Topic: 40K

[rufus sparkfire]

My Vostroyan plasma squad arrived from ebay! They are awesome.

So now I have five veteran squads and two normal ones.

if you use special characters.  My group dont use them

That seems a bit unfair, since many army books are built around special characters unlocking certain types of list.

I don't want to use Inquisitor Cortez just to be able to have multiple units of henchmen, but book insists on it!

[Fandir Nightshade]

Blauer Nebel, don´t be that guy telling everyone he has the unbeatable list....nobody likes that guy and it always is...well not true.

It just results in childish, ha ha I can field this and this and that and smack your list on the arse like I always slap two ton sally.

I bet Philly could come up with an Orc list that would rape your IG infantry heavy list. TAU might be able to outshoot you the list goes on and on. So still my point would be IG is a very very strong list especially with all infantry but far from being undefeatable, the last european championship I remember a German guy fielding an IG leafblower list with gazillion of autocannons and several other hard armour piercing heavy weapons and rest filled up with grunts, failed. He got smashed. The games he did win his opponent ran away or hid the whole game in reserve to deny him points.

[Crimsonsphinx]

My Vostroyan plasma squad arrived from ebay! They are awesome.

So now I have five veteran squads and two normal ones.

if you use special characters.  My group dont use them

That seems a bit unfair, since many army books are built around special characters unlocking certain types of list.

I don't want to use Inquisitor Cortez just to be able to have multiple units of henchmen, but book insists on it!

You are quite right Rufus.  We have however never allowed special characters generally since 2nd edition 40k and 4th edition fantasy.  It is however becoming harder to keep the ban when it makes some armies unusable [deathwing/ravenwing come to mind].  The problem we have is we have people who are out and out power gamers who play with us.  They use special characters against each other.  Our agreement is that everyone is free to use special characters providing both players agree but I personally don't want to.  Seems utterly stupid to me that a special character rocks up with 50 blokes in a tiny skirmish.  Special chars really should be for specific scenarios or in epic scale only IMO.

I beleive you can buy a regular HQ [the equivalent to a chapter master] who allows you to get scoring units, so your henchmen could still score, without using a special character.

I have a plasma vet unit made from the forge world cadian vets.  They are quality models.   

[Blauer Nebel]

The colossus is a single large template, not two.

You said you had two Collosus..es(?). Collosi?

And I don't run that list anymore, Fan. Did it two games and it was enough. Both times it was vastly outgunning the enemy. Sure, can you design a list against it? Absolutely; you can design a list against ANY army. You could say, "Oh, IG. I'm taking all these anti-infantry". Then it's "Oh? Then I'm taking Templars with all LRCs." "Oh, then I'm taking anti-" and then it goes back and forth and you don't actually play because you keep meta-gaming to get an advantage. Six hours later and the store closes. But against all-comers lists, such a gunline has such flexibility and utility that I'm amazed people aren't using it more.

I don't know what the Euro scene is like or what the restrictions were, but anything in this area that list would crush - and when I've used it, did crush. It definitely has a psychological impact, too. Personally, I play my Space Marines like IG and my IG like Space Marines, which makes the lists more interesting for me to play. I simply brought this list up because with a competent commander behind it and average playing field, that list isn't losing without severely bad rolls. I'd go so far as to bet money on it.

Of course, the clincher is "competent commander" - a variable wildly influencing its success rate, naturally.

Also, Tau aren't outshooting Guard. If they are, Guard dropped the ball somewhere, probably during the list make-up.

Concerning the special character issue, if you don't like 'em, get ready to be left behind. Ten bucks says 40K 7th Edition has us using cards instead of Codexes and fielding a few characters and some meatshields like Warmachine. It's why I'm losing interest in 40K and picking up Fantasy more. I'm tired of having my HQs be the same as everyone else in my army. You can take this guy with almost the same stuff, but not quite, and his stuff isn't 1 or 2 AP less, nor does he have a neat army-wide special rule... Oh, and did I mention even with all that, the special character is still CHEAPER? Yeah, the power creep in 5th has been disheartening, and I don't see a way they're gonna' fix that without some HUGE errata in 6th to allow multiple armies having "doctrines" and some sort of agreement-only on special characters.

They're the future, and it's lookin' pretty bleak.

[rufus sparkfire]

The internet is so depressing!

I beleive you can buy a regular HQ [the equivalent to a chapter master] who allows you to get scoring units, so your henchmen could still score, without using a special character.

Well, yes, but:

- the grey knight grandmaster costs about 200 points (!), and is far more powergamey than Inquisitor Cortez (grenades of doom!).
- and also the librarian is even more powergametastic than the grandmaster.
- if I took a grandmaster, I could only have one henchmen unit anyway (you get one per inquisitor, unless you have Cortez).
- I want an inquisition army with grey knights in support, not a grey knights army. The only way to do that is to use Cortez, because they took out the old ally rules.
- the grey knights army list only has two units in the troops section! Two!

Therefore, Cortez is mandatory!

I'd be happy to not use him if someone agreed to let me use henchmen as troops anyway though...

[Fandir Nightshade]

Well...point is your list has even more potential and yes it was used that way already

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/09/40k-ard-boys-armylist-leafblower.html

Kind of could kill the 40k is so much more balanced and so much more about tactics than warhammer fantasy.

[Crimsonsphinx]

I only said colossus.  Which I probably spelled incorrectly, but I meant 1.  I do have a Medusa as well, but that seems less useful.

I don't understand how any list can realistically take on all comers with a better than average chance of winning.  It always seems to me that whatever list you design, you can always come across a list that will tear it to shreds. 

A gunline is incredibly boring to play as and against.  It is boring in fantasy, and it is boring in 40k.  If you don't outshoot the enemy you lose.  Great fun for everyone! 

I prefer my guard to have three sections rather than just sitting back shooting.  Foot infantry in the backfield, mechanised assault to capture/contest objectives and ranged support from tanks etc across the whole table.

Do I consider myself a competent commander?  I would say it depends.  I have more wins with Guard than Chaos and Eldar, but that could be due to the fact the Guard is a new book.  I wouldn't say I was drastically worse or better than most of my group, although I usually destroy our relative new player [only two years gaming experience vs my near seventeen].

I would expect a foot guard army to be ripped limb from limb by any number of dark eldar or tyranid armies.  I know this from experience.  Any army which can cross the table rapidly, with competent close combat troops will kill a guard foot army.  It just needs to make hand to hand combat.

I would also question if you have enough terrain on the table.  If you have very little, then a gunline guard list will be incredibly successful.

[Aldaris]

Correct. Foot guard certainly isn't bad, but it is vulnerable to a number of things - and it sucks at taking objectives, which doesn't make it very good at actually winning (as opposed to just shooting things up).

Besides, just to answer one of your examples - 2 squads of Guard "evaporating" a squad of assault termies with FRFSRF is highly unlikely. All those shots will on average drop one or two. 

[Fandir Nightshade]

Well they slice one squad of 10 guardsmen (or three or four) and have to endure another round of massive fire.

Problem with 40K is not that it is a gunline but it is THE gunline that pretty decently prevents shock troops (if you allow demonhunters old list) or reserves coming in with two fleet commanders.

It is also very flexible for killpoint missions or scoring units wise you can opt to use 50 strong units or 5 units of 10. It is a very hard list. And all commers wise it has good chances to win even with little skill.

[Aldaris]

Well they slice one squad of 10 guardsmen (or three or four) and have to endure another round of massive fire.

Right, which is why assault terminators are not very good vs. Guard - a few high strength attacks won't do much. I was not making any statement about their quality, merely about the shooting efficiency of lasguns against them (it takes about 36 shots to kill one trerminator on average).

Problem with 40K is not that it is a gunline but it is THE gunline that pretty decently prevents shock troops (if you allow demonhunters old list) or reserves coming in with two fleet commanders.

It is also very flexible for killpoint missions or scoring units wise you can opt to use 50 strong units or 5 units of 10. It is a very hard list. And all commers wise it has good chances to win even with little skill.

Sure it is a very hard list. But it's slow! In objective missions you will often draw or lose, as you have little means to be offensive. 2/3 of the time it will be an objective mission. And assault troops with lots of attacks / poison (Dark Eldar, some Nid builds) will still kick your ass - especially since those big blobs will all shoot the same target, usually massively overkilling it.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Well therefore the better all comers leaf blower list is much more thought out, I think almost everything in transports lots of special weapons and more tricky tricks.

I think the usual tournament size isn´t 2500 points either is it?

[Aldaris]

Nope, between 1500 and 2000 is the usual.

Besides, we are talking about foot guard, aren't we? I know how strong mech guard is, I play it myself.
 

[Crimsonsphinx]

Are you sure two Masters of the fleet penalties are cumulative?  I dont see anything to suggest they are!  I am fairly certain Astropaths bonuses are not.

I find putting soldiers in chimeras is a much more flexible way to play than to go all foot.  If the worst happens and you get assaulted, a chimera gains you an additional round of survivability, as they have to kill your armoured box first.

That Bell of Souls list is pretty evil.  However I beleive allies are now illegal, so I don't see how you could use the Inquisitor now?  It has quite a lot in common with my own theories of building a good guard list, except I build my lists somewhat softer.

Guard in my experience are terrible at KP missions.  I have so many units [cant join them together if they have chimera] that it is relatively easy for me to lose more units than the enemy has.  This is because I tend to have a lot of armour 12 units roaming the table [4-10] which can be brought down fairly sharpish if the enemy has enough heavy weapons.  While this rarely affects me in objective games, in KPs it cripples me.

Why do I build lists like this?  Simply because 2/3rds of the missions are objectives and transports help me win those missions.

Edit:  I dont beleive you can have inquisitors because the book they could be taken from is no longer current!  My own guard is Hybrid, half in transports, half on foot.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Are you sure you can´t join chimera squads together? I understood it that way that you can join but can´t use the chimeras as transports no more.

[Aldaris]

Edit:  I dont beleive you can have inquisitors because the book they could be taken from is no longer current!  My own guard is Hybrid, half in transports, half on foot.

Yep - both old Inquisition codices are outdated now, so no more Inquisition allies.

And yes, my list is mostly mechanized - but it still has 65 footsloggers. Because I love 'em. And they're painted (And I don't have enough Chimeras to go all mech...  ).

Aaand Fandir is right - provided you put regular platoon grunts into your perfectly good APCs instead of veterans.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Checking the FAQ Chrimson is right no stack of astropath or master of the fleet only advantage to have two is you get to use the rule should one get killed in action.

I like saying KIA it reminds me of Jagged Alliance and several other warlike games.

MIA ...KIA......off with your grunts I want to collect your dog tags.

[Crimsonsphinx]

The Bells list was done before all these changes.  You simply cant exploit the books as much any more.

I usually have around 20-40 on foot and around 40-50 in transports.  I can easily field a fully painted army now too   Although I do have a large amount of unpainted models, because I always buy more than I use.

My vets and CCS/PCS use chimeras mainly, and any spares I have go to my platoon [usually two].  I usually only field one, and attach 4 or 5 infantry squads to it.  Sorry that was my point Fandir, I like to use my chimeras to transport my guys.  I dont tend to put all my platoon in 1 blob, and I dont use power swords at all with my guard.

I probably wont ever go fully mechanised, I have no desire to do so.  My army has too many static weapon platforms to make it worthwhile.

[rufus sparkfire]

Chimeras are so awesome.


Has anyone used that rough rider special character? Is he any good? Because I think one of the rough riders I bought on ebay is him.

[Aldaris]

Has anyone used that rough rider special character? Is he any good? Because I think one of the rough riders I bought on ebay is him.

He is quite possibly the worst entry in the entire codex, and appears on "worst 40K units ever" lists. He gives his squad rage, which you really, really do not want in a countercharge unit. On top of that, his stats aren't much better than those of a regular RR sergeant, making him an overpriced dude crippling his squad. Steer clear.

[rufus sparkfire]

Oh. That's a shame!

40 points saved I suppose. No lame cartoon Genghis Khan for me!

[Mathi Alfblut]

I wonder why Sisters of Battle did not get anykind of low-level or different army build unlocking special character. Really beats me since everyone else and their mommas have gotten it so far. We only got... Less units and less stuff. No more Landraiders...
We only got better priests and they brough along a unit that is only for close quarters, so no ability at all to include Guardsmen in any capacity. Heck, not even Adeptus Arbites!

But regardless of the junklist we got served via WD I firmly believe my Sisters would eait Blauer Nebel IG for breakfast. Because they are obviously heretics and because the Emperor so wishes! 

[Crimsonsphinx]

Has anyone used that rough rider special character? Is he any good? Because I think one of the rough riders I bought on ebay is him.

He is quite possibly the worst entry in the entire codex, and appears on "worst 40K units ever" lists. He gives his squad rage, which you really, really do not want in a countercharge unit. On top of that, his stats aren't much better than those of a regular RR sergeant, making him an overpriced dude crippling his squad. Steer clear.

I 100% agree with Aldaris.  Worst special Character in any 5th ed codex I have read.

Mathi, I dont beleive guard can change their army build with special characters?  They can get outflanking, unlimited conscripts etc, but nothing that changes the composition.  Nor do the nids for that matter.

[Blauer Nebel]

I only said colossus.  Which I probably spelled incorrectly, but I meant 1.  I do have a Medusa as well, but that seems less useful.

I read "2 arty" and saw "Collossus". I figured they were both Collossus since the other wasn't defined. My b.

A gunline is incredibly boring to play as and against.  It is boring in fantasy, and it is boring in 40k.  If you don't outshoot the enemy you lose.  Great fun for everyone! 

I agree - that's why I don't play it. But that doesn't change effectiveness.

I would expect a foot guard army to be ripped limb from limb by any number of dark eldar or tyranid armies.  I know this from experience.  Any army which can cross the table rapidly, with competent close combat troops will kill a guard foot army.  It just needs to make hand to hand combat.

That's what the twenty vanilla guard are there for. 2" apart, make a line in front of the enemy. Can't charge through it, and no consolidations into fresh troops afterward. Kill off the twenty Guard, and lololol while you triple tap them in their faces. I'd make a guess that such a scenario cost them ten times more points than your 100 points of expendable Guard that was cut down. As I've said before, if you know what you're doing, multiple close combat assaults in 5th edition are more your failure than your enemy's skill. It's WAY too easy to keep them from killing off your troops in HTH through multiple combats.

I would also question if you have enough terrain on the table.  If you have very little, then a gunline guard list will be incredibly successful.

I got into the hobby with Necromunda. When it comes to terrain, I hardly think there's enough. But it goes both ways; with little terrain, there's little to hide behind, but that means the IG will lack the cover. With too much, they get cover saves, but so do the IG. Difference is, IG benefits more from more terrain than less.

Correct. Foot guard certainly isn't bad, but it is vulnerable to a number of things - and it sucks at taking objectives, which doesn't make it very good at actually winning (as opposed to just shooting things up).

Besides, just to answer one of your examples - 2 squads of Guard "evaporating" a squad of assault termies with FRFSRF is highly unlikely. All those shots will on average drop one or two.

7"-12" in a turn (with Move, Move, Move, even more likely to roll higher)? I don't see how grabbing objectives is difficult. That and you have a platoon that can scout, so depending on the game, you can have a plan to sweep in and take 'em. Can you fly from one corner of the table to the other in one turn to secure an objective? No, but you can't do that with a Valkyrie either (24"). Gotta' have a plan. It all comes down to planning.

Also, as for the termies, I've seen it enough not to underestimate IG (that's 22 lasguns per squad plus heavy weapon times two). Maybe I played more games with Guard (either as or against) or something (I highly doubt that since I don't play that much), and yet I've seen it happen a handful of times since the Codex came out. Call it PTSD or whatever, but I'm not stupid enough to get in 12" range with Guard unless I'm somehow hitting them all at once. I don't care if they have 2+s and Feel No Pain and the Hand of the Emperor Himself going "FORCE FIELD FORCE FIELD FORCE FIELD" in front of it, 12" with Guard means I'm removing squads from the table.

I 100% agree with Aldaris.  Worst special Character in any 5th ed codex I have read.

Mathi, I dont beleive guard can change their army build with special characters?  They can get outflanking, unlimited conscripts etc, but nothing that changes the composition.  Nor do the nids for that matter.

Rough Riders are crap anyway. Only fitting their character would be too. And like Crim said, we lost our doctrines. So even though my BT and Codex Marines don't use specials (I hate 'em), I'm completely forced to roll special characters with my IG to have SOME semblance of a reconnaissance unit. I don't see why 40K doesn't do what Apocalypse did with data sheets: have these guys, pay these extra points, get these special rules. Simple and to the point, and it's been proven to WORK!

Regarding the Bell list, it's nice, but as others have said it's illegal now. I had to tell my friend last night that his inquisitorial retinue is no more for his IG due to the Sisters Codex; he was sad. Allies are gone from Warhammer, it seems, at least as single lists go, which sucks (no more Kroot, no more Inquisition, no more Ogres...). I will say that the list could be done a little better. The inquisitor should have had multi-melta servitors and Sanctuary. Let the Guard do their thing; take out the deepstrikers himself. The auto-shot from Mystics was like, what, 4D6"? Average of 14"? And that's assuming the enemy's that far out; if they're closer, I wouldn't be shooting arty that danger-close. BS4 Multi-meltas would be nasty, and 2D6 armor penetration at roughly the average radius of the mystics' ability.

Plus, if you were playing daemons, so much as touching a Sanctuary field (which effectively remained in the game until the inquisitor moved) with deepstriking meant the unit's destroyed instantly, as per the RAW of Codex: Daemonhunters. No mishap table, straight up gone.

We only got better priests and they brough along a unit that is only for close quarters, so no ability at all to include Guardsmen in any capacity. Heck, not even Adeptus Arbites!

But regardless of the junklist we got served via WD I firmly believe my Sisters would eait Blauer Nebel IG for breakfast. Because they are obviously heretics and because the Emperor so wishes! 

SoB will still get schooled. Points increase means less sisters, and they shine at the 12" mark (IG do, too, but they can dish out the damage the whole way). Sister tanks are thin and lack the punch for dishing out significant ranged anti-infantry damage (I'm assuming the Exorcist is still using its original Codex weapon?). Hell, even the Immolators can't drive 12" and fire anymore. Dominions got nerfed bad, and while the walkers and Repentia are better, considering what they were, that ain't sayin' a whole lot! Sisters are for the masochistic: solid metal models that are costly and nearly impossible to do any sort of conversions with, plus one crappy army Codex after another. Clearly, the Emperor hates chicks.

But as I'm sure some of you have seen the "slipped" papers from the upcoming "true SoB Codex", there will be Arbites there again with Repressor variant Rhinos. Get to finally use all these Enforcers for something!

[der Hurenwiebel]

hmm well that's why I like my drop pods blauer.  get in close with my space vikings where they have the advantage ans minimize the time your arty has to shoot at them.  they might blow up a few but not likely all.  which is the point of a fully armoured force.   either way, it'd be fun to roll dice to find out first hand.

[Blauer Nebel]

Oh I agree with that strategy, dH. I did it with my Black Templars in 4th (half drop pods, half Blacktide), and it was really fun (wish the FAQ gave us the Drop Pod Assault rules...). Only issue is, in terms of "my arty" (assuming you were referring to that 1600-point list), it's just two MoOs; everything else is direct fire hehe. Can drop in and do some damage, sure; that's the wonderful thing about drop pods (especially if y'all have the deathwind launchers, which I'm sure y'do). But then you're also standing in the middle of a massive crossfire. 12" IG = death. The only respite we had in 4th (as BT) was that if any survived (which they wouldn't in 5th against most IG gunlines), they would consolidate into HTH and eat face.

What armor do you bring with your Wolves to support the Drop Pod Assault?