Topic: What In The Name Of Sigmar....

[They_Call_Him_Thortron]

So... would someone please explain to me just what exactly happened to Warhammer, both in terms of fluff/background and in terms of the decisions made by GW in literally destroying the thirty-plus year old WFB gaming system?  I have been out of the hobby for a bit and feel like a veritable Rip Van Winkle in returning to the hobby only to find that everything official has irrevocably changed for the worse.

Any information would be appreciated.  Thanks.

- T.C.H. Thortron

[The Peacemaker]

Warhammer fantasy rules wise is basically 40k. Except the rules are not very nit-picky so its easy to get people to play.

The fluff and story wise its basically 40k. The old world got sucked into the warp and got popped back out. Sigmar has a space station above the planet, has created his first genetically/psychically modified space marines and is reconquering the world.
The world, in 40k terms, is caught in a warp storm and has bubble realities where the various armies can fight in different terrain and environments.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

What the Peacemaker says, but to be more precise: Warhammer Fantasy Battles does not exist anymore. It has been replaced by Age of Sigmar. One of the reasons for this decision was clearly IP, as indicated by changing "Elves" to "Aelfs," "Orks" to "Orruks" etc. The main reason is apparently GW's self-identification as a modelling company only. The binning of WFB has alienated a large section of GW's WFB customer base (probably even a majority) in the hope of attracting new and younger customers. That said, most of the revenues came from 40K. As Peacemaker indicates, it is reminiscent of 40K in fluff, rules and models (one could even call it 4K), and perhaps it is also evisaged as a stepping stone to 40K. It is still a bit early to judge the success of failure, but at least the early indications there are do not bode well. It is also remakable that the licence fees of Total War - Warhammer (based on the old WFB) has been a huge boost to GW revenues - clearly a wasted opportunity for marketing WFB.

[jtrowell]

In any case, don't sell your warhammer armies yet.

First there is always the possibility that GW might someday be bought off and rebirth "Warhammer Classic" or something like that.

But even if this never happen, you have other options for your models, among them the two main ones are probably 9th age and Kings of War

9th age is a fan made Warhammer "8.5th edition", Kings of War is a wargame by Mantic, with rules written by Allesio Calvatore (ex GW) and their second edition has been balanced with a public beta test organized by a "Rules comitee" that did a really great work.

To quote someone from way back on warseer.com:

"If you loved Warhammer *because* of its fiddly bits, you will probably love 9th age.
If you loved Warhammer *despite* its fiddly bits you will probably love Kings of War"

Both kings of war and 9th age have options to more or less all units not only from the Empire list, but also all other Warhammer armies (and more), so if you and your friends already have warhammer armies, you can probably simply use them with eitheir of those two games.

Being fan made 9th age is free to download, and Mantic also has a free version of the rules for Kings of War (the free army lists don't have all units, but the online editor at http://kow2.easyarmy.com does include all options)

[They_Call_Him_Thortron]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all very much for your replies, although I admit I am as confused as ever to just exactly what happened to the Old World (and I don't even dare try to wrap my mind around the thought processes of the GW team, to just scrap a perfectly good fantasy wargame after 30 years in the making...) 

So to confirm, the Old World was sucked into the warp and now all the various races have their own "bubble" realities, presumably just floating around into each other while Sigmar and his psuedo-Space Marines try to reconquer what could very well be described a daemon world?

Please, please tell me that I somehow misread what you all told me....

Cheers!

- T.C.H. Thortron

[Zygmund]

So to confirm, the Old World was sucked into the warp and now all the various races have their own "bubble" realities, presumably just floating around into each other while Sigmar and his psuedo-Space Marines try to reconquer what could very well be described a daemon world?

Please, please tell me that I somehow misread what you all told me....

I'm afraid that's a good & fitting description.

Dwarfs seem to live with Men now. At least ordinary dwarfs, dunno about the the Fyreslayers. And many other 'good' races work together under the umbrella of 'Order Grand Alliance'. I think it's the four Grand Alliances that denote the main factions and goals of the new warpgate universe: Order (men, dwarfs, elfs, lizardmen, stormcasts), Chaos (beastmen, warriors of chaos, daemons, skaven), Death (undead), Destruction (orks & ogres). Brets and Tomb Kings are no more.

Naturally, there is only war. Haven't heard of the scheming, corruption and worldliness of the Old World in the new 'setting'.

-Z

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Or to use the IP correct names:  Seraphon (old Lizardmen), Sylvaneth (part of old Wood Elves), Duardin (Dwarves), Aelfs (Elves), Orruks & Grots (old orks & Goblins).

[Xathrodox86]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all very much for your replies, although I admit I am as confused as ever to just exactly what happened to the Old World (and I don't even dare try to wrap my mind around the thought processes of the GW team, to just scrap a perfectly good fantasy wargame after 30 years in the making...) 

So to confirm, the Old World was sucked into the warp and now all the various races have their own "bubble" realities, presumably just floating around into each other while Sigmar and his psuedo-Space Marines try to reconquer what could very well be described a daemon world?

Please, please tell me that I somehow misread what you all told me....

Cheers!

- T.C.H. Thortron

The dream is dead my friend. Only bitterness remains. Since the destruction of the Old World I've really became jaded and cynical when it comes to that hobby. The problem is that the fate of WFB wasn't long in coming. GW really put too much emphasis on 40K and ceased the developement of its Fantasy counterpart. Retcons, poor made armies, horrendous army book balance and high entry price - these were just some of its biggest problems. Add to that a complete lack of originality (you can only ride on the "like reneissance Europe but with Dragons!" for so long) and recycling of classic fantasy tropes, and you have a disaster.

Still, I think that Age of Sigmar is worse.

[Bartolo Miachevelia]

The fun thing is that to cancel World of Warhammer they made five volumes in which more or less they cancel all characters that had no miniature or a old one making them die  often in silly ways , there're many weirds events that seem the contrary of previous thirty years of WHFB and many things are resolved by even more silly ' deus ex machina' ideas.

Then came AoS a mash up of  Planescape and Wh40k with elements leeched from the BG they canceled(ironic).

Many says that WHFB wasn't selling but the truth is that GW wasn't  able to sell it anymore.

They think Old World went away with a bang but it was a pathetic whimper 

[Syn Ace]

With lots of companies making knockoffs of GW fantasy models or people substituting historical models when possible, and sales being a sliver of 40K, it's not surprising GW killed WFB. I mean, it seemed like a lot of members of this forum used other companies' models.

40K seems like it would be a bit easier to defend IP wise, but there are still companies making 40K knockoffs.

[Xathrodox86]

The fun thing is that to cancel World of Warhammer they made five volumes in which more or less they cancel all characters that had no miniature or a old one making them die  often in silly ways , there're many weirds events that seem the contrary of previous thirty years of WHFB and many things are resolved by even more silly ' deus ex machina' ideas.

Then came AoS a mash up of  Planescape and Wh40k with elements leeched from the BG they canceled(ironic).

Many says that WHFB wasn't selling but the truth is that GW wasn't  able to sell it anymore.

They think Old World went away with a bang but it was a pathetic whimper 

More like a muffled fart in the bath.

[Zak]

that loud popping sound was my head after the AoS release...however, ive found 9th age to be a good replacement and of course Warhammer total war

[Xathrodox86]

that loud popping sound was my head after the AoS release...however, ive found 9th age to be a good replacement and of course Warhammer total war

There's also Mordheim, Warhammer Quest, Vermintide and older games, such as Mark of Chaos, Shadow of the Horned Rat and Dark Omen.

[They_Call_Him_Thortron]

What a bloody and absolute tragedy. 

Thank you lads for answering my query.  9th Age seems to be the way to go, as does Oldhammer of previous editions.  I just can't bring myself to abandon the background of the Old World. 

I just can't help but wonder why...  On that topic, can anyone pinpoint just where exactly GW jumped off the deep end and went from being a games company that made miniatures to a miniatures company that made games, with the corresponding abandonment of DIY projects and conversions to a standard of GW/Forgeworld or else?

Cheers!

- T.C.H. Thortron

[jtrowell]

"Games Workshop is in the business of selling toy soldiers to children."
- Tom Kirby, (former) Chairman of Games Workshop PLC *He is still there, though.

"...we recruit for attitude, not for skills."
- Tom Kirby, 2013 Chairman's permeable
http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/CHAIRMAN-statement-final.pdf
(Note how he claims it's to provide quality service and good attitudes, but avoids mention of customer complaints and what exactly those "desired" attitudes are).

-Mr. Merrett* described Games Day to the jury as a Games Workshop ... their "favorite hobby activity; buying things from Games Workshop".
   * former head of IP at GW during the Chapterhouse affaire

   
Also this happened :
(yes, even the statue and the salary freeze for normal staff whils still paying more or less their whole profits as dividents to the shareholders, including one Mr Kirby)

[Xathrodox86]

These guys don't even pretend to be evil...

[patsy02]

That's a comedic level of corporate ineptitude.

Makes sense when you look at how a bunch of amateurs and online volunteers made the best edition of Warhammer ever over the course of a few months.

Warhammer was nearly dead at my gaming club two years ago, with only 8 locals bothering to show up to the 'big' local tournament. To contrast, the 40k tournament at the time saw 36 participants. This year there were 20 9th age players, and that's with a competing KoW tournament going at the same time.

[Finlay]

(and I don't even dare try to wrap my mind around the thought processes of the GW team, to just scrap a perfectly good fantasy wargame after 30 years in the making...) 

Simples, it didn't make any money.





I THINK that the main culprits behind "we do models not games" have been ousted now.

The new CEO seems to have led some decent changes, including resurecting specialist games, loads of good cheap starter box sets, and some individual army box sets offering big savings.
There were also 2 people working in my GW last time I went in, so perhaps they've abandoned the terrible 1 man store policy?

Having said all that, there are rumours they are possibly going to "end times" 40k as well. If they do that, i'll never give GW another penny.

[Gankom]

There was actually 4 in my local GW the other day. One was a new guy getting trained, but from what I heard there's always two or three in the store.

The past year or so has been really good for models and sets.

[Gneisenau]

I just can't help but wonder why...  On that topic, can anyone pinpoint just where exactly GW jumped off the deep end and went from being a games company that made miniatures to a miniatures company that made games, with the corresponding abandonment of DIY projects and conversions to a standard of GW/Forgeworld or else?

Tricky. Probably at some point in time between the departure of Rick Priestly and the departure of Alessio Cavatore.

[ZeroTwentythree]

I just can't help but wonder why...  On that topic, can anyone pinpoint just where exactly GW jumped off the deep end and went from being a games company that made miniatures to a miniatures company that made games, with the corresponding abandonment of DIY projects and conversions to a standard of GW/Forgeworld or else?

Didn't Citadel/Brian Ansell collaborate with, and later aquire GW, back in the day, as a way to sell miniatures?

[Zygmund]

Didn't Citadel/Brian Ansell collaborate with, and later aquire GW, back in the day, as a way to sell miniatures?

That's the way it went, as far as I've gathered from insider interviews, mostly Priestley and Ansell. There's also the nice book Designers & Dragons by Shannon Applecline, a history of the RPG industry over 40 years, including a chapter on Citadel/GW.

Citadel was making miniatures. Brian Ansell brought Rick Priestley in to write game rules for those miniatures, in order to sell them. To sell them more as armies. They wrote "Roleplaying game" on the WHFB cover mostly because it sold - and because there was a strong connection with the style of WHFB gaming (referees) and roleplaying (game masters).

The first editions of Warhammer Fantasy included such races as Citadel made figures for. There wasn't much of a world, just generic Tolkien/Conan/Moorcock fantasy and battles. The success of the concept let GW create the world and combine figures design and world design in a manner that made some fans think they made the world and the game first, and only then made the miniatures.

GW was bought because it had an existing storefront in several cities. Years later GW was transformed into GW/Citadel shop only, and they stopped publishing & supporting & selling other games. This changed White Dwarf too. The first narrowing down of business perspective.

All of this is part of the good old 80's development. It was and wasn't considered bad and evil back then. It helped GW/Citadel to create Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K. Then the success of these (and their universes) put GW more and more on one track, to support its success. And once it was big enough, the owner(s) thought it nice to list on the stock market. Some might say that was the big chance, both within the company and for its market strategy regarding its fans.

But they started as a miniatures company, making miniatures rules to support their sales.



While I'm here, here's my 2d on the end of Warhammer/Old World:

My guess is that 8th ed Warhammer (7/2010) started as a genuine effort to make the game better and create a new series of balanced army books. They kept publishing those army books until Empire (4/2012). Then there was an 8 month hiatus. I guess something happened then and there. The rest of the 8th ed army books and campaign supplements were published fast (9 books between 2/2013 and 5/2014), but were then followed by the increasingly sloppily written End Times books. From 2015 the End Times books started to include rules or rulings that started to visibly erode the game. At that time it was clear that support for both the game and the Old World as we knew them would change. For the company, the choice probably was clear around summer/fall 2012.

-Z

[Gneisenau]

Great post there.

[Darknight]

(and I don't even dare try to wrap my mind around the thought processes of the GW team, to just scrap a perfectly good fantasy wargame after 30 years in the making...) 

Simples, it didn't make any money.





I THINK that the main culprits behind "we do models not games" have been ousted now.

The new CEO seems to have led some decent changes, including resurecting specialist games, loads of good cheap starter box sets, and some individual army box sets offering big savings.
There were also 2 people working in my GW last time I went in, so perhaps they've abandoned the terrible 1 man store policy?

Having said all that, there are rumours they are possibly going to "end times" 40k as well. If they do that, i'll never give GW another penny.

Very valid post here from Finlay - on the subject of new kinds of games; anyone seen that Chaos gladiator thing? What's that about, then?

The "Time of Ending" is something I could see them doing, but I can't imagine they would handle it like AoS. 40K sells well enough. I could see them doing 30K, 40K, and 41K as settings using the same basic rules and semi-interchangeable figures.

[Bartolo Miachevelia]

I just can't help but wonder why...  On that topic, can anyone pinpoint just where exactly GW jumped off the deep end and went from being a games company that made miniatures to a miniatures company that made games, with the corresponding abandonment of DIY projects and conversions to a standard of GW/Forgeworld or else?

I think it was after Lotr bubble, during Seventh edition, where SoC lists  were scrapped, the fluff of Chaos annihilated with Demons,WoC,Beastmen Books, no more supplements, and so on.