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Author Topic: The 8e Empire Handbook  (Read 49439 times)

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2013, 10:14:26 PM »
On a side note: it is disputable that Regrowth can be cast on the Steam Tank or the Hurricanum.
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Offline rothgar13

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2013, 10:31:22 PM »
How so? I read the spell description in detail before making my review, and the only outright disallowance was for characters. Lone models are fair game, as they are unit that is 1 member strong.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2013, 10:45:08 PM »
That is only the case if you lift the second sentence in its FAQ form out of the context the rest of the rule. The fact that it would be easier to regrow the Steam Tank or Hurricanum than a knight or pistolier should be a clear warning sign. 
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Offline rothgar13

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2013, 11:24:43 PM »
I think that may make it considered cheesy, not illegal. And yes, it's delightfully amusing that Pistoliers are harder to heal than Steam Tanks. :icon_wink:

Offline redflag

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2013, 01:32:38 AM »
Couple things I would like to suggest you add

Captain on a Pegasus in effect has 3 wounds.  That is an excellent use of 50+ points.  Also in the 8th edition a captain can be mounted on a Pegasus and still be a battle standard bearer.

Knights can be fielded 3x3 and still have lances in the 2nd rank attack.  A 3x3 knight lance with a war banner is an excellent unit (and cheap) that is small in physical size and can be used for chaff clearing war machine hunting etc. 

You can mount a wizard in the 2nd rank of a 3x2 knight unit with full command in order to provide him(or her) with an escort. The wizard still has line of sight and cannot be attacked for at least one turn of combat.  This imperial lance can allow a battle wizard to move cast spells in support of the main blocks of infantry and is relatively disposable.  More importantly a pie plate miscast will not swallow up huge chunks of your army instead  it will at most decimate 5 knights.

Offline rothgar13

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2013, 02:19:27 AM »
I can't say I'm a fan of the Knight escort when 10 Archers are so cheap and so hard to get at thanks to Skirmish, though.

The 3 x 3 Knight "Lance" worries me, because of the lack of static resolution. Obviously, a 5-man unit doesn't get static res and may as well be fielded in a narrow formation most of the time anyway, but 9 Knights is just a step away from 10, and all of a sudden that unit has static res.

I also want to point out that I put up my Tactics blurb, and it mentions the Captasus, though I would refrain from making him a BSB. Not because I don't think he'll survive - I'm more worried that his duties will take him out of re-roll range.

Offline Big Brother

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2013, 02:37:32 AM »
One thing I saw, you mention a musician for flagellants, but they don't have that option.

Offline rothgar13

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2013, 02:53:20 AM »
They don't? Could have sworn they did. Oh, well.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2013, 05:45:21 AM »
I think that may make it considered cheesy, not illegal. And yes, it's delightfully amusing that Pistoliers are harder to heal than Steam Tanks. :icon_wink:

Not just that: if you do ignore the rest of the Regrowth rule (which is a bit more than cheesy), you could apply it to the Steam Tank, but you then create the contradiction that you cannot apply it when cast with ToV, as here it is specified: 
BRB p. 496:  Regrowth instead restores D6 +1 wounds worth of models.

Given that the Steam Tanks wounds are 10, you can never restore D6 + 1 worth of models. The fact that you cannot use ToV Regrowth on a Steam Tank clearly indicates you cannot use Regrowth on the Steam Tank full stop.

You can however use Lifebloom to restore wounds to the Steam Tank (or any other model).
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Offline Warwhore

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2013, 06:45:52 AM »
I've found pistoliers to be effective when teamed with knights and/or demigryphs; their vanguard has pulled opponents out of position on countless occasions allowing me to get off flank charges on turn two. Since they can also keep up with knights and demigryphs, pistoliers have also performed admirably at keeping enemy units from charging my flanks once the knights and demigryphs are stuck in combat. They definately, IMO, have earned their spurs in a mounted list.

From my experiences, I would mark them as green since they've never disappointed me.

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Offline Krokz

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2013, 11:35:12 AM »
Pistoliers are always a controversial for Empire generals. Some like them, some don't :)
Compering them to other armies chaff is not meant for an army handbook. Their price is maybe 2 ppm per model to high but the fact is they are the cheapest fast cavalry WE have got.  As said by Warwhore, archers are fabulous, but they can't keep up with DGKs.

5 man vanilla knights are my favorite to (only problem is enemy fast cavalry can get away from their charge line to easy). And I am a strong proponent of Standard bearer in 5 man knights. That +1 combat resolution helped me every game. Tipped combat result on my side or just making sure I only loose by -1 instead of -2. Brake test on 7-8 is a lot easier then on 6-7. With Standard bearer I even successfully used them for tarpitting crappy enemy buses like slaves or goblins. Who needs Reiksguards ....

As for DGKs, I like to have a champion upgrade there. If my 3 man DGKs loose combat you usually only have one model left and with no champion that Standard bearer model will auto-die when braking from combat. Heaving a champion is helping distributing attacks to. Last week my DGK unit was only two models wide. There was one wound on a champion and two wounds on the rank&file model. If I wouldn't had a champion that unit attack output would be halved.
I am just saying champions have their place in a small multi-wound model unit.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 11:55:58 AM by Krokz »

Offline Darknight

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2013, 12:55:08 PM »
The 3 x 3 Knight "Lance" worries me, because of the lack of static resolution. Obviously, a 5-man unit doesn't get static res and may as well be fielded in a narrow formation most of the time anyway, but 9 Knights is just a step away from 10, and all of a sudden that unit has static res.

I realize this isn't connected with the handbook per se, but what happens if you have a Reiksguard 3x3 unit with the wizard in there? What about a 3x3 unit with a Captain replacing the one of the command models (to give Hold The Line) and a Wizard in the 2nd rank? That would be 7 rank and file models (giving LOS) and a Stubborn Ld8 re-roll break test. At that point, does resolution really matter?
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Offline Krokz

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2013, 01:42:38 PM »
Before you ask yourself about static resolution you have to ask yourself if that unit really needs to be in combat, do you want it in combat, how would it affect my wizard (can't cast magic missiles, can't change frontal arc)? Will that combat only be limited for warmachine hunters (which can brake alternative archer bunker) or will this be an actual chaff level combat unit? Can I even loose a combat versus this kind of enemy units, how much combat phases will there be before wizard gets into first row?

Offline rothgar13

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2013, 02:28:19 PM »
Lots more comments to get through! I'm liking how this is progressing.

@Fidelis: Fair enough, then. I'll alter the blurb for Regrowth to account for this discussion.

@Warwhore: Sure, but the "flank protector" job is done better by vanilla Knights, and those actually fill minimum Core. The Vanguard and the Brace of Pistols is really the draw here as far as I'm concerned, and I think they charge a bit too much for it.

@Krokz: Comparing across armies is not usually good form, I agree. But in this case, the reason why I mention it is because if they were cheaper, I would actually be able to fit them into a standard army list. As it is, I find that they are a bit niche, because many folks have made successful lists where they don't even get a sniff. I can alter the blurb on them to compensate, but I really don't see myself recommending them as highly as I do Greatswords, Outriders, or even Reiksguard.

The standard-bearer on the Knights is certainly useful, don't get me wrong, I'm just not of the opinion it's necessary. It's more of a "I have 10 points lying around, and this is a net positive" sort of deal, you know? You also make a good point regarding DGK champs - I'll alter my blurb to match.

@Darknight: Then the question to ask is why you're investing so much in a unit you don't actually want to risk in combat, because Stubborn will only come up if you're losing combat (and if you are, your Wizard will be in danger sooner rather than later)? When it comes to bunkers, I say keep it cheap and keep it flexible - Archers fit both of those characteristics.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 02:39:50 PM by rothgar13 »

Offline redflag

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2013, 03:36:17 PM »
Sorry I meant 3x2 and not 3x3 (5 knights plus a wizard in a 3x2 formation with the wizard in the 2nd rank)
Thats why I use a 3x2 Knight unit with full command with the wizard in the second rank.  A wizard on horseback has a movement of 8 rather than 4 ( effectivly 7 when escorted by knights). This extra movement allows him/her to  avoid being charged in the first place.  The width of 3 knights allows the escorting unit to squeeze into tight places while manovering around the battlefield (to allow the wizard to cast magic missles/line of sight spells). 

While a lone wizard can be delt with by chaff clearing units a 5 knight unit  (3x2) with a standard helps shield the wizard from chaff clearing units.  Also 5 knights use up core points rather than reights guard type units.
Before you ask yourself about static resolution you have to ask yourself if that unit really needs to be in combat, do you want it in combat, how would it affect my wizard (can't cast magic missiles, can't change frontal arc)? Will that combat only be limited for warmachine hunters (which can brake alternative archer bunker) or will this be an actual chaff level combat unit? Can I even loose a combat versus this kind of enemy units, how much combat phases will there be before wizard gets into first row?

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2013, 03:57:01 PM »
Should the Magic section include a paragraph on Battleprayers?
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Offline rothgar13

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2013, 04:16:54 PM »
I think I'll mention them in the heading above that, as the Magic section is quite full right now. :icon_lol:

Offline Thirsty Beaver

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2013, 04:22:06 PM »
Should the Magic section include a paragraph on Battleprayers?

Without having glanced, does it include magic carts?
them are some stupid and ugly ass pieces. Griffons without wings? Sure as hell ain't touching my army.

Offline rothgar13

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2013, 06:28:26 PM »
It does not include the carts. I can add them if you like, but I'm not much of a fan of either Bound Spell.

Also wanted to point out that Sample Army Lists are up, so the first draft of the Handbook is finished! Let me know what you think. :::cheers:::

Offline rothgar13

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2013, 09:22:47 PM »
Updated to account for the new FAQ. The War Altar and the Demigryphs lost some synergy, but I was being conservative in their rating anyway. That and Spirit Leech are really the only major changes of note.

Offline Martin123

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #70 on: April 25, 2013, 12:22:19 PM »
Really enjoyed reading that.

i dont agree with certain things, i.e lore of life is the best lore, its the best for state troops, but heavens is the best for an all mounted army :)

really good review overall of the entire book

Thumbs up :)

Offline Voltan Ignatio

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #71 on: May 20, 2013, 04:57:30 PM »
Me too, good work on this.

I like the fact that you have essentially given enough information for people to draw their own conclusions from it too.
Well done  :eusa_clap:

Offline rothgar13

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #72 on: May 20, 2013, 06:28:16 PM »
Thanks for the support, folks. If you have some dissenting opinions, go ahead and put up your reasoning - I do read arguments, and if they are strong enough to sway me, I do change ratings based on them.

Offline sammay23

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2013, 02:03:26 PM »
Thanks for the support, folks. If you have some dissenting opinions, go ahead and put up your reasoning - I do read arguments, and if they are strong enough to sway me, I do change ratings based on them.

I think this is a wonderful document, Rothgar. The sort of thing I wish I had when I started playing Empire. I would like to put in a plug for an all-cav list in there. I know it's not traditional from 7th, but they're playing very nicely right now. I have what I think is a very solid list I'd be happy to contribute  :icon_rolleyes:  Nice thing about an all-cav list for a player just starting is that it requires few models.
Bring out the mop and broom sammay.  I want to see you clean this house.

Offline Lanceocletian

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Re: The 8e Empire Handbook
« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2013, 02:01:06 AM »
Overall, the guide is really well done.  I really don't think its worth moving any particular troop, spell, or magic item up or down a notch on your rating system.  I think the next stage would be compiling sample lists based on high placing tournament armies which you are already moving towards.  Additionally, perhaps listing effective sub-variant builds such as spearmen and mortar armies based lists when using shadow magic. 

It still irks me like countless other Empire players that there is such bad internal balance in the army.  Effectively, the army breaks down into 1/3 good to great options, 1/3 fair options depending on certain elements, and 1/3 bad options with no reason to take in a competitive environment.