home

Poll

Should we allow Foot Knights OR Full Plate Swordsmen OR not?

Foot Knights
82 (52.9%)
Full Plate Swordsmen
23 (14.8%)
No infantry with Full Plate and Shield option
50 (32.3%)

Total Members Voted: 145

Author Topic: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen  (Read 34198 times)

Offline rufus sparkfire

  • The Old Ones
  • Members
  • Posts: 33360
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2009, 09:56:12 PM »
Full plate shouldn't combine with a shield anyway. It doesn't in WAB (and you get a 3+ save from it anyway). No shields at all, thanks!
Hey, I could still beat up a woman!
If I wanted to.

Offline Inarticulate

  • Members
  • Posts: 1599
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2009, 10:11:23 PM »
I shall reword it.

I would find Empire infantry with 2+ saves very silly.

Hell i think 1+ Knights is illy and 0+ Characters.
I for one welcome our new flying cat overlords.

Offline t12161991

  • Members
  • Posts: 3395
  • Let's Go Blue!
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2009, 10:26:12 PM »
-1+ characters?

If cannons didn't ignore armor saves, those with -1+'s would still get an armor save!  :eusa_wall:
Grutch:  Careful, someone I know on a forum I visit works for Sony.  He says they aren't to be trusted.

Hail! to the victors valiant
Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes
Hail! Hail! to Michigan
The leaders and best!

10-2

Offline Inarticulate

  • Members
  • Posts: 1599
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2009, 11:38:39 PM »
-1+ characters?

If cannons didn't ignore armor saves, those with -1+'s would still get an armor save!  :eusa_wall:

Upsie daisys.
I for one welcome our new flying cat overlords.

Offline Twiggle

  • Members
  • Posts: 39
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2009, 11:59:01 PM »
To me, foot knights don't have there place in the empire... brettonia, maybe. I think it would be to medieval.
-Twiggle: common name for goblin-slaves at the service of an orc

-To Twiggle : To tickle ones balls with the end of ones fingers

Offline Syn Ace

  • Members
  • Posts: 4750
  • Misinterpreting GW rules since 1991
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2009, 10:43:12 PM »
We used to have Reiksguard footknights. I used to run them every so often, but I think they only saved on 4+ (even though they were decked out in plate it only counted as heavy armor as there was no field plate rule back then and no extra +1 for hand weapon shield ). I could be misremembering it, but I think they might have had a lower movement rate--which would be one way of creating a drawback. Or could also drop their initiative by 1 to represent them plodding around in full plate (which while having great weight distribution still would still get bloody hot and tire the wearer--reference the French loss at Agincourt when they dismounted and marched across muddy land and then had to fight).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:45:51 PM by [SYN] Ace »
Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounding yourself with assholes.

— Popularly but incorrectly attributed to William Gibson

Offline t12161991

  • Members
  • Posts: 3395
  • Let's Go Blue!
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2009, 12:15:53 AM »
Need I mention the arrows at Agincourt?
Grutch:  Careful, someone I know on a forum I visit works for Sony.  He says they aren't to be trusted.

Hail! to the victors valiant
Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes
Hail! Hail! to Michigan
The leaders and best!

10-2

Offline Obi

  • Members
  • Posts: 6225
  • Rest in peace Nate
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2009, 03:23:17 AM »
Need I mention the arrows at Agincourt?
Well, you already did.....

But still, point taken. They got raped there.
Hello Athiuen and welcome to the Back Table.

caveat lector
I killed a duck with a spear, can't read train timetables though
"To be is to do"-Socrates;
"To do is to be"-Sartre;
"Do Be Do Be Do"-Sinatra

Offline t12161991

  • Members
  • Posts: 3395
  • Let's Go Blue!
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2009, 08:55:25 PM »
More that it wasn't the weight of their armor that was the major cause for the English victory.

Foot Knights... I can kind of see, but I think they're more suited to Brettonnia.
Grutch:  Careful, someone I know on a forum I visit works for Sony.  He says they aren't to be trusted.

Hail! to the victors valiant
Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes
Hail! Hail! to Michigan
The leaders and best!

10-2

Offline Victor

  • Members
  • Posts: 1477
  • ✠ Sol Invictus ✠
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2009, 08:06:08 PM »
I wan't my unmounted Reiksguard Knights back. Everyone who is against that, please line up so I can slap you with a fish.  :dry:

Offline Wolfsgaum

  • Members
  • Posts: 365
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2009, 08:21:55 PM »
More that it wasn't the weight of their armor that was the major cause for the English victory.

Foot Knights... I can kind of see, but I think they're more suited to Brettonnia.

The armor was pretty good protection from the arrows actually. I wish I could find the source for the estimated arrow shot/per actual fatality ratio I read once. It was an eye opener. It was estimated that something like 1000 arrows had to be shot in order to kill one French knight at Agincourt. It was like shooting fish in a barrel though. The French were densly packed and a slow moving target.

Offline Ebola

  • Members
  • Posts: 53
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2009, 12:34:02 AM »
Yes - The Reiksguard Knights of 5th Edition had a movement speed of 3 and only a save of 4+.  4WS skill if I remember correctly.

I'll need to dig out my old army book for a looksee.  I still have 33 of these models at home.  Hero Hammer game play at the time was not nice for them...

The main aspect that I found difficult to contend with this unit was their movement speed and charging range.

Cheers,
Ebola

Offline t12161991

  • Members
  • Posts: 3395
  • Let's Go Blue!
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2009, 01:30:49 AM »
More that it wasn't the weight of their armor that was the major cause for the English victory.

Foot Knights... I can kind of see, but I think they're more suited to Brettonnia.

The armor was pretty good protection from the arrows actually. I wish I could find the source for the estimated arrow shot/per actual fatality ratio I read once. It was an eye opener. It was estimated that something like 1000 arrows had to be shot in order to kill one French knight at Agincourt. It was like shooting fish in a barrel though. The French were densly packed and a slow moving target.

Who cares? Even if it was 1,000:1 (I'd think it'd be more like 100:1 if not lower) they were shooting something like 24,000 arrows per minute. IIRC (4,000 bowmen, 6 arrows/minute)
Grutch:  Careful, someone I know on a forum I visit works for Sony.  He says they aren't to be trusted.

Hail! to the victors valiant
Hail! to the conqu'ring heroes
Hail! Hail! to Michigan
The leaders and best!

10-2

Offline Wolfsgaum

  • Members
  • Posts: 365
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2009, 03:42:41 AM »
More that it wasn't the weight of their armor that was the major cause for the English victory.

Foot Knights... I can kind of see, but I think they're more suited to Brettonnia.

The armor was pretty good protection from the arrows actually. I wish I could find the source for the estimated arrow shot/per actual fatality ratio I read once. It was an eye opener. It was estimated that something like 1000 arrows had to be shot in order to kill one French knight at Agincourt. It was like shooting fish in a barrel though. The French were densly packed and a slow moving target.

Who cares? Even if it was 1,000:1 (I'd think it'd be more like 100:1 if not lower) they were shooting something like 24,000 arrows per minute. IIRC (4,000 bowmen, 6 arrows/minute)

That's exactly my point. Though arrows weren't the only cause of death for the knights. It isn't really known how many of those knights died directly from the arrows.

Offline Forsaken

  • Members
  • Posts: 37
  • Long Live the Flagellants
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #39 on: July 12, 2009, 04:29:40 AM »
 :ph34r:

It might sound a bit strange but what about bring back the old Reiksguard on foot, swordsmen with full plate? then I also had an Idea for army specific regiments of renown. Basically specific regiments for certain armies like special characters. Empire could do the old dogs of war Tileans or Wood elves could bring back regiments like Skarloc's scouts or Oren's bowmen and so on. Each race has regiments like this if one goes back far enough.  this 1 think could help prevent some of the cheese with earlier dogs of war in army list.

Offline Inarticulate

  • Members
  • Posts: 1599
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #40 on: July 12, 2009, 11:27:11 AM »
There are several threads about foot knight/fp swordsmen aroundm basically the forum is split between them being good or bad.

I for one welcome our new flying cat overlords.

Offline Uryens de Crux

  • Members
  • Posts: 3751
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2009, 11:37:05 AM »
More that it wasn't the weight of their armor that was the major cause for the English victory.

Foot Knights... I can kind of see, but I think they're more suited to Brettonnia.

The armor was pretty good protection from the arrows actually. I wish I could find the source for the estimated arrow shot/per actual fatality ratio I read once. It was an eye opener. It was estimated that something like 1000 arrows had to be shot in order to kill one French knight at Agincourt. It was like shooting fish in a barrel though. The French were densly packed and a slow moving target.

Who cares? Even if it was 1,000:1 (I'd think it'd be more like 100:1 if not lower) they were shooting something like 24,000 arrows per minute. IIRC (4,000 bowmen, 6 arrows/minute)

More like 50-60000 arrows a minute, an english archer, had by law, to be able to fire 12 aimed shots a minute, veteran archers could do much more and some numbers put the english at about 6000 archers.

Besides, it was the melee that did for them, funelled the knights into a block down lanes of stakes, into dismounted men at arms then the lightly armoured archers mauled them from the flanks.

Anyway this is interesting but O/T a bit.

Back ot. I'd make GS core troops and put in Foot Knights as specials/rares.
We go to gain a little patch of ground that hath in it no profit but the name.
The Free Company of Solland

The Barony of Wusterburg

Offline der Hurenwiebel

  • Members
  • Posts: 1078
  • Adversus Malum Pugnamus
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2009, 06:26:56 PM »
Yeah, the empire should be all about the options in an army composition.  If you don't want dismounted knights don't take them, if you do do.  Dismounted knights should be able to take weapon and shield or pollaxes, since greatswords are covered elsewhere this would cover the chivalrous weapons of the time. 

Make the change in their troop choice profile -X points to dismount, weapon and shield or pollaxe =free, ic still an option.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Empireguard

  • Members
  • Posts: 146
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2009, 11:13:54 PM »
I voted Food knights but I think they have to be rare and I’ll give you the reasons.

1.   We need another Rare that isn’t gunpowder/steam based
2.   There are a few mentions in the fluff of knight fighting on food in the direst of situations However it also says that this type of event is very “rare”. This is because it is almost on insult to a knight to be forced to fight on foot.
3.   This will limit how many can be used in a battle.

Anyway that’s my 2c
Please help create a comprehensive data base of every Wargaming model ever made by clicking here.

Offline Ken Wuyts

  • Members
  • Posts: 87
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #44 on: August 03, 2009, 08:24:40 AM »
No foot knights for me.
Say swordsmen with the option for heavy armour upgrade, that would do it.
WS4, 3+ save in CC, and nice conversion possibilities.
Those new greatsword models are not actually wearing full plate are they? So let's convert them into heavy armoured swordsmen and just keep fielding the metal ones as the real stuff :icon_biggrin:

Offline Hurin Thalion

  • Members
  • Posts: 67
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2009, 06:17:18 PM »
I voted Food knights but I think they have to be rare and I’ll give you the reasons.

Mmm... delicious, delicious roasted knight.
Out of Doubt, Out of Dark
to the Day's Rising I Came
Singing in the Sun, Sword Unsheathing

Offline der Hurenwiebel

  • Members
  • Posts: 1078
  • Adversus Malum Pugnamus
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2009, 01:56:31 AM »
The Germanies didn't have the same fussiness about dismounting as the French and Spanish, they were far more pragmatic about it, rather more like the English or the HYW or WoR.  Hells bells the Emperor Maximilian himself dismounted and carried a pike in a landesknecht unit, as well, he himself fought with a halberd or pollaxe (details are fuzzy, weapon distinctions too). 

All about the options here.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline Derek Contyre

  • Members
  • Posts: 1751
  • Duke of Nueremburg
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2009, 02:13:37 AM »
Quote
More like 50-60000 arrows a minute, an english archer, had by law, to be able to fire 12 aimed shots a minute, veteran archers could do much more and some numbers put the english at about 6000 archers.

Besides, it was the melee that did for them, funelled the knights into a block down lanes of stakes, into dismounted men at arms then the lightly armoured archers mauled them from the flanks.

THANKYOU URYENS!!!!

Someone finally says something real.
At agincourt the english numbered six thousand men, 4000 longbowmen 2000 dismounted knights and swordsmen in armour.
The French attacked over a field that had been turned to mud by the rain, a forest was on one side which anchored the english flank while a fence or series of fences held the other.

The french charged ten or so times acoss the field.
A fully trained english Longbowmen with an 80-100 pound bow at full draw can shoot 12 arrows per minute, the arrows themselves had bodkins, a needle point designed to puncture armour.
I think it was 60,000 arrows per minute and five hundred thousand arrows in like ten minutes.
 I practise archery with the english longbow and have a doco on agincourt which supports my facts.
What they found was the french charge would falter as they closed from sheer shooting power, their knights would tire in the mud and the english dismounted knights, armed with poleaxes and sword and shields would cut them to ribbons.
Poleaxes are almost a spear halberd/hammer.


Maybe base cost 12-13pts. M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 LD8
full plate hand weapon. shield +2pts and polaxe+1pt
option for inner circle same.
A poleaxe counts as a halberd+1S but the unit can fight in two ranks. 1st rank is strength+1 second rank is base S.

This is also supported by historical facts, english knights, fighting on foot wielding Poleaxes against french knights. The french would charge and the english would thrust their poleaxes into the horses. The horses would stop and the english would hook the polaxe around the french man's neck and rip him off his horse.
A man who builds his army around his fluff . . . respect . . .  :::cheers:::

Offline der Hurenwiebel

  • Members
  • Posts: 1078
  • Adversus Malum Pugnamus
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2009, 05:43:09 AM »
there are subtle distinctions between what a pollaxe and a halberd are. but basically since both of them are multiple stiking surface polearms the clearest distinction to be made is that a pollaxe has a shorter haft and is generally more sturdily built.  Both weapons generally will have a point combined with a striking surface and generally a raven's bill shaped hook.  A pollaxe sometimes will have also a reverse side point as well as the spear point and sometimes will replace the axe blade or hook with a warhammer. 

Because the pollaxe is shorter it generally is a bit more handy for closer combat as the shorter haft will not be as liable to hang up on friends and enemies and indeed can also be used as a grappling assist.  This short handiness also contributes to the pollaxes fight time it can respond to or generate a new threat easily as fast as a hand and a half or single handed weapon, and due to it's range advantage can threaten either of these from well outside their ranges while still being dangerous while standing on one's opponent's toes.  Either one can generate a tremendous amount of force, arguably more than a two handed sword, due to the weapon physics, this is the relationship between the centers of mass, balance and harmonic flexibility.  In other words how close is the "sweet spot" to the center of mass. 

The pollaxe is something I know a bit about as I have been fighting with one for about the past 10 years the top of the weapon too is remarkably good as a blocker as you can entangle and disentangle an opponents seemingly at will with a tremendous amount of leverage on your side. 

What should this mean in game terms?

Well a pollaxe should act on initiative, it should have increased strength enough basically to ignore all but the very best armour.  As it's blows are percussive in nature as well as chopping or puncturing armour ought not really to be a defence against this, or a halberd, since percussion can break a bone with the shock wave through armour as well as cause contre coup concussions severe enough to kill, again without puncturing or severely deforming a helmet. 

We did some force meter readings with a real one, against a helmet and against an arm weighted target inside padding and steel.

but what exactly IS the armour save in warhammer, or toughness or a ward save.

I think I'm happy enough with this having a +1 to strength and AP of +1 or +2 attacking on initiative. 

In my opinion though, no man made weapons would be made in such a way that a warrior would have to sacrifice his initiative.  Those that did, would not survive the first battlefield encounter and be filed as a failed experiment, just ask those dead guys over there for confirmation.   I mean really, a warhammer model pays nearly the cost of a base human (3 points) for +2S, the penalty of automatically going last I think is too high generally.  I might be haggled into an initiative penalty -1 to ini but even that seems unrealistic and more importantly irrational to me. 

This is speaking a bit to the concept of fight initiative, in my opinion initiative is something which should be fought for and which you can win.  Racial initiative how quick you are generally, movement initiative what have you done to gain initiative before going into a combat, then Fight initiative what hacve you succesfully done in a combat to maintain initiative or done badly to lose it.  Charging should be +2 ini, charging a flank another +1 a rear +2, cause fear +1, cause terror +2, stupid -2, cold blooded -1 and so on.  In the fight itself wound counts balance each other out +- ini to the winner/loser, won combat last round+2 ini, fear and terror still count in combat as would flanks and rear, and outnumbering+1 for simple outnumbering +2 for doubling your opponent's #'s.  It's a slightly different take on combat resolution, which can be calculated simultaneously to standard break test combat rez or incorporated into it.  I think that this is more rational as it is possible that well played goblins can get the jump on overcocky elves, besides that this relies on well thought out strategy on the parts of the players as opposed to just dumb luck of the dice.

Terror causing, stupid coldone riders would for example have no effect on initiative but they might still make you think twice about fighting them in the first place.
"DEfighter wrote:
Hey, trolls stay the hell out, this is a serious thread. Empire are cheese. 2 steam tanks, a war altar and 4 cannons is so obviously overpowered. Anyone who thinks otherwise clearly hasn't had their dragon shot down on turn 1 yet."

oh really now.  LOL ROFLMAO oh the irony.

Offline warhammerlord_soth

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 10468
  • Eurobash : Ascension weekend. Be there !
Re: POLL - Foot Knights / Full Plate swordsmen
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2009, 08:55:12 AM »
I would give regular knights the dismount option for 2 extra points.
 
Sure you can field them dismounted, but only the (us) fluff nuts ever will....
Have one  on Midaski's tab.  :::cheers:::
Famous last words. R.I.P.