Topic: Renegade armylist update

[Warlord]

SBO have issued an update to legacy army lists.

www.squarebased.com

Thoughts?

[Footpatrol2]

I like it. It's conservative changes which I like.

 I play ogres as well. It's nice leadbelchers are not horrible now and a tough choice. Good shooting unit in a Close combat army.

[Warlord]

I only really play 2 of these armies...

I am a fan of the change to the Chaos Dwarf balance changes.
Requiring the Bull Centaur hero to take Bull Centaurs was a horrible proposition, and this fixes it.

I also like the changes to Vampire Counts - all common sense updates.

That said, not a fan of the Ward Save change to Demons.
Its not as though I play with or against Demons, however I have always been of the belief that all ward saves should be contingent on non-magic attacks, and if you have magical attacks, you no longer have a ward save. That is just a design / aesthetic philosophy I feel makes sense to me.

[commandant]

The demon change alters completely what demons are. Maybe from a balance point of view something was needed but from a gameplay POV this is bad.

[Footpatrol2]

I played demons in 8th. The always 5+ ward save is annoying but not unbeatable. Previously demons were just hard countered via armies that could bring mass magical attacks. Which is a little unfair. In addition falcon horn really destroys certain demon lists. They are in a tough spot.

[commandant]

To be fair I'm a bad person to ask as I think demons shouldn't be their own army as well.

[Warlord]

Previously demons were just hard countered via armies that could bring mass magical attacks. Which is a little unfair.

IMO that’s thematic.
But again, this change just reinforces how ineffective our Witch Hunter is in its current iteration.

The changes to Demons and Skaven around removing choices locked to characters is a good one to make them more viable.

[commandant]

Previously demons were just hard countered via armies that could bring mass magical attacks. Which is a little unfair.

The changes to Demons and Skaven around removing choices locked to characters is a good one to make them more viable.

I must say I disagree with this.  I think units locked to characters is an interesting idea and makes a lot of sense in the lore.

Units need somebody to muster them and if they are special in some way (like knights of the white wolf) they are not going to muster for anyone.   It seems reasonable that the knights of the white wolf should require a chapter master or grand master

[Warlord]

Then characters need to be a LOT cheaper and less game breaking for that to be feasible IMO.
Honestly, I do kinda miss the Lord and Hero level restrictions in some ways. Rather than a blanket 50% characters, maybe 20% / 30% for Lord / Hero could bring some of that flavour back.

[commandant]

It would be better I agree if warhammer went back to the 6th ed system of 1 lord plus 3 heros per 2000 points and (if I remember correctly) 3 special and 2 rare slots.

I do think it would be interesting if you could only take core units and then characters would open special and rare choices. This would incentivise taking hero characters.

[Warlord]

A much simpler time without 2 dragons possible in a list.
It was 4 special choices, not 3. 3 was core. There were some choices, mostly bolt throwers, that allowed 2 for 1 in a slot.

[commandant]

It also meant that if you took a level 4 you sacrificed a combat lord/leadership lord.

Given TOW's magic system that would be even more interesting

[Qrab]

GW have struggled with the rules for Daemons for decades now.

In 6th edition, daemons we’re the red-headed step child of WFB because their ward save was negated by magical attacks, they couldn’t use the army standard bearer re-roll failed instability checks, and the entire unit disappeared if you rolled over it’s unmodified leadership. As a result, you never saw them outside of a gimmick list until the Storm of Chaos book gave them both a true ward save and the ability to re-roll instability checks. Units would still disappear if you rolled over their leadership on an instability check and internal restrictions meant you were generally locked into building mono-god lists, but at least you could field a competitive army. At the time I fielded a Nurgle army and it was strong, but not unbeatable.

In 7th edition, daemons were the apex predator of WFB because in addition to the true ward and instability re-roll, GW removed the internal restrictions on army building which allowed people to min/max the best units regardless of which ruinous power they were associated with. Coupled with some really good daemonic gifts, daemons regularly won tournaments. At the time I fielded an army with one each herald & core unit from each power & a couple of special choices. It was not an optimized army, but it still did rather well.

I only played one or two games of 8th edition, so don’t have any first hand experience with how daemons played  at the time, but I gather they were pretty strong (but not as strong as during 7th edition).

With the Old World, being as they’re a legacy faction, I haven’t played any games with my daemons because I’ve returned to my first love - the Empire. With that said, having read GW’s legacy PDF, I had no issues with the army building restrictions, but the one rule that immediately stood out was the reversion of the daemonic save to being negated by magic. That is bad because daemons are expensive and most do not have an armor save. With that said, being able to field an entire army with a full-time 5+ ward save probably isn’t that great for the game, either. Had I been involved in the development of the Renegade Pack, I would have suggested making it so magical attacks reduced the ward save to a 6+ instead of negating it completely. Obviously, people need to get some games in with the Renegade Pack rules before we’ll know for sure.

[commandant]

Also there is a question as to how common magic attacks are?

With that said, being able to field an entire army with a full-time 5+ ward save probably isn’t that great for the game, either. Had I been involved in the development of the Renegade Pack, I would have suggested making it so magical attacks reduced the ward save to a 6+ instead of negating it completely.

Unless you are Bertonnian


Mostly I think people should not consider changing the rules but rather consider changing the victory conditions.   

For example if you played a tourney where there were 3 objectives on the battlefield and they could only be claimed by infantry units with a unit strength of 15 or more and player with the most captured objectives won the game with it being a draw if the number of captured objectives were the same.  This would drastically change what units were good.   

[Warlord]

Not really. It would just change the tactics of trying to hide or kill infantry units.

I think Demons should get some scaly skin armour saves in addition to non-magical attacks ward saves. Dependant on troop of course. Thinking mainly Khorne gets scaly skin. Nurgle should get higher toughness and -1 to hit. Slaanesh should get speed to attack first, or higher WS. And Tzeentch can get the actual proper ward save because they are so magical?

Broad 5+WS is too powerful IMO included with the min/max options.

[commandant]

Not really. It would just change the tactics of trying to hide or kill infantry units.

Indeed.

If you stated that the closest unit to the objective claimed the objective and it was only contested if two units were within 12 inches of it then lists that only took 1 infantry unit would have a terrible time competing with lists that took 3- 4.

Dragons etc would become much less powerful by virtue of the fact they can't claim objectives and destroying all your opponent's infantry doesn't win you the game unless you have infantry of your own.   It just gets you a draw.

[Dazgrim]

GW have struggled with the rules for Daemons for decades now.

In 6th edition, daemons we’re the red-headed step child of WFB because their ward save was negated by magical attacks, they couldn’t use the army standard bearer re-roll failed instability checks, and the entire unit disappeared if you rolled over it’s unmodified leadership. As a result, you never saw them outside of a gimmick list until the Storm of Chaos book gave them both a true ward save and the ability to re-roll instability checks. Units would still disappear if you rolled over their leadership on an instability check and internal restrictions meant you were generally locked into building mono-god lists, but at least you could field a competitive army. At the time I fielded a Nurgle army and it was strong, but not unbeatable.

In 7th edition, daemons were the apex predator of WFB because in addition to the true ward and instability re-roll, GW removed the internal restrictions on army building which allowed people to min/max the best units regardless of which ruinous power they were associated with. Coupled with some really good daemonic gifts, daemons regularly won tournaments. At the time I fielded an army with one each herald & core unit from each power & a couple of special choices. It was not an optimized army, but it still did rather well.

I only played one or two games of 8th edition, so don’t have any first hand experience with how daemons played  at the time, but I gather they were pretty strong (but not as strong as during 7th edition).

With the Old World, being as they’re a legacy faction, I haven’t played any games with my daemons because I’ve returned to my first love - the Empire. With that said, having read GW’s legacy PDF, I had no issues with the army building restrictions, but the one rule that immediately stood out was the reversion of the daemonic save to being negated by magic. That is bad because daemons are expensive and most do not have an armor save. With that said, being able to field an entire army with a full-time 5+ ward save probably isn’t that great for the game, either. Had I been involved in the development of the Renegade Pack, I would have suggested making it so magical attacks reduced the ward save to a 6+ instead of negating it completely. Obviously, people need to get some games in with the Renegade Pack rules before we’ll know for sure.

What I don't understand is why the original pack writers and the guys at Squared Based didn't make the ward save a 6+ and give them regeneration 6+ as an army wide rule.
As part of being a daemon they have warp-touched so the regeneration is negated by magic, meaning they're weaker to magic, but not complete pushovers.