the non-GW stores also which ain't boding well for the tournament scene  :(

We will see...

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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2016, 01:04:38 PM »
Suspect the overall Warhammer community is going to need to be individually responsible in each area for developing new players.  And not rely on local store owners to organize events.
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2016, 01:18:28 PM »
I'm curious, SOF, what are the army book elements that made 6th edition Empire play better than 8th edition Empire?

I would not so much couch it in the phrase 'play better' rather 'feel better'. Nothing the 8th added did I have any interest in fielding and from a background standpoint, I rather loathe the Demi-gryphs and Wizard wagons. While the 6th didn't go far enough to cover the more religious aspects of the Empire to my taste, I've always felt the list felt better than the 7th when the Sigmarite bit started to hit you over the head to the neglect of other gods.
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Offline Xathrodox86

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2016, 01:39:59 PM »
I'm curious, SOF, what are the army book elements that made 6th edition Empire play better than 8th edition Empire?

I would not so much couch it in the phrase 'play better' rather 'feel better'. Nothing the 8th added did I have any interest in fielding and from a background standpoint, I rather loathe the Demi-gryphs and Wizard wagons. While the 6th didn't go far enough to cover the more religious aspects of the Empire to my taste, I've always felt the list felt better than the 7th when the Sigmarite bit started to hit you over the head to the neglect of other gods.

My thoughts exactly. 6th was about normal people fighting against monsters, daemons, orks and other horrors. However they managed to triumph over them with the help of their faith in many different gods, strength of arms, technology and little magic (since it was mistrusted and unpredictable). Meanwhile 8th turned this down-to-earth faction into an army that fields monsters on a daily basis, has magic firing tanks and Sigmar-related symbolism was everywhere with little regard for other gods. I loved the artwork from 6th edition. 8th edition has some of the very worst that I've ever seen, with magical flying towers, soldiers constantly fighting daemons, everything being covered in skulls like in 40K and so on. That was not the Warhammer Fantasy that I fell in love with.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2016, 01:43:42 PM »
Well the 8th edition fluff aspects was certainly a bridge towards the nuts of W:AoS fluff aspects.  And now that I'm beginning to see this 9th Age stuff for what it is, I'm not even seeing much fluff there.
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Offline Minsc

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2016, 02:07:40 PM »
Well the 8th edition fluff aspects was certainly a bridge towards the nuts of W:AoS fluff aspects.  And now that I'm beginning to see this 9th Age stuff for what it is, I'm not even seeing much fluff there.

The 9th Age fluff is being written as we speak and isn't official yet.
Remember that the game is still in beta. The only AB who contains any amount of fluff right now is Undying Dynasties/Tomb Kings.

Offline Warlord

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2016, 09:58:44 AM »
9th age fluff is official? What does that mean?
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2016, 11:03:45 AM »
Official as in "accepted/approved by the 9th Age moderators."
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Offline Minsc

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2016, 12:22:39 PM »
9th age fluff is official? What does that mean?

I meant as in "released to the public/the players to read about".

Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2016, 03:20:34 PM »
Its the story behind the units, armies, and the world in general. Giving players a more immersive feel for the game they are playing.
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Offline KevinC

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #60 on: February 20, 2016, 03:52:00 PM »
I'm curious, SOF, what are the army book elements that made 6th edition Empire play better than 8th edition Empire?

I would not so much couch it in the phrase 'play better' rather 'feel better'. Nothing the 8th added did I have any interest in fielding and from a background standpoint, I rather loathe the Demi-gryphs and Wizard wagons. While the 6th didn't go far enough to cover the more religious aspects of the Empire to my taste, I've always felt the list felt better than the 7th when the Sigmarite bit started to hit you over the head to the neglect of other gods.

My thoughts exactly. 6th was about normal people fighting against monsters, daemons, orks and other horrors. However they managed to triumph over them with the help of their faith in many different gods, strength of arms, technology and little magic (since it was mistrusted and unpredictable). Meanwhile 8th turned this down-to-earth faction into an army that fields monsters on a daily basis, has magic firing tanks and Sigmar-related symbolism was everywhere with little regard for other gods. I loved the artwork from 6th edition. 8th edition has some of the very worst that I've ever seen, with magical flying towers, soldiers constantly fighting daemons, everything being covered in skulls like in 40K and so on. That was not the Warhammer Fantasy that I fell in love with.

Great points. However, you can ignore parts of the army list. For example, if you don't like the Gryphon-knights use more spearmen instead. I figure with the rules for hordes, steadfast, Detachments and Hold the Line! Empire troops are more useful than ever. Do you guys disagree?

For myself, I've always been a Goblin player first and foremost. This means I ignore all the Orcy elements of the O&G list. I don't care if other O&G players find the Savage Orc Horde to be a great option. I don't even see it as an option for me because I play Goblins.

The reasons why I always dislike the 6th edition army lists and love the 8th edition army lists, if because all the options. 6th edition has less options and more restrictions. 8th edition has more options and less restrictions. This is important to me because I like to see different and unusual armies. So for example, if I see four Empire armies at a tournament and they are all different – that's awesome (i.e. one army is all knights, another all infantry, etc). Though using tournaments is probably a bad example because of all the cookie cutter armies people use.

Larger army lists and more options promote more varied armies (especially in non-tournament play).
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2016, 08:49:58 PM »
Great points. However, you can ignore parts of the army list. For example, if you don't like the Gryphon-knights use more spearmen instead. I figure with the rules for hordes, steadfast, Detachments and Hold the Line! Empire troops are more useful than ever. Do you guys disagree?

For myself, I've always been a Goblin player first and foremost. This means I ignore all the Orcy elements of the O&G list. I don't care if other O&G players find the Savage Orc Horde to be a great option. I don't even see it as an option for me because I play Goblins.

The reasons why I always dislike the 6th edition army lists and love the 8th edition army lists, if because all the options. 6th edition has less options and more restrictions. 8th edition has more options and less restrictions. This is important to me because I like to see different and unusual armies. So for example, if I see four Empire armies at a tournament and they are all different – that's awesome (i.e. one army is all knights, another all infantry, etc). Though using tournaments is probably a bad example because of all the cookie cutter armies people use.

Larger army lists and more options promote more varied armies (especially in non-tournament play).

I'd argue the 7th edition book used in the 8th was still better than the 8th book. The change in detachments was not really a boon but merely a shift in how you used them. As a person who liked to employ them in forlorn hope sort of methods and count on no panic that they got psych rule bonuses really wasn't what I was looking for nor the removal of auto-flank charges. Further the fact that Crossbowmen and Handgunner inexplicably went to 9 pts, the 8th book was not very interesting to me.

I still don't see the 8th as having all that many more options than the 6th book which could take Dogs of War units, Regiments of Renown (many as special choices) and Kislev allies. That is at least a pool of 40 additional unit choices compared to Outriders, Witch Hunters, Arch Lectors, Wizard Wagons, Demi=Gryphs, and Rockets.
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Offline Minsc

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2016, 09:53:29 PM »
Agreed, as a infantry-player, I prefered playing our 7th Ed. book in 8th Ed, rather than our 8th Ed. book.

Halberdiers, Swordsmen, Crossbowmen, Handgunners, Greatswords and Flaggies* where cheaper, and detatchments where better, and the magicphase was more fun. (*Theese where actually useable in the 7th Ed. AB, unlike in the 8th Ed. AB where they where plain bad.)

I'd take that over buff-wagons and demigryphs any day.

I'll admit that I don't really have that many memories of playing the 6th Ed. AB in 7th Ed, since I started playing Empire just afew months before the 7th Ed. AB was released.

Offline grimgorgoroth

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2016, 06:09:48 PM »
Most of us here have moved to 9th Age. And we are very happy.
Glad you're happy. :::cheers:::  At the same time, how is the concept of "most of us here" being measured?

Because only 2 or 3 of our group preferred to stay with 8th edition while the rest of us (over 20) got into 9th Age where we all play at our club, and now we have a League call Dark Dwarf Age of Marcus. We also are doing the Tamurkhan campaign using rules of 9th. So interest is high

BTW, I'm Marcus el Piadoso the winner of last years league.

So yeah most of us are very happy and the few that refused to come on board just play with the same people over and over while our group has many more players to face and drink beer with after LOL

Offline KevinC

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2016, 06:48:55 PM »
Agreed, as a infantry-player, I prefered playing our 7th Ed. book in 8th Ed, rather than our 8th Ed. book.

Halberdiers, Swordsmen, Crossbowmen, Handgunners, Greatswords and Flaggies* where cheaper, and detatchments where better, and the magicphase was more fun. (*Theese where actually useable in the 7th Ed. AB, unlike in the 8th Ed. AB where they where plain bad.)

I'd take that over buff-wagons and demigryphs any day.

I'll admit that I don't really have that many memories of playing the 6th Ed. AB in 7th Ed, since I started playing Empire just afew months before the 7th Ed. AB was released.

I'm curious if you guys are saying that the 7th edition Empire army book is more balanced or merely you like it better because the troops were cheaper? Is the actually points cost a large factor in your minds?

I say this because I've played Goblins armies under every edition of their army book (4/5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th). My least favorite of the books, that's the 6th edition O&G book, was at the same time the MOST POWERFUL book for Goblins. In 6th edition in fact, Orcs became rarely seen (at least in the tournament scene) in favor for the 2-point Goblin. Night Goblins with hand weapon and shield were 2 points! Not to mention greenskin magic was extremely powerful.

When the 7th edition O&G book game out, Goblins were raised to 3 points. I was pleased with this increase because they became balanced in my eyes. Meanwhile many O&G players complained how their Goblins increased in points by 50%.  :icon_rolleyes:

Is this what you guys are concerned about with when you say you prefer older Empire books? Because, of course, if a unit has a cheaper points cost they are better. Empire spearmen would be so good if they were 3 points each. I'm asking to try and put your thoughts into perspective. Thanks!
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2016, 07:46:25 PM »
KevinC,

Here's my take on the issue of 7th ed vs. 8th ed vs. 9th Age: I'd like to have a game with any, if I only had the time.  :smile2:

Thinking aloud...

The 7th ed AB was more balanced, whereas the 8th ed AB clearly made some units inferior and other (some completely new) units very powerful. This with the same edition ABs and BRBs. Simply, it felt bad playing with the army I had built for the 7th ed, and I didn't like the idea of a major modification just because GW put out new rules.

I think 7th ed AB with 8th ed BRB still had good interior balance, and played games with that combo. But the laser artillery and indirect clearly made Empire a bit too powerful, and warranted the direction that the 8th AB took (although it went too far with most black powder units). Still, there was too much of the "buy this nice centerpiece gadget" in the 8th edition. Just a little bit too much. And there was too much random magic.

As to the 9th Age Empire, I really like the way they handle the units, making all of them playable and bringing back some lost units and lost combat roles (Reiksguard on foot, Pistoliers charge!). It definitely is WHFB, simply because it has been built on that engine, and has all those characteristic units. No doubt about that.

Then again, the 8th ed introduced Horde and Supporting Attacks, neither of which I think make much sense. I see them as inferior game design that promotes bloodfests instead of tactics. I'd rather maneuver than just hack and slash. IIRC these rules are still in the 9th Age, and I'm hoping the good people would rethink them. (Correct me if I'm wrong, haven't read the rules for some months.)

All this said, the 9th Age is definitely the new generally shared edition after the 8th, for me. Also partially because it seems to be the most played version around where I live (right after KoW). When I have the time, there will come games in the local club using this system. A test game with the 7th ed showed that I had somewhat romantic memories of how that edition plays, and indeed I like some of the gamey aspects of the 8th ed, and enjoy having them in the 9th Age.

Still, there's always hope for a WHFB game fitting to my vision (everyone has this, I guess). KoW plays differently, is a different game I like, but not a 1:1 substitute for any WHFB edition.

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 09:40:50 PM by Zygmund »
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Offline Minsc

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2016, 08:38:27 PM »
KevinC; Did you even read my post? I thought I explained quite well why I prefered playing infantry-lists with the 7th Ed. AB over the 8th Ed. AB, and that I found it better balanced internally. As for external balance, it was pretty good since it was a early 7th Ed. AB.


« Last Edit: February 22, 2016, 08:43:32 PM by Minsc »

Offline Warlord

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2016, 09:32:46 AM »
KevinC,

The 7th ed Empire armybook had detachment rules that worked well. 8th discarded those, and instead chose to give buffs everywhere. Its 2 drastically different styles. Furthermore, 8th became about who cam create the biggest bloodbath, rather than who uses better tactics. Empire players generally like playing for tactics.

Regarding your posts about O&G, I say thank you. I now know why you like 8th ed so much, and I have to agree - the 8th ed O&G book is my favourite iteration of O&G too.
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2016, 03:04:13 PM »
Most of us here have moved to 9th Age. And we are very happy.
Glad you're happy. :::cheers:::  At the same time, how is the concept of "most of us here" being measured?
Because only 2 or 3 of our group preferred to stay with 8th edition while the rest of us (over 20) got into 9th Age where we all play at our club, and now we have a League call Dark Dwarf Age of Marcus. We also are doing the Tamurkhan campaign using rules of 9th. So interest is high

BTW, I'm Marcus el Piadoso the winner of last years league.

So yeah most of us are very happy and the few that refused to come on board just play with the same people over and over while our group has many more players to face and drink beer with after LOL
Ah, cool, thanks for the clarification. :::cheers:::
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Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2016, 04:01:16 PM »

I'm curious if you guys are saying that the 7th edition Empire army book is more balanced or merely you like it better because the troops were cheaper? Is the actually points cost a large factor in your minds?

Is this what you guys are concerned about with when you say you prefer older Empire books? Because, of course, if a unit has a cheaper points cost they are better. Empire spearmen would be so good if they were 3 points each. I'm asking to try and put your thoughts into perspective. Thanks!

No, we are not concerned about overpowered and cheapness. We like the balance. 7th edition AB was a more balanced army book. While 8th edition changes were so bad for internal balance that it made infantry fairly useless. 8th edition armybook is just Demi-Gryphons and steam tanks. For Core you can take knights and be careful with them or you can take infantry and hide them in the corner.

The only thing that was kinda OP in the 7th AB would have been the mortar. But even that was situational. It was OP against elf armies but against most other armies it was average.


KevinC; Did you even read my post? I thought I explained quite well why I prefered playing infantry-lists with the 7th Ed. AB over the 8th Ed. AB, and that I found it better balanced internally. As for external balance, it was pretty good since it was a early 7th Ed. AB.

Na, you pretty much just said you liked it because the troops were cheaper.
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Offline Minsc

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2016, 05:30:27 PM »
Na, you pretty much just said you liked it because the troops were cheaper.

Did I now?
I count four reasons, not just one:

Quote from: Minsc
Agreed, as a infantry-player, I prefered playing our 7th Ed. book in 8th Ed, rather than our 8th Ed. book.

Halberdiers, Swordsmen, Crossbowmen, Handgunners, Greatswords and Flaggies*(3) where cheaper(1), and detatchments where better(2), and the magicphase was more fun(4). (*Theese where actually useable(3) in the 7th Ed. AB, unlike in the 8th Ed. AB where they where plain bad.)

I'd take that over buff-wagons and demigryphs any day.

I'll admit that I don't really have that many memories of playing the 6th Ed. AB in 7th Ed, since I started playing Empire just afew months before the 7th Ed. AB was released.

1) Cheaper infantry, correct. This also lead to better internal balance, where infantry-lists were more viable compared to 8th Ed's Knight/Demigryph/Steamtank spamm supported by warmachines.

2) The detatchment-rule was both better, more fun and more tactical, again something that favoured infantry.

3) Flaggies where a solid unit in 7th, which lead to the book as a whole (and especially infantry-lists) having better internal balance.

4) The magicphase was more fun. This is highly subjective, and was more a byproduct of having a 7th Ed. AB in 8th Ed, but it's still something I liked.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 05:36:16 PM by Minsc »

Offline grimgorgoroth

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2016, 07:47:37 PM »
I like the new detahment rules for example they now have to be 6" away and can support any Parent unit within range, plus both units may combine their rank bonus.

Taken from the rule book:

Parent Units And Support Units

Certain units in this Army Book are designated as either Parent Units or Support Units. Support Units are considered
Insignificant to Parent Units and may perform Supporting Actions.

Supporting Actions
Whenever a Parent Unit is the target of a charge, or successfully declare a charge, a Support Unit within 6” ofthe Parent
Unit may perform one of the following actions:

1. The Support Unit may Stand and Shoot as if itwere the target ofthe charge, applying all usual restrictions for a
Stand and Shoot reaction.

2. The Support Unit may declare a Charge upon an enemy unit which has successfully Charged a Parent Unit,
applying all usual restrictions for Charging. This counter-charge is completed during your opponent's turn,
after all charge movements have been finalized, but before the Compulsory Movement Sub-phase.

3. The SupportUnit may declare a charge against the same unit that the ParentUnit has declared a charge against.
At the end of the round of combat,when calculating the CombatResolution, both units may combine their rank
bonus (following all normal restrictions), up to maximum of +6.

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Offline Syn Ace

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2016, 02:54:30 AM »
KevinC,

 Furthermore, 8th became about who cam create the biggest bloodbath, rather than who uses better tactics. Empire players generally like playing for tactics.


I disagree with this assessment.
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2016, 03:47:01 AM »
I disagree with this assessment.

I think Warlord may be off on the tactics point, being that can be a bit subjective, but the entire 8th ruleset is very much geared to the bloodbath sort of setting. Everything is about throwing gobs of dice at a combat that you have ideally prepared with the proper augments or hexes to make your gobs of dice better. While removing or limiting what were annoying 'tactical' but generally bullshit gamey movement things that were a large part of 6th/7th, they pushed this way to far. If you have a look at the 8th edition spell lores they are almost entirely devoid of spells that aid/hinder movement, aid/hinder shooting, or basically any other aspect of the game that might come into play over just who will have the dice roll advantage in a combat. Yes also taking out the number of magic movement spells was helpful in some ways removing things like Rainlord or Commandments of Brass to shut down enemy warmachines was just perplexing.

I will say I was pleased in looking over the 9th Paths or whatever lores are called this has been altered a good deal (though not quite as much as I would like).
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Offline Syn Ace

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Re: The 9th Age?
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2016, 04:31:57 AM »
Yeah, you rolled more dice, but I didn't mind -- it's a battle not 5 guys fighting while everyone else stands around (my favorite spot in an SCA battle line back in the day was the second rank clubbing guys in the enemy 1st rank). To me, the game was still tactical and how you deployed and moved was important. Maybe not as important as in 7th, but as I've said before, I found that style of play very unsatisfying and too chess like and not a proper battle.

Oh well, to each his own I guess.
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