Topic: Inner Circle Knights

[ChaosReigns]

I bought an Empire army ages ago when I was still playing 8th edition, having played Bretonnia as my main army for quite a while already by that point. One of the cool things about Empire was the massed access to 1+ saves with knights.

Of course, this is no longer a reality with the Empire’s knights in Core.

At 2,000 points it’s possible to take two units of Inner Circle that still have 2+ armour saves (which is now effectively the 1+ equivalent). Has anyone had success with big units of Inner Circle? What do you guys find are the best ways to run them?

I know people are going to say ‘Demigryph Knights’ and while they are definitely the most effective Special choice, surely the Inner Circle can be made viable even if it’s not optimal?

[Footpatrol2]

I've only used 6 man or 5 man ICK units with fcmd. I've played two Bret players and both games they went against Pegasus knights and they mopped the floor with them. Maybe I got lucky. Pretty sure if I used core knights they would have folded.


 I think ICK are very good, I prefer DGK thou for the sustain DMG output.

[Minsc]

I know people are going to say ‘Demigryph Knights’ and while they are definitely the most effective Special choice, surely the Inner Circle can be made viable even if it’s not optimal?

Thats the main drawback of IC-knights; DGK's generally do what they do but better.

With that said, IC-knights have some benefits:
- DGKs can only be joined by characters on a Demigryph (thanks to clumsy), but IC-knights can be joined by characters on regular horses, which means you can attach Priests and Witch Hunters for their buffs. Especially the Priests of Ulric have some decent prayers for them (+D3 charge/MW(2))
- Special rules that are exclusive to IC Knights over DGKs: Veteran is nice, Inner Circle prevents rubber-lance-syndrome somewhat, but most importantly Drilled post FAQ: Put them in marching column, move 21" up the board, and then redress the ranks and charge next turn.

They also have Ld9 for some reason, which will be kinda moot if you have a General/Grand Master nearby, but you know... still. 

[Sir Falo]

I run IC over Demigryphs. I have run two IC of 6 and that works fine.

What makes me take IC over Demigryphs is that they can act way more independent than Demigryphs and that they are way faster. LD9 veterans makes it so you dont need a Grand master as a baby sitter.  Demigryphs are 3 wounds away from a ld8 panic test, and with people are taking more multiple wounds attacks, you are going to roll panic. IC are basicly one of two/three regiments you have that are not dependent on your characters Ld support.

That gives me way more options of what characters that you can take. Witch hunters, chapter master or captain on pegasus, horse or demigryphs can work along IC (the only way to use Witch hunter in my opinion). Ulric priest are ok with them. I however I like the captain on Griffon. He is a great support for two 6 man IC regiments. Not too expensive, can charge things behind the enemy lines (like support wizards or the like) and terror is great support for you knights charge, they remove ranks and is close order. All for 190 pts.

IC also have rules that makes them good in their own right. Drilled is an amazing rule. 21" march and just having a 2 man front makes them alot easier to move around and get good positions. If you are in a flank were you are hard counters, Drilled gives you the ability to change you flank.

Stubborn is a must have. If you knights fucks up a charge your plans are not just destroyed. You can use them as a sacrifice to a Dragon. And with Ld9. They can hold the line if you need them to.

A more funny build if to take Wizards hat on the IC champion. Ld9 reroll makes stupid not a thing and hammer hand works ok. Just keep away from the enemys lvl 4.

6 man are the best formation in my opinion. Works well with drilled.

An example for a cavalry formation I use:
616 Pts
Captain of the Empire [190 pts]
(Hand weapon, Lance, Full plate armour, Griffon, Charmed Shield)

6 Inner Circle Knights [213 pts]
(Hand weapons, Lances, Shields, Full plate armour, Stubborn, Inner Circle Preceptor (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

6 Inner Circle Knights [213 pts]
(Hand weapons, Lances, Shields, Full plate armour, Stubborn, Inner Circle Preceptor (champion), Standard bearer, Musician)

[Skyros]

They're good, but I don't know that they are 30 points a model good which is verging on grail knight territory, who are just way better.

I have some issues with them, namely, you kind of want core knights, and Inner Circle are not core. If you are taking all those points as cavalry special allowance, demigryphs seem to perform a little better.

Secondly, their rule is cool, but it's kind of anti-synergy with the warrior priest of sigmar. The rerolling 1's to wound is really good on lances in particular, but if you use that prayer, then you're losing out on the normal inner circle rule. That said priests of sigmar are not exactly great, so maybe not taking them is fine.

I'd like them a lot better if some general options let you take a unit as core.

[scoutmaster]

Sir Falo
Very interesting what you write about the knights of the inner circle. - I am coming to similar conclusions about their independence from commanders - however, I have a problem because what to take in basic units then?

[Zygmund]

I don't know if I just keep rolling bad for the armour saves, but I feel all my knights, IC included, have paper armour. Enemy shooting usually deals with them, or at least reduces their numbers so that they cannot accomplish what they've made for. Also they rarely can combo charge and rarely have twice the unit strength, so their charges result in FBIGO, which is usually very good for the opponent.

Maybe I play too much against Dwarfs. Against Orcs & Skaven my IC have won games.

This is one reason I consider - at last - painting a unit of DGK (bear riders). At least they stay effective even after losing two (or up to five) wounds.

-Zyg

[Sir Falo]

Sir Falo
Very interesting what you write about the knights of the inner circle. - I am coming to similar conclusions about their independence from commanders - however, I have a problem because what to take in basic units then?

Basic as in core? Well that depend on what you want for your army to be. I play fairly balanced armies, so If I have 2 IC knights in special I have 2 State troops with a archer screen as core. But nothing stops you from getting more knights as core or take a gunline with crossbows.

[Minsc]

A Grand Master not making up to 1 unit of Inner Circle Knights Core really was an opportunity that waved its big arse in the face of the ruleswriters and yet they still missed it...
(Extra annoying since Empire is one of few armies who have no "If Y, unit X may be taken as Core"-shenanigans in their Army Composition-rules.)

Still, while 30 ppm is a bit on the expensive side, they aren't that bad for heavy cav.
Off the top of my head, I'd probably take them over Black Knights and Cold One Riders any day of the week.
Them being Ld9 and Veteran as pointed out, allows them a modicum of independence on the battlefield.

[sedobren]

I don't know if I just keep rolling bad for the armour saves, but I feel all my knights, IC included, have paper armour. Enemy shooting usually deals with them, or at least reduces their numbers so that they cannot accomplish what they've made for. Also they rarely can combo charge and rarely have twice the unit strength, so their charges result in FBIGO, which is usually very good for the opponent.

Maybe I play too much against Dwarfs. Against Orcs & Skaven my IC have won games.

This is one reason I consider - at last - painting a unit of DGK (bear riders). At least they stay effective even after losing two (or up to five) wounds.

-Zyg

the fact is that a d6 has a pretty small range of results, so even with a 2+ armor save, a smallish unit of 5-6 is probably going to lose one, expensive, knight on average to simple bows. Units like that really leave a very tight room for maneuver and to absorb losses. Look at demigryphs in comparison, they are T4, have a 2+ still and 3 wounds. So for little over the cost of 2 inner circle knights you get almost 3 knights' worth of attacks and resilience, a better performance in prolonged fights, fear, the ability to shrug off random wounds from chaff (that would kill a knight thus costing you pts and reducing the unit's effectiveness. They are also better targets for enhancements (since they stay more on the table).

[Sir Falo]

the fact is that a d6 has a pretty small range of results, so even with a 2+ armor save, a smallish unit of 5-6 is probably going to lose one, expensive, knight on average to simple bows. Units like that really leave a very tight room for maneuver and to absorb losses. Look at demigryphs in comparison, they are T4, have a 2+ still and 3 wounds. So for little over the cost of 2 inner circle knights you get almost 3 knights' worth of attacks and resilience, a better performance in prolonged fights, fear, the ability to shrug off random wounds from chaff (that would kill a knight thus costing you pts and reducing the unit's effectiveness. They are also better targets for enhancements (since they stay more on the table).

Demigryphs are not as resilient as they look if the enemy knows what's he is doing. There is alot of multiple wounds out there that's way better vs demigryphs. And Ld 8 is not great for panic (thats quite easy to make them take) And IC knights have stubborn and Ld9 reroll. Demigryphs must be with a Grand master or close to a general. So you have to pay quite alot or limit their operational range. And for boost you are more limited in want you can take on them over IC. No multi wounds boost or joined by a wizard.

And when it comes to maneuvers IC is just way out better, they start with Drilled so you can move 2 wide with cav bases. And they can readdress ranks with a counter charge.

Demigryphs do hit harder however. So if you want damage they are great!