home

Author Topic: Maneaters  (Read 2545 times)

Offline 2841981

  • Members
  • Posts: 163
Maneaters
« on: January 25, 2007, 02:37:13 PM »
okay at the moment i am working on some man eaters converted from ogre bulls for my empire army and i have a few questions

are they worth there points? if i take a unit of three are they worth it in a otherwise balanced list

does anyone use a brace of handguns? im thinking that with there speed and the ability to use handguns like pistols (oh yes no long range  :biggriin:) im thinking they could make quite good mage hunters and having the extra attack is nice (5 str5 attacks  :biggriin:)

would i be better off taking ogre bulls?

cheers

nath

Charge warriors of the Empire and die like the heroes you are!

Offline Rightnow

  • Members
  • Posts: 195
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2007, 03:01:55 PM »
I've never used them, but I know a lot of people like the maneaters.

Everyone seems to like the brace of handguns since they count as pistols.

Don't bother with the Bulls. Take Ironguts instead. They have better leadership, S6 and come with heavy armor.

BTW, according to the NEB you can't take DoW anymore. In friendly games I don't see a problem, but you should be warned.

Offline Captain Tineal

  • Members
  • Posts: 2426
  • You will join me or die! Could you do any less?
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2007, 03:12:57 PM »
The book doesn't say you can't take DOW.  The DOW PDF says you can.

I don't know why there is so much confusion over this.
I don't know what a pisolires is but it sounds like a musical instrument you play with urine...

Offline Rufas the Eccentric

  • The Old Ones
  • Members
  • Posts: 3536
  • Taken from us May 9th 2008 - But never forgotten
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2007, 04:14:56 PM »
The book doesn't say you can't take DOW.  The DOW PDF says you can.

I don't know why there is so much confusion over this.

Because GW has made it that way.  :eusa_wall: 

IMO Maneaters are worth the points.  The real question is: Are they worth the two rare slots they take?  If you don't want to take any of the rare choices in the NEB, then go for it.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 04:16:42 PM by Rufas the Eccentric »
Sigmar on a sling, the stuff some people come up with. . . .

Offline Ernst Brauer

  • Members
  • Posts: 165
  • Yorktown, Virginia - USA
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2007, 06:23:15 PM »
While the DoW debate is still confusing, I think the Ogre Kingdom's Maneater enrty in their army book would still be valid. It specifically says under the Maneater entry that other armies may take them. Since a new OK book has yet to come out, I would assume all of it's rules are still valid?

Of course this is just my rationalization, but it seems more valid than the really old PDFs for DoW.

Offline Dazgrim

  • Members
  • Posts: 875
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2007, 08:05:09 PM »
The exact wording of the Ogre DoW rule is "If the entry for a given Ogre unit type has the special rule 'Dogs of War', they may be taken in a Warhammer army with the option of taking Dogs of War as a Rare choice." To me this forbids the Empire from taking ogre units until an FAQ is released. Conversly we can take DoW as pescribed in the DoW army list.
Don't hug me I'm British, we only show affection to dogs and horses.

Grenzstadt stands.

Offline 2841981

  • Members
  • Posts: 163
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2007, 08:07:55 PM »
gaagh GW really p*ss me off sometimes

They really should survey people

i think i will take them because my opponents wont mind and i dont need the other rare slot (no galloper gun for me  :dry:)

Nath
Charge warriors of the Empire and die like the heroes you are!

Offline Ernst Brauer

  • Members
  • Posts: 165
  • Yorktown, Virginia - USA
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2007, 08:08:05 PM »
Dazgrim, are you talking about the DoW rules or the rules for Maneaters in the OK book?

Offline Dazgrim

  • Members
  • Posts: 875
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2007, 08:23:21 PM »
Both. The rules in the OK book pretty much forbid us from useing their units, but I seriously doubt this was intentional, also I reckon noone will complian if they are used in a friendly game. However the DoW rules sepcifically state that Empire can take DoW as rare units.
Don't hug me I'm British, we only show affection to dogs and horses.

Grenzstadt stands.

Offline Ernst Brauer

  • Members
  • Posts: 165
  • Yorktown, Virginia - USA
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2007, 08:27:53 PM »
I see. I think the DoW rules confusion is one of the most hotly debated topics out there currrently.

I for one have a few Maneaters that I use now and again as my rares. These are friendly games of course and no one really complains.    :happy:

Offline Michael W

  • Members
  • Posts: 912
  • In the Name of the Emperor since 2001
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2007, 08:45:58 PM »
It would be good to note the GT rules, which forbid the Empire any mercs except Giants (and that's probably only to support the kit).  Based on that and the interview with Mr. McNeill (which implied that the DoW decision is either unmade or is as-yet unsaid by GW), it would appear that DoW are in something of a "Limbo" state, where the Empire can't hire Pikes but Chaos can still hire Cannons, based not on game balance or fluff, but simply on the order that the books are released.  DoW armies are still completely valid, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge an opponent his Mercs in any friendly game, but the future is frustratingly unexplained.  Perhaps DoW will be phased out as the books are released, or perhaps given their own PDF or book with full rules, but don't hold your breath for anything soon.  For now, I think the best option is to avoid DoW in a competitive enviornment, where your opponent can point out that you "technically" no longer have the option for Mercs, and play with them all the more in friendly games.

On that note, however, I fully sympathize and agree with the massive confusion thus far from the lack of DoW in the Rare slot.  My less-than-pressing question is, what about RoR?  Many of them don't even take a Rare slot, using a Special instead?  And there's nothing about DoW and RoR being interchangable terms - in fact, it's quite the opposite.  So could I field Pirazzo's Legion but NOT a unit of standard-issue pikes?

Okay, I'm ranting, sorry.  Anyway, my point was made up in paragraph one.  In the interest of keeping this a friendly game, and not a competition-centered one, we should keep our wits and manners about us (as proper Imperial gentlemen) and aim to stay within the rules rather than pressing to the edge of them.

And yes, I'm hurt by the DoW situation - I have a converted unit of Ogre "Greatswords," complete with plate armour, straight-edged swords, and floppy hats with huge feathers that are sitting morosely on my shelf, wondering if they'll ever get to march to battle with Reikland again...
Let them taste Reikland steel!
----------------------------

Offline Dazgrim

  • Members
  • Posts: 875
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2007, 08:53:14 PM »
A pic. of those would be greatly appriciated  :biggriin:
The legality of DoW in an Empire army in tournaments doesn't affect me as my prefered tournament army is DoW. But I would say RoR should be treated on a case by case basis, with Pizzaro's Lost Legion being a perfectly valid choice, now back to the main reason for this post, please could you show us a pic. of your ogre greatswords.
Don't hug me I'm British, we only show affection to dogs and horses.

Grenzstadt stands.

Offline Michael W

  • Members
  • Posts: 912
  • In the Name of the Emperor since 2001
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2007, 08:58:39 PM »
If the pic question is directed at me, I can't...no digital camera, with me, I'm afraid.  If I can get my hands on one this weekend I'll post them.
Let them taste Reikland steel!
----------------------------

Offline 2841981

  • Members
  • Posts: 163
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2007, 09:01:12 PM »
@ Michael W

well said. I also would like to see you ogre greatswords :-)

in the next couple of days ill post pics of my new maneaters (greenstuff incoming  :ph34r:)

Nath
Charge warriors of the Empire and die like the heroes you are!

Offline Taladryel

  • Members
  • Posts: 177
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2007, 05:45:20 PM »
1. As people have pointed out, they may or may not be GT legal.

2. If they were, I would view them in the context of "why does this unit matter more than other Rares in my specific build".

A unit of 3 with GWs is 270 points. I've heard of people using smaller units as speedbumps, but I feel they're too easily neutralized (T4 W3 5+ save at best) by certain armies to be consistently run in small numbers - unless you get them in multiples (a la lone trolls), but that's more of an OK tactic than an Empire tactic. Regardless, these guys can smack people pretty well on the charge (a front of 3 will generally give you 6 S7 hits), but can't take the charge themselves (again, T4 W3 5+ save) and can also be whittled down by shooting/magic quite quickly (3 wounds and the unit's effectiveness goes down by 33%). They're ok grinders (best against some S3 mooks like Skeletons, best with a BSB nearby), but again - somewhat situational.

So they're a not-very-well-armoured heavy hitter slash grinder unit. Ok, fine. Is there anything in the Empire list that can do the same or better job for fewer points? [Hint - it runs on steam.] Second question - does an Empire army need such a unit? [When it already has hitters like knights, which are both faster and more survivable though not quite as hard-hitting.] Third question - if I can fill my "hitter" quota from Core/Special/Characters, should I blow my Rares on Maneaters or save them for juicier stuff?

Both logically and having used Maneaters in multiple armies, I'd say they are net negative from an army optimization standpoint. They're not _necessary_ (unless you forego all other Empire hitters and grinders), and they are rather expensive for their survivability. At the same time, I do find them to be a nice change-up from the usual choices, they can be quite effective when used properly, and it happens to be a unit that _can_ operate on its own (say, in a refused flank setup) or combo with your infantry. I would also add that the few times I've used them, they tended to attract quite a bit of enemy attention - and 2 rounds of handgunner fire _will_ destroy them.

So. I'd use them as more of a "hey, wouldn't this be cool" choice. 3 with GWs and heavy armour.

3. Note that I'm not mentioning handguns. Personally, I feel that the extra shots you get are very, very marginal. Give me the tooled HTH specialists over the fancy handgun-toting Ogres any day. [Now Leadbelchers are a whole different story...]
Proud Nattering Nabob of Negativism

Offline Skyros

  • Members
  • Posts: 1420
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2007, 05:53:15 PM »
Quote
It would be good to note the GT rules, which forbid the Empire any mercs except Giants

The GT rules expressly forbid people who do not have DOW rare choices listed in their army book from taking DoW units as rare choices.  It then goes on to say that RoR may be chosen as per the online listing.

And of course, the mercenary Gryphon Legion isn't DoW at all, so I assume it can still be taken. It's inclusion never depended on any entry in the empire army book at all.

So it looks like we may not be able to take DoW cannons, duellists, or light cavalry, but can take RoR pike units, gryphon legion, and giants? Very bizarre decisions, imo.

Offline Dazgrim

  • Members
  • Posts: 875
Re: Maneaters
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2007, 01:25:01 AM »
I reckon the whole DoW thing is very much up in the air at the moment. To confuse matters further the rules pack for the Conflict tournament states that DoW should be chosen from Warhammer Armies: Dogs of War, where as it states CD should be taken from their Ravening Hordes list, implying there is a DoW book, which leaves me tempted to argue that I can use the 5th ED army book and go to town, unfortunately GW will almost certainly disagree  :dry:
Also in the rules pack it states that no armies from the SoC or Lustria can be used, then gives the DL as an option for an army. Further to this LM are once again missing from the alliance chart  :unsure: :eusa_wall: :eusa_wall:
Don't hug me I'm British, we only show affection to dogs and horses.

Grenzstadt stands.