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Author Topic: Making my army theme work - advice sought  (Read 718 times)

Offline Leefranz

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Making my army theme work - advice sought
« on: July 09, 2017, 03:34:56 PM »
Hello,

Hopefully this is the correct place for this question. I am new to the forum and apologies if this has already been asked.


I have not played Warhammer in over 15 years, I mainly played the old WFRP in my youth but have recently begun to paint an army to play with my neighbour again.

I am trying to decide which faction to play, and at this moment it may be Talabecland, but one thing is bugging me. From my memories of the WFRP Talabecland was more to do with Taal and less to do with Sigmar. Can someone explain to me if it would be normal to have a Talabeclander with a comet / griffon/ sigmar symbol on his armour / banner / sword etc?

From memory I know that Sigmar is the patron diety of all the Empire, does this apply in places like Middenheim and Talabheim/Talabecland?

I bought the Uniforms and Heraldry book to give myself a better idea and there is mention of the Taalbaston guard wearing comet symbols. I can't find any other source that backs this up, so I was a bit worried this was maybe an author taking way too much liberty.

The point of this is that the plastic box sets I see available to start my army on GW site contain a lot of Sigmar bling. The demigryphs especially. Do I need to file this off if I play as Talabecland?

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2017, 03:56:25 PM »
Welcome! Yes, you are in the correct place, but you seem to have confused Talabecland with Talabheim:

As its says in the U&HE (p.46): "The land is named after Taal, the god of bcasts and wild placcs. It is considered great luck to cross thc rivcr Talabec
and regiments doing so will dip their standards into thc water, considering the act a sacred blessing. Talabecland's colours arc red and yellow and the state banner is a crowned eagle. Shiclds and banners often portray antlers or a tree - both symbols of Taal."

Here is one on Talabheim heraldry we prepared earlier: http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=51652.0
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2017, 04:42:58 PM »
You may not have been surprised to notice that the photobucket images have disappeared. If you are interested, I have put them back via imgur in the The History of Talabecland as reflected in its heraldry.
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Offline Leefranz

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2017, 06:48:51 PM »
Thank you for the reply Fidelis.

I read the source that you linked and it was very well done. Many thanks.

Ah I see there has been some debate before about Talabheim. I think that after reading it, I do feel like the official fluff is quite contradictory and at times awkward. I don't understand why a city named after Taal would have 'Deus Sigmar Heldenhammer' and a griffon on one banner and a comet and hammer on another. I'd have presumed it would be a Taalite image, such as a deer's head or something.

Offline Naitsabes

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2017, 08:32:26 PM »
Ah I see there has been some debate before about Talabheim. I think that after reading it, I do feel like the official fluff is quite contradictory and at times awkward.

 :happy:
In a way though it is part of the fun to try and make sense of what decades of writers, some with more, some with much less care for the consistency of background, have produced. It tends to be all Sigmar all the time in the newer material.

In this particular case, just because your your city is named after a certain god, doesn't mean over thousands of years you couldn't switch over to a newer and cooler god. Just ask the people of Athens  :wink:
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Offline Victor

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2017, 08:40:12 PM »

As its says in the U&HE (p.46): "The land is named after Taal, the god of bcasts and wild placcs. It is considered great luck to cross thc rivcr Talabec
and regiments doing so will dip their standards into thc water, considering the act a sacred blessing. Talabecland's colours arc red and yellow and the state banner is a crowned eagle. Shiclds and banners often portray antlers or a tree - both symbols of Taal."


Is your keyboard broken?

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2017, 09:39:18 PM »
No, just my attention span - or my eye sight. Well, probably both.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 09:42:19 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2017, 10:03:00 PM »
@Leefranz
There are basically three official sources of fluff:
- Warhammer Fantasy Battles (i.e the BRB and Army Books)
- WFRP: the role play rule books and scenarios
- The WF novels

It is clear there was no central co-ordination between those three (or even within those three), and there was a major fluff change between WFRP1 and WFRP2 (WFRP 3 was more generic, and lacked detail). The WFB 8th edition retconned the Storm of Chaos Campaign (thank God). So, it should not come as a surprise that much of the fluff is contradictory - which is both a challenge and an opportunity.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 10:33:03 PM by Fidelis von Sigmaringen »
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Offline Osterkicker

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 02:22:19 PM »
It was my understanding that while it pays homage to Taal in namesake, Talabecland and Talabheim were primarily influenced by Sigmar as the chief deity.  The only province or city state where another deity held a primary status was Middenheim with Ulric, and even then Sigmar was prominent.

As a whole, unless you're painting a unit of that is solely dedicated to another god (Knights of the White Wolf, Morr, ect), then Sigmar-themed bits are likely fully appropriate across the Empire.

And welcome, I love fluffy lore armies.    :happy:
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Offline Zygmund

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2017, 10:47:23 AM »
The Scandinavian countries have loads of old placenames with Odin or Tor in them. The names of the weekdays still carry the memory of the old gods. Yet it's Christianity that rules as a faith. There are very, very few who claim to worship the old gods, and none of them can connect to the old tradition. It's all made up, a romanticizing movement connected to extreme nationalism and/or new age.

All the Scandinavian national flags carry the cross, and the national/regional heraldry is strongly influenced by Christian or central European imagery.

During the past two thousand years since the alleged life of the Anointed, the North has gone through several religious shifts:
  • some 800 years of paganism (which probably went through developments we can only guess and imagine now)
  • some 400 years of establishing Christian faith & structures, with seemingly strong local pagan traditions still going on
  • some 300 years of established Catholic Church, with the dying off of paganism, and reinterpretation of pagan myths into Christian ones
  • some 300 years of centrally led Lutheranism, with active uprooting and condemnation of both the remaining pagan traditions AND the characteristics of Catholic Christianity, like the saints (partly unsuccessful)
  • some 160 years of National Churches within a secular state, strongly supported by the nationalist state
  • some 50 years of actual religious freedom, with 'habitual Christianity', atheism, new age and immigrant religions increasing

A place called Taalheim, near the River Talabec, in the electorate of Talabecland, likely has a similarly manifold religious history since the legendary time of Sigmar. The Sigmarite religion has taken over in different phases, for different reasons. But it has always been the Empire religion, whereas the local gods have retained their strong local presence. There are also new, foreign gods, like Myrmidia. At one point in the civil war period, Talabecland was allied with the Ulricians of Middenheim. This probably influenced the religious climate of the city and land. And although the city and province probably are quite Sigmarite these days, Taal is still recognized and the millennia-old tradition lives. Contrary to the example of modern Scandinavia.

I think this makes Talabheim and Talabecland really interesting. While the official emblems and the ruling religion are Sigmarite, the other religions really are alive, with their global and local traditions. Individual units and bands of warriors could very well draw from these other, parallel traditions in defining themselves. You could model a unit with an official Sigmarite flag, but with various individual religious tokens and connotations in the ranks. After all, they do believe in the active existence and protection of several different gods.

-Z
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 10:26:38 PM by Zygmund »
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Offline GamesPoet

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2017, 07:05:04 PM »
@Zygmund ...  :::cheers:::
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Offline Artobans Ghost

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Re: Making my army theme work - advice sought
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2017, 07:43:39 PM »
@Zygmund ...  :::cheers:::

Ditto. Nice peice of history.
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