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Author Topic: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire  (Read 1153 times)

Offline Zygmund

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Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« on: April 15, 2017, 09:46:09 PM »
Hobby time well spent in browsing old books.

So where did the Empire get the Landsknecht look which nowadays is held so dear by the old guard, us?

Back in early 1980s, Citadel worked with Ral Partha for a while. RP had a 25mm Renaissance range with Landsknecht style costumes. But that didn't leave any kind of lasting imprint on Citadel figures. I wonder if somebody built a Warhammer army with the RP Landsknechts already back then?

For the whole 1980s, the Citadel Fighters and accompanied RPG Human/Good lines followed a medievealesque/Tolkienesque fantasy look, with perhaps Italian/Burgundian late medieval/renaissance details, like vests and hats. Perhaps the armour was later 15th century, notably in the Big Fighters series. A couple of the Fighter figures had the puff. Slash was quite common actually. Early Elves also had some Renaissance in them. There were also Vikings, and a high medieval line with specifically 11th and 12th century figurines. So pretty much everything for Humans.

The 1987 edition, or the famous 3rd edition, introduced the WH Old World. It was followed in 1988 by WH Armies, which for the first time introduced fixed army lists for the game. (They were quite relaxed, with few obligatory units and a wide variety of possible allied contingents).

Browsing the 1987 rulebook, I found only one picture with Landsknecht inspiration:


The Empire list in 1988 had two obligatory units (in addition to the one obligatory character): Halberdiers and Crossbowmen. This is notably a 14th/15th century mainland Europe infantry combination, so 100YW, Hussite Wars, Burgundian Wars, and early Italian wars. The pictures for Empire do not have Landsknecht costumes:



The cannon clearly is of the early transportable type, 'medieval' or 'Burgundian':


So it looks like the introduction of a specific Empire entry with its specific troop choices did not create a Landsknecht style infantry look. Makes sense, because Citadel/GW had to keep selling their existing figures.


But the allies & mercenaries part of the 1988 Armies book gets interesting. Is the Halberdier wearing a later 15th century or even early 16th century Landsknecht style costume? The hat surely is boisterous:


The Estalian infantry is wearing 16th century 'Spanish' fashion:


And finally, we get even the 'landsknecht' word mentioned, with Nulner Landsknechtes, even if the costume still echoes the existing Citadel Fighter line with less puff:

(He's the 1987 Dogs of War Cowden, later an ordinary Fighter and then specified as a Spearman.)

So I guess this introduced the idea of Landsknechts in the Old World.

Interestingly, the first completely Landsknecht style figure set also came out in 1988, but not by Citadel itself. This was the Marauder MM61 Fighter Command. The rest of their contemporary Fighters still followed the late medieval look, but the 1991 MB1 Dwarf Regiment (with Spears!) had a the Landsknecht flavour.



Thus, the real change into Italian/Landsknecht costumes came with the completely new Perry line in 1991/1992, and the 4th ed Army Book. This also changed the Empire into a 1500 or early 16th century army, with new styles of artillery carriages, horse barding, and a prominence of handgunners (with the late 1990s Dogs of War locating the crossbow more in the south). But Empire completely lost pikes, and halberds stayed the hallmark of Empire infantry (at least in the background texts). So a peculiar combination of 15th and early 16th century arms and costume styles.

And this look started to wane already with the 7th ed State Troop figures, was it in 2007. The last puff & slash by GW were the current Greatswords, Huntsmen and the Empire/Freeguild General. Since then (the early 8th ed), the Perry brothers & the sculptor of the Greatswords have left GW, and Empire was officially overrun. I guess we need not hope for a Landsknecht revival by GW.

Interested to hear opinions & additions & corrections by the elders & other collectors.  :-)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 10:38:46 PM by Zygmund »
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2017, 11:15:15 PM »
Being more of the Middle Guard and a scion of the glorious 6th edition, I'll have largely to go on the information about earlier editions presented here.

Could it be that 4th edition would be about the time where Warhammer was big enough to be able to support dedicated miniature ranges, rather than use historicals or generic stock fantasy? That would enable the launch of a new, unique look and concept. Empire as we know it may have the look of a German Renaissance army, but contains troop types that would have been anachronistic in such a setting, such as shield-using swordsmen and spearmen. That might have been motivated by making Empire gamistically still somewhat in line with medievalish fantasy, or by wanting to be a unique creation rather than a historical carbon copy. Or it might just be to make it harder to use other manufacturers' figs. I pity any young uns who try to get Empire swordsmen for T9A. Fortunately for us, the swordsmen that are the hardest to procure are also the ones we were most likely to build during 6e.

Before Empire went the way of the landsknecht, was it really much different from Bretonnia? Differentiating Empire and Bretonnia may have been a motivation too.

Semi-related topic, when did pistoliers first appear, and how were they originally described? I always thought it curious that they made a total about-face from 6e to 7e. In 6e, they were in effect much like aggressive Swedish pistol-in-your-face light cavalry. In 7e, they're suddenly shooty and close combat averse caracole cavalry, which is arguably more German but a bit contextually implausible, considering how such cavalry tactics were historically a response to the proliferation of pike, something that isn't happening in the Old World among the armies that Empire forces are expected to fight against.
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Offline Naitsabes

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2017, 05:53:29 AM »
nothing to add regarding landsknecht fashion, Zygmund summed it up really well.

Pistoliers were around in 4th edition and did not have the fusilade rule so were pretty similar to 8th. I don't know if recent GW writers thought in historical terms, my guess is the design brief for 8th was 'remove special rules' and so they did. Maybe I am not giving them enough credit.
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Offline Baron von Klatz

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2017, 07:28:26 AM »
Eh, I liked it because it went with the Order philosophy of recruits starting out ranged to get experience for the horrors of war then changing to melee focused once they became veteran(like the high elf militia) which was the opposite of factions like goblins and skaven who started out putting their expendables in the meat-grinder and then upgrading to ranged units because they earned the privilege to fight from safety.

I found it a nice foil to the Bretonnian knight errant and why their cavaliers were superior to Empire knights who started out relying on ranged tactics where the errants were thrown into melee immediately and culled the weaker warriors.
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2017, 08:14:04 AM »
Citadel/GW didn't have figures for Pistoliers before the 4th ed. Since pistol-using Reiters were a distinctly 16th century concept, this further promotes the 4th ed idea of Empire as the 16th century Holy Roman Empire faction.

So they kind of created this faction in 1987/1988, but in its 'Burgundian Wars' stage. Then in the 4th ed they went for the early 16th century looks, with some period tactics (but omitting other tactics, like the pike). But they also added fantasy through the Popemobile, and maybe an echo of the Hussite Wars with the War Wagon. Hmm... It's quite fantastical actually. So more likely ties to the daVinci sketches, which brought us the Engineers' Guild, repeating muskets and the Steam Tank.

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The 7th ed Pistoliers as younger sons of nobility never made sense to me. You don't learn cavalry charge by shooting at range, so they were not getting the practice they would later need. Also, why would the fathers/elders send their noble sons into battle wearing light armour and no barding? Do they want their sons to die? (the Pistolier figures clearly had heavy armour, which was the best at the time).

Otherwise I liked the 7th ed army list very much.

The Outriders with their special weapons were originally from the Engineers' Guild, as was the War Wagon. Which makes sense, multiple-barrel weapons being the experimental field of the Engineers.

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Offline Steve63

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2017, 12:45:47 PM »
I pretty much agree with everything Zygmund says and I said as much in a discussion I got drawn into over on the Oldhammer Forum.
http://forum.oldhammer.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10077  But Zygmund said it a lot better  :eusa_clap:
I remember those Marauder MM61 fighters and loving the command but being disappointed with the troops, as I'd bought and painted my first metal historical wargames "army" around 1986 and they were surprise, surprise Landsknechts.
The Empire army I'm currently building I want to have an Italian Wars flavour (1494-1559) so lots of pike, supplied by the DoW and including the fantastic inventions of Leonardo da Vinci (1452-1519) Birdmen of Catrazza, Steam Tank et al.
 :::cheers:::

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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2017, 11:05:03 PM »
The 7th ed Pistoliers as younger sons of nobility never made sense to me. You don't learn cavalry charge by shooting at range, so they were not getting the practice they would later need. Also, why would the fathers/elders send their noble sons into battle wearing light armour and no barding? Do they want their sons to die? (the Pistolier figures clearly had heavy armour, which was the best at the time).

The idea of pistoliers being younger sons dates at least from 6th edition. One should never confuse game rules with actual history, but pistoliers being light cavalry with hit and run tactics, it does make at least some sense for them to sacrifice protection for mobility.
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 07:24:08 AM »
Eh, I liked it because it went with the Order philosophy of recruits starting out ranged to get experience for the horrors of war then changing to melee focused once they became veteran(like the high elf militia) which was the opposite of factions like goblins and skaven who started out putting their expendables in the meat-grinder and then upgrading to ranged units because they earned the privilege to fight from safety.

I found it a nice foil to the Bretonnian knight errant and why their cavaliers were superior to Empire knights who started out relying on ranged tactics where the errants were thrown into melee immediately and culled the weaker warriors.

Did they generalize that concept to all Order armies in Age of Sigmar? I know it has been like that with the High Elf militia at least since 6e. It never made much sense to me though. Archery is a skill-intensive way of fighting, and spearelfery a drill-intensive one (probably comparable to pikemen, as they've always fought in an extra rank compared to regular spear-users). Switching from one to the other would waste accumulated experience and leave you with a noob, I doubt there is really that much overlap between the training needed for both. Some basic drill and moving while maintaining formation, but that's it. I hope T9A doesn't ape Warhammer in this.
The only good thing about 7th ed heads is that they look particularly inbred and superstitious which is perfect for Stirlanders

Offline Zygmund

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 09:55:44 AM »
One should never confuse game rules with actual history, but pistoliers being light cavalry with hit and run tactics, it does make at least some sense for them to sacrifice protection for mobility.

Game rules usually echo some sort of verisimilitude, especially when the official figures are 1:1 replicas of a type of combat force.
I never had a problem with Pistoliers' armour in the game. Fast cavalry doesn't have good armour was totally OK concept for me. It's just the backstory of noble sons, combined with the lack of protection. But it was a slight annoyance, I liked both 6th and 7th eds.  :-)

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« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 10:54:11 AM by Midaski »
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Offline Steve63

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2017, 11:41:04 AM »
I've always thought of Pistoliers as a sort of Reiter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiter or 16th-17th Century Cuirassiers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuirassier
The sons of the nobility, new blood with new weapons, shunning the ways of their fathers and finding new tactics.
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2017, 08:29:21 PM »
It's not the troop type and what it does in the game that's off, but the fluff about the pistolkorps being a proving ground for young nobles that then go on to become knights or officers. Knighthood and officerhood have well-established career tracks IRL, and going through being a pistolier would be a long detour.

If they actually were something like cuirassiers, proper heavy cavalry, a pistol-using alternative to knights, and a career track the nobles get into to stay in (rather than move on to knighthood or officerhood), that'd make more sense. Of course, there's still the issue that in a world without the proliferation of pike, pistol cavalry makes far less sense.
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2017, 11:16:53 PM »
It's not the troop type and what it does in the game that's off, but the fluff about the pistolkorps being a proving ground for young nobles that then go on to become knights or officers. Knighthood and officerhood have well-established career tracks IRL, and going through being a pistolier would be a long detour.

If they actually were something like cuirassiers, proper heavy cavalry, a pistol-using alternative to knights, and a career track the nobles get into to stay in (rather than move on to knighthood or officerhood), that'd make more sense. Of course, there's still the issue that in a world without the proliferation of pike, pistol cavalry makes far less sense.

I think the problem is from reading into GW army book fluff as being the absolute truth on matters rather than a partially correct explanation which is how Black Library/WHFRP 2 sources treated it. The Pistolkorps is indeed made up of pistoliers and drawn from the sons of nobility but is not the sole source of such regiments within the Empire, simply the most famous and the most written largely because it was part of the Imperial reunification under Magnus. Much how in the more well plotted out fluff the Reiksguard serves to bring important and promising young men into the service of the Counts of Reikland and instill a sense of cross provincial sense of brotherhood so does the Imperial Pistolkorps. Service isn't a requirement nor is advancement a  guarantee, more simply a good way, to put in more modern terms, to 'social network' with peers. In Riders of the Dead the Demi-lancer formation of Talabecland serve this role as they have a longer tradition than the Pistolkorps and service in the prestigious regiments is a good mark for later being asked to serve for the Electors personal guard Order of Knights. Lesser regiments are raised all the time for the bellicose but less wealthy or important gentry. Some of these are part time serving units in case of local war while others are the rakeish gentlemen of fortune types campaigning here and there while figuring not to live past 30.
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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2017, 06:16:03 AM »
That would make sense, it's an institution that's sub-optimal at doing what it's nominally supposed to do but that lives on because it has become the place to meet the right people, a social club that is a marker of class.
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Offline Baron von Klatz

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2017, 07:14:42 AM »
The book "The Empire at War" also sheds light on how vital they are as the eyes of an army as it's light cavalry.

Once the Hochland army lost them to a orc ambush it wasn't long before the whole army was destroyed by surprise attacks that ruined their ranged firepower advantage (3000 long-rifles among other handgunners and artillery).
Quote
Did they generalize that concept to all Order armies in Age of Sigmar? 

I was actually talking about the 8th edition allegiance listing of Order, Destruction and Neutral.

To answer that question though they actually changed it to specialized training with focuses on warrior/knight orders and arena training for most of the armies. Armies like the Overlords being a exception as they use crew promotion (I.e. recruits have basic/poor equipment and only getting better weaponry by proving themselves).
Quote
Archery is a skill-intensive way of fighting, and spearelfery a drill-intensive one (probably comparable to pikemen, as they've always fought in an extra rank compared to regular spear-users). Switching from one to the other would waste accumulated experience and leave you with a noob, 

To be fair they have a thousand years to perfect their training in multiple fields.

That's kind of a key point with warhammer elves and why they're such potent wizards and warriors:
Quote
 alnaryn calls upon a seemingly bottomless reserve of arcane knowledge gleaned from centuries of study and adventure. He has walked the endless paths of the white library of Gelnasis, studies at the feet of the riftlords of khys and mastered their rough magics. In shadowy shyish he learned bladework from the long-dead knights of thorn, who could slice a raindrop in six before it ever touched the ground.

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Offline Dirach

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 02:18:37 PM »
Just to clarify some facts. WFB1 Had fixed amy lists in the supplement forces of fantasy. The warhammer World was not shaped, so the "men of the West" list is closest to the empire list. WFB2 Published in 1984 introduced the warhammer world. It was not fleshed out, but you recognize some elements. The edition had a list for "old Worlders". Ravening horde published in 1987 for WFB2 had the first true Empire List with iconic units such as flagellants, Knight Panthers, cannons, Halberdiers and arquebuiers. It have art of  Landkneckt style warriors on page 2 and 3 but it doesn´t say that ths is Empire Warriors.

Offline Zygmund

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2017, 08:37:46 PM »
Thanks for the info!  :::cheers:::

If you have the time, by all means go deeper into the units and their background.  :-)

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The 1988 WHA book had two categories of elite knights,

+3 Shock Elite Temple Ritterbruden, the religious orders of knights, with:
- Order of the Fiery Heart (Sigmar)
- Templars of the White Wolf (Ulric)
- Templars of Myrmidia

+2 Shock Elite Hohensknechtes, the secular orders of knights, with:
- Imperial Guard
- High Helms
- Knights Panther
- Gryphon Legion (Kislevite origin)

The first, religious category essentially doubles up as Imperial Templars in the Ally Contingent part.

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Offline Konrad von Richtmark

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2017, 09:50:35 PM »
The book "The Empire at War" also sheds light on how vital they are as the eyes of an army as it's light cavalry.

Once the Hochland army lost them to a orc ambush it wasn't long before the whole army was destroyed by surprise attacks that ruined their ranged firepower advantage (3000 long-rifles among other handgunners and artillery).
Quote
Did they generalize that concept to all Order armies in Age of Sigmar?

I was actually talking about the 8th edition allegiance listing of Order, Destruction and Neutral.

To answer that question though they actually changed it to specialized training with focuses on warrior/knight orders and arena training for most of the armies. Armies like the Overlords being a exception as they use crew promotion (I.e. recruits have basic/poor equipment and only getting better weaponry by proving themselves).
Quote
Archery is a skill-intensive way of fighting, and spearelfery a drill-intensive one (probably comparable to pikemen, as they've always fought in an extra rank compared to regular spear-users). Switching from one to the other would waste accumulated experience and leave you with a noob,

To be fair they have a thousand years to perfect their training in multiple fields.

That's kind of a key point with warhammer elves and why they're such potent wizards and warriors:
Quote
alnaryn calls upon a seemingly bottomless reserve of arcane knowledge gleaned from centuries of study and adventure. He has walked the endless paths of the white library of Gelnasis, studies at the feet of the riftlords of khys and mastered their rough magics. In shadowy shyish he learned bladework from the long-dead knights of thorn, who could slice a raindrop in six before it ever touched the ground.

Ah, I didn't know that the Order/Destruction classification existed in 8e already. Frankly, 8e is largely a hole in my mind. I bought the 8e BRB and the Empire army book, but never played a game. Just couldn't muster the interest, seeing what they'd done to the Empire.

Given elven lifespans, they'd certainly be able to train for both proficiencies, but it'd still be a waste. They could have better troops for the same investment in training if citizens were divided into archers and spearelves from the start. If they would be dual-trained, it'd make more sense for them to make use of both, like the Lothern Seaguard does. Or be able to choose their armament before the battle, like (I think) 5e Pirazzo's Lost Legion did.
The only good thing about 7th ed heads is that they look particularly inbred and superstitious which is perfect for Stirlanders

Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2017, 09:59:52 PM »
This makes me think that it would have to be a very necessary war or battle to muster troops to fight. Seeing how easy they die, what a colossal waste of maybe a thousand year life. Each death is almost unthinkable especially if dieing against a mortal human army. No comparison in cost. Same for dwarves too I guess.
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Offline zak

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2017, 03:32:47 PM »
The 7th ed Pistoliers as younger sons of nobility never made sense to me. You don't learn cavalry charge by shooting at range, so they were not getting the practice they would later need. Also, why would the fathers/elders send their noble sons into battle wearing light armour and no barding? Do they want their sons to die? (the Pistolier figures clearly had heavy armour, which was the best at the time).

The idea of pistoliers being younger sons dates at least from 6th edition. One should never confuse game rules with actual history, but pistoliers being light cavalry with hit and run tactics, it does make at least some sense for them to sacrifice protection for mobility.

goes all the way back to 4th edition as well, that's when I started playing  :::cheers:::
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Offline patsy02

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2017, 05:15:37 PM »
Quote
In 7e, they're suddenly shooty and close combat averse caracole cavalry, which is arguably more German but a bit contextually implausible, considering how such cavalry tactics were historically a response to the proliferation of pike, something that isn't happening in the Old World among the armies that Empire forces are expected to fight against.
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Offline Dirach

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2017, 09:06:32 PM »
Thanks for the info!  :::cheers:::

If you have the time, by all means go deeper into the units and their background.  :-)

There is not much background. But there is some.

Templars: Most are devoted to Sigmar, Myrmidia or Ulric. This is fleshed out in WFB3 as you mentioned.

Kinght Panthers, High Helms and imperial guard all have their own entry. The High Helms are my favourite and they got Miniatures in published for WFB3. They are said to be not tht intelligent.

The list also include a unit of Halflings.

And we must not forget Warhammer fantasy roleplay. Much of the background in WFB3 is taken from the role playing game and they have the same creators. WFRP came in 1986. Some of the Careers the characters could have had the Landsknecht look such as the Bodyguard, Militiaman, Noble, Watchman and Artillerist. We don´t know if they are from the Empire, but it is likely. It also have the first detailed description of the Empire that I know of, mentioning the big cities, Altdorf, Middenheim and Nuln and also names of rivers such as the Reik and other features like gods.

Offline Deuce

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2017, 01:42:34 AM »
Thanks for the info!  :::cheers:::

If you have the time, by all means go deeper into the units and their background.  :-)

There is not much background. But there is some.

Templars: Most are devoted to Sigmar, Myrmidia or Ulric. This is fleshed out in WFB3 as you mentioned.

Kinght Panthers, High Helms and imperial guard all have their own entry. The High Helms are my favourite and they got Miniatures in published for WFB3. They are said to be not tht intelligent.

The list also include a unit of Halflings.Whether the knights of the Empire were religious or secular, and the distinction between templars and other orders, is something that seemed to cause headaches for a lot of people starting in about 6th edition. Even if the ruleswriters understood it they were terrible at conveying it.

Prior to 6th ed it wasn't so much of a problem, because the army lists provided specific Reiksguard/Blazing Sun/Panther order units (which were mostly identical in stats and equipment) rather than a generic "knightly order" - the latter allowed for more player creativity, but also a lot more confusion.

I suspect the High Helms were partially inspired by the historical "Potsdam Giant Guard" regiment. Frederick William I of Prussia had an obsession with tall soldiers and went to great lengths to recruit the tallest men possible for the regiment. Combat proficiency was entirely secondary, and many of them were (as sufferers from gigantism) afflicted with health problems and most likely unfit for combat. If I remember rightly it didn't see combat often, and performed poorly when it did. Frederick the Great, when he came along, didn't really have any time for the unit and it was allowed to fall into obscurity.

Quote
And we must not forget Warhammer fantasy roleplay. Much of the background in WFB3 is taken from the role playing game and they have the same creators. WFRP came in 1986. Some of the Careers the characters could have had the Landsknecht look such as the Bodyguard, Militiaman, Noble, Watchman and Artillerist. We don´t know if they are from the Empire, but it is likely. It also have the first detailed description of the Empire that I know of, mentioning the big cities, Altdorf, Middenheim and Nuln and also names of rivers such as the Reik and other features like gods.
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Offline Alexis

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2017, 05:48:43 PM »
Last reply on this was 31st May, so I hope this isn't threadomancy, but it fits in well with my question so I didn't want to make a whole new post.


Concerning the look on the average Empire soldier, roughly since 4th Ed, (slashes and vivid colours, hats with feathered plumes, i.e the Landsknecht look). When I look for examples of real life inspiration from the HRE, I get that this was the fashion, usually for the wealthy and growing city living class. Would this also be said to represent the appearance of the bog trotting peasant of 16th century central Europe or the class of people who made up the bulk of an army? (The non-mercenary contingents)

Basically, are the models mostly intended to represent Reikland, Marienburg, Nuln etc and their fashionable opulence as opposed to the poorer eastern and northern states who would have more rural fashion?
"Dressing a bear in fine silks does not make it civilised, though in the city of Kislev it could pass at court."

Offline Zygmund

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2017, 06:04:55 PM »
The peasants would likely not have this kind of extravagant clothing. So less colourful and less slashed.

There has been some debate whether the Landsknechts pictured in period art show ordinary rank & file troopers, or the more flashy doppelsöldner (double pay, not necessarily greatswords) and company command groups. But the art is really consistent about the Landsknecht look. You can easily tell it apart from e.g. French, English and Nordic soldiers/mercenaries. It seems the Landsknecht mercenary companies really followed this style also outside Germany & Italy.

Then again there is clear evidence that when finer coloured woolens were entering mass production (in Flanders and Italy, later in England, Holland etc.), even ordinary peasants sought to obtain them. So from the 13th century onward. Similarly, I've studied late medieval/early medieval trade, and the amount of coloured cloth on the move is big. There are notions of how even ordinary Finnish peasants had trousers with a red inlay, so likely something like the Landsknecht style, allowing the red to be seen through the black/grey surface cloth. Such pieces of clothing were expensive for the peasants, but if you had the money & the will, you could get them even in the very north.

Note that many cities passed sumptuary laws. This means that extravagant colourful clothing, hats and jewels were only allowed for members of the higher classes. Such laws are an indirect proof that ordinary citizens could possess and had bought such clothing.

Feathers were there, even for the lowly peasants. (Like Robin Hood earlier.) Everybody had chickens and geese, and colours could be homemade from ordinary ingredients. ;) But not the biggest and most colourful feathers. Maybe if you compare the feathered head in the Mordheim/Militia sprue with the feathers in the State Troop & Greatsword sprues you can see the difference.

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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Emergence of the Landsknecht look for the Empire
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2017, 07:15:46 PM »
To add to Zygmund:
It is important to remember that the Landsknechte were mercenaries, had to provide for their own equipment. Slashed" clothing is actually supposed to have originated when soldiers cut pillaged luxury garments to size, but the Landsknecht look became a fashion trendsetter in overall civilian society. Given that combat was their livelihood, and they did not expect to grow too old, Landsknechte tended to spend all the money they earned when or rather if it came in, including on lavish clothing.
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