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Author Topic: 8th edition on route.  (Read 17367 times)

Offline Aldaris

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #450 on: July 15, 2017, 01:31:50 AM »
Throwing more ideas around - an assault section based around a Crassus carrier. M10, 20W, T8, 3+ save. Transports 35 models. Equipped with 4 heavy flamers that can shoot after advancing. 270 points.

Now, load that thing full of 9 Bullgryns, a Priest or two and Straken. A Hellhound or two to go with it. Maybe flank in Roughriders to benefit from all those bonus attacks as well. Guard CC carnage!

Straken 90
Ministrorum Priest 35
Ministrorum Priest 35
Bullgryns (9), 9x maul, 5x slabshield, 4x brute shield 378
Roughriders (10) 2x meltagun 120
Roughriders (10) 2x meltagun 120
Hellhound, heavy flamer 110
Hellhound, heavy flamer 110
Crassus armoured assault carrier, 4x heavy flamer, stormbolter 270

1268 points. Still leaves room for ample fire support. And those Bullgryns dish out 55 S7 AP-1 D2 attacks on the charge...
 :-D
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 01:39:58 AM by Aldaris »

Offline PhillyT

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #451 on: July 17, 2017, 05:49:05 AM »
Thats a pretty awesome list.  As with most things 8th edition, it will win or lose on whether the enemy can stop that carrier.  If they get first turn, you will probably lose.

I was thinking about that Valk/Vendetta list we discussed.  In hindsight I think it would be a strong list for sure.  I had forgotten they made those both T7.  Its crazy!

One of the only real issues I have with the game is that there is a real problem with going second in matched play.  Everything is so lethal that you will lose a lot.  I lost a game last night in part due to that.  It was The Relic, and the Tyranid/Chao team had 800 points in stuff in our deployment zone turn 1.  We were tied up there while a unit of termagaunts grabbed the Relic and ran it back to the far corner.  We just didn't have time to get over there and finish them by the time the game was up.
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #452 on: July 17, 2017, 06:15:28 AM »
That does indeed sound like a concern! I guess it's really important to have cheap, numerous screens out front to mitigate that as much as possible. Stuff that can scout sounds good as well - a couple scout sentinels out in front of your deployment zone each generate a huge circle around them that doesn't allow deepstrike or other alternative deployments within it. They won't last long, but as long as they fuck with a turn 1 alphastrike they'll have done their job...

Also, the win or lose of the above list also pretty much depends on those Bullgryns being able to get to something (or better yet, mutliple somethings) worth clobbering. If an opponent manages to keep feeding them cheap infantry squads, grots, or other chaff, they will have trouble pulling their weight. Which also reinforces the idea that having expendable stuff that can absorb the initial punch seems pretty important.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 06:20:05 AM by Aldaris »

Offline PhillyT

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #453 on: July 17, 2017, 06:40:07 AM »
Thats the biggest takeaway I have found, if the enemy has one "bomb" unit, you can take it out of the game even if you don't kill it.  Exceptions to this are fliers, who can often extract themselves when necessary.

Landraiders have a huge problem with this currently, since they can't fight their way out of melee and lose a round of shooting when they get stuck in it.  As you mentioned, spreading things out into more choices is looking like the meta of the day.
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Offline cisse

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #454 on: July 17, 2017, 06:41:12 AM »
One of the only real issues I have with the game is that there is a real problem with going second in matched play. 
In most of the games, really. Going first is really important in 80-90% of the matchups I'd say. Also, I understand the reasoning to make armies with fewer drops have an advantage but is it really necessary to make them go first automatically? Give them a +1 to the rolloff or something.

Cheap screens are 1 thing that might help but many armies might not have access to those... And in any case these won't work against long distance shooting.

Not sure what can be done about this... Perhaps an automatic +1 to armour saves the first player turn only (or something similar to aid survival rates a little bit) might do something about it? Just assume that it is always Night Fighting.  :wink:
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #455 on: July 17, 2017, 06:49:39 AM »
Also, I understand the reasoning to make armies with fewer drops have an advantage but is it really necessary to make them go first automatically? Give them a +1 to the rolloff or something.

This. A lot of TOs are doing this already I think.


Offline PhillyT

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #456 on: July 17, 2017, 07:40:16 AM »
For the first time in a long time I think GW will address this issue and not just let it fester.
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Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #457 on: July 18, 2017, 07:15:58 AM »
I am actually thinking of getting myself two Valhallan lascannons for a heavy support team. Or maybe field them in a command group each... Just two because that is fluffier for my WWII Soviet inspired army. Guns tend to come in 2 or 4 per battery or section, not uneven numbers.

And it is no real problem to have them in a team with another heavy weapon because you can splitt fire!

The third weapon can be a heavy bolter team that fluffwise is there for close in self-defence. I just wish them Heavy bolters looked like Maxims. But then, the autocannons looks like them sweet Dushkas.

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Offline PhillyT

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #458 on: July 18, 2017, 07:30:08 AM »
So as I look at my Dark Angel army, a couple things pop up and I think this extends to all armies as far as I can tell:

1.  You MUST be able to extend yourself early.  This will involve deepstrikers, assassins making a sudden appearance, teleportation (ork spell), warptiming a fast unit into the enemy deployment zone, trygon or mawloc tunneling, or Hive Commandering a genestealer unit into the enemy first turn.  Something to put real and dangerous pressure on the enemy.

2.  Minimal drops.  Best way to win currently is to go first.  Unfortunately.  I think making your opponent do their full deployment first would be the best way to mitigate this.

3.  Deny opportunity.  The all Deathwing deepstriker setup certainly helps to get around the going first issue...

4.  Bring a decent variety, but make sure you have plenty of BIG GUNS.  Lots of lascannons and the sort are a requirement now.
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #459 on: July 18, 2017, 07:40:07 AM »
As to the going first thing:

A unit you deploy into reserve is still a drop, keep that in mind.
You have to deploy half your units on the field, so no all reserves lists.
I would look at introducing the "finish deployment first - +1 to go first" rolloff as a standard house rule. much fairer.

Offline PhillyT

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #460 on: July 18, 2017, 07:54:06 AM »
Oh, I didn't see where you could only reserve half the army!  Thats big.

Do units in transports count as two drops?

I'll have to go back and look, I thought it said you needed units on the board by the end of the first battle turn or you lose.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 07:56:10 AM by PhillyT »
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Offline TexasYankee

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #461 on: July 18, 2017, 12:51:28 PM »
From the "missions" I've read, most of them allow a chance to steal the initiative on a 6 if you are last to deploy.

A unit you deploy into reserve is still a drop, keep that in mind.

Where does it say that? Please understand I'm not calling you out, just honestly want to know. For my Orks, I have a Deffkopter, Wartrakk and Kommandos I keep in reserve, and I bring them all out at the end of my first movement phase.

Oh, I didn't see where you could only reserve half the army!  Thats big.

That's only for matched play, I believe.

I'll have to go back and look, I thought it said you needed units on the board by the end of the first battle turn or you lose.

For all game play types, I thought it was at the end of any turn if you don't have any models on the table (for any reason; dead, reserves) it's a sudden death victory.
So, what would you guys do if some dude came at you with a belt that way?
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Offline Aldaris

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #462 on: July 18, 2017, 02:23:40 PM »
Where does it say that? Please understand I'm not calling you out, just honestly want to know. For my Orks, I have a Deffkopter, Wartrakk and Kommandos I keep in reserve, and I bring them all out at the end of my first movement phase.

That's fine! What I meant was keeping a unit in reserve is a deployment. Opponent: "I place down this tank". You: "Kommandos go into reserve." Opponent: "And now this unit of Marines." And you: "Wartrakk goes into reserve." Like that. You don't simply go "all those units are in reserve, let's start deployment."

And it says so in several places, actually. Pretty much any reserve ability starts with "during deployment, you can set up unit X in (high orbit, ambush, whatever)..." So you do set it up, just not on the table. You don't just ignore it during deployment.

Oh, I didn't see where you could only reserve half the army!  Thats big.
That's only for matched play, I believe.

Well yeah, you're right of course - but isn't that what 99% of games are?

and @Phil: Nope, units in transports count as one drop. Even if you have a unit of 5 and 7 characters in a Chimera.

Offline TexasYankee

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #463 on: July 18, 2017, 04:08:34 PM »

That's fine! What I meant was keeping a unit in reserve is a deployment. Opponent: "I place down this tank". You: "Kommandos go into reserve." Opponent: "And now this unit of Marines." And you: "Wartrakk goes into reserve." Like that. You don't simply go "all those units are in reserve, let's start deployment."

And it says so in several places, actually. Pretty much any reserve ability starts with "during deployment, you can set up unit X in (high orbit, ambush, whatever)..." So you do set it up, just not on the table. You don't just ignore it during deployment.


This makes sense to me; the caveat of "during deployment" seals it, however, I can see myself arguing this with several of my regular opponents. I want to go back and see if it reads "when you are finish deploying on the table" or just "the first to finish deploying."
So, what would you guys do if some dude came at you with a belt that way?
Make sure I've got the safeword memorised.

Offline PhillyT

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #464 on: July 19, 2017, 06:08:23 AM »
Certainly changes the way I am seeing armies built.  People were reserving everything they could to snatch first turn.
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Offline cisse

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #465 on: July 19, 2017, 06:57:41 AM »
They were? Odd. I thought it quite clear that you had to "set up" units in reserve one by one, and have never seen anyone do it otherwise.

On another note, for those interested: on the GW site there are some new teaser posts about the upcoming SM codex, in particular about chapter-specific rules and stratagems. Ineresting read. Ultramarins can fall back out of combat and shoot at -1BS, White Scars can fall back and charge again, Imperial Fists ignore cover bonus, and so on.
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Offline TexasYankee

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #466 on: July 19, 2017, 08:41:01 AM »
They were? Odd. I thought it quite clear that you had to "set up" units in reserve one by one, and have never seen anyone do it otherwise.

I am (or was) in the PhillyT camp. Everyone I knew was putting as much as they could in reserve to decrease the number of "drops" on the table. In fact, going over the rules last night, page 177, side bar, talks about "Reinforcements", and mentions when a unit "deploys" on the table it can no longer move, advance, whatever; leading to believe a unit does not "deploy" until it is on the table, which mean it wouldn't count for regular deployment when it came to counting drops to see who gets first turn. All semantics, I know, but surely this is something you can discuss with your opponent, or in a tournament setting, something the TOs will settle ahead of time. I can see GW putting a FAQ out about this.
So, what would you guys do if some dude came at you with a belt that way?
Make sure I've got the safeword memorised.

Offline FR1DAY

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #467 on: July 19, 2017, 12:50:56 PM »
I'm with cisse, I thought it was quite clear that all units count for deployment whether in reserve or not and that only half can be deployed in reserve. Must be a European thing.
There are 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack.

So why you complaining!

Offline Finlay

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #468 on: July 21, 2017, 03:37:06 AM »
important to take Philly's opinions with a grain of salt as he tends to take meta tuned power lists, and then mercilessly thrash his opponents with them. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but doesn't necesarily tarry with a more "normal" experience.

ie yes Riptide spam and Taudar were a problem in 7th.
That I literally never played against.

(especially when I only play at eurobashes!)
I don't care about the rules.

Pass the machete.

Offline PhillyT

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #469 on: July 21, 2017, 06:52:13 AM »
Hey,I haven't played anything that would count as a power list!  In every one of my games I've been trying something new.
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Offline Darknight

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #470 on: July 21, 2017, 03:56:58 PM »
New releases for tomorrow are on BoLS (and have been for a while - I just looked today). Your hopeful prediction was wrong, Philly - Codices look to be $50 apiece.

But the Primaris Dread is sweet . . .
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Offline Mathi Alfblut

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #471 on: July 21, 2017, 04:02:25 PM »
Damn.... That is no better than usual
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Offline FR1DAY

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #472 on: July 22, 2017, 05:26:24 AM »
The marine codex is 206 pages hardback. It's as big as the rule book. Also marine codex was more expensive than others in 7th. Hopefully others will be cheaper and or softback versions available soon. It's a money grab but why not. If you want it, pay for it, or wait. Like anything new
There are 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack.

So why you complaining!

Offline Aldaris

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #473 on: July 22, 2017, 06:17:55 AM »
On the same page as Adam here. Over 200 pages of hardback still doesn't make it cheap, but it's not outrageous either. Also, now that the game itself is in a much better state and I have the impression that GW actually cares and listens, I'm more willing to get invested. What really turned me off when I stopped playing and caring wasn't the prices, it was the feeling that GW wasn't giving a fuck, so why should I? That's the biggest positive change for me.

Offline Darknight

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Re: 8th edition on route.
« Reply #474 on: July 22, 2017, 06:20:07 AM »
Oh, I have no problem with the price - I was just remarking on the hopeful rumors they would be smaller and cheaper. But it looks VERY exciting - a pretty book with background? I'll have a basinful of that, by jove!
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