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Author Topic: Talabecland and Talabheim questions  (Read 713 times)

Offline Mrseer

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Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« on: October 18, 2017, 10:02:09 AM »
To all the fluff sages of the empire! I have a few questions about the grand province of Talabecland.

I saw in a post from years ago that the rough Germanic analogue to Talabecland was Saxony, Lower Saxony and Saxony-Anhalt. It doesn’t give much information and seems to be rather a rough guess or estamation. I would be interested to see if anyone has any ideas around this or counter theories.

One of the wiki pages puts saxony as the inspiration for Ostland but that seems wrong in my mind. 

Secondly I wondered what, if any, specific units have come out of Talabecland or Talabheim. I have the ones from the rpg book (terror in talabheim). But I was wondering if there was a master list, one that might have plucked all the named units out of Glotkin for example.

Thirdly, how ‘in cannon’ are the fantasy flight rpg books considered by the community? As it ties into my other question, are the Knights Stag considered a proper order?

Thanks all

Offline Mrseer

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 10:02:50 AM »
Written on tiny phone, please ignore errors  :-P

Offline Captain Dob Van Dwi

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2017, 02:56:22 PM »
In the Sigmar novels, Talabecland seems to be very Attila the Hun inspired. Ostland and Hochland appear to be very gaulo-germanic in nature.

As for Talabheim it ssems to me that it has virtually remained the same through out tge ages.
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Offline Padre

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2017, 03:03:52 PM »
There were four detailed articles about Talabheim in the fanzine Warpstone, issues 16 - 19 I believe. Lots of information for WFRP players. It was laid out a lot like the Middenheim book was.
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Offline Mrseer

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2017, 08:38:30 AM »
Chaps! Thanks for the speedy responses. Much appreciated.

In the Sigmar novels, Talabecland seems to be very Attila the Hun inspired. Ostland and Hochland appear to be very gaulo-germanic in nature.

As for Talabheim it ssems to me that it has virtually remained the same through out tge ages.

Interesting. I haven't actually read any other the Sigmar stuff yet. I own the first one (I think) and just haven't got around to reading it. I presume you say that because they are mounted? I like like the idea of a hunnic or Ostrogoth flavour.



There were four detailed articles about Talabheim in the fanzine Warpstone, issues 16 - 19 I believe. Lots of information for WFRP players. It was laid out a lot like the Middenheim book was.

Ahh that's cool. I will have to hunt them down.

I have been doing a little reading around. I think it's obvious that they haven't made any of the empire's states a one for one analogue. I think it's a bit more mixed and with a bit of Britain thrown in for good measure. However, Saxony is the homeland of the Ottonian dynasty and Talabecland is the home of the Ottilian emperors. So I would put that as a solid point ion the comparison chart.

Offline Xathrodox86

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 01:20:13 PM »
When FFG released the 3rd edition, they've discarded most of the stuff from the 2nd and 1st. That's why I love 2nd edition WFRP/6th WFB so much. They are the most lore-rich editions of Warhammer Fantasy.
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Offline Mrseer

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 04:11:28 PM »
Ah cool. What would you recommend? Years ago I had thensold down the river book, which I loved. But that was yonks ago.

Offline Oxycutor

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2017, 04:17:20 PM »
When FFG released the 3rd edition, they've discarded most of the stuff from the 2nd and 1st. That's why I love 2nd edition WFRP/6th WFB so much. They are the most lore-rich editions of Warhammer Fantasy.

From what I've read of 3rd, most of the lore/background for 3rd edition isn't that different to 2nd edition WFRP.  Just with a few extra bits from keeping more in line with the WFB background for 7th/8th of the time it was released.   That's not much different to the 6thed WFB that was around for WFRP 2nd, with the only real change being that WFRP 2 is set post Storm of Chaos, which can easily be ignored. 

It's a much bigger lore jump I think from 2nd edition back to 1st, especially if you take into account the end of Empire in Flames, and even a lot of the way things are for the Enemy Within.

Mind you it seems a lot of the WFRP die-hards are 1st ed fans, and that setting to me isn't really the Warhammer World any more.   2nd is my preferred ruleset and setting.  I've pinched a few bits from 1st though.  Some of the skills that got dropped for 2nd, and scenarios.   i've set my Enemy Within campaign that I'm GM'ing prior to the coronation of Karl-Franz, using Leopold II, his father as the Emperor during my timeframe.  (At least I think it's Leopold II prior to KF, It hasn't been something i've had to check since I first made notes a year ago, despite playing most weeks for the last year, i've not really got onto TEW yet)

Offline Xathrodox86

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 12:30:01 PM »
1st edition did not aged well, with all the silly stuff and nonsense. TEW is a great camapign, but the last two modules are utter trash. Empire at War, a fan made supplement, is a much better ending than the Empire in Flames.

2nd edition was a very distinct one, thanks to the SoC, which I'm a huge fan of, personally. 3rd edition let it go, just like 8th WFB.

Rules wise and lore wise, the 2nd edition is probably the most friendly and well written of them all. I definitely do not recommend returning to the first.
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Offline Captain Dob Van Dwi

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2017, 07:28:32 PM »
I feel like I should chime in and say that you shouldn't bother looking at 3rd ed. Most of the writing is set in the Grey Mountains & Reikland.

Also some of it is very poorly written. :eusa_wall:
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Offline Xathrodox86

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 01:01:41 PM »
I feel like I should chime in and say that you shouldn't bother looking at 3rd ed. Most of the writing is set in the Grey Mountains & Reikland.

Also some of it is very poorly written. :eusa_wall:

Oh yeah, definitely. The writing for the 3rd is really bad, in many places at least. :closed-eyes:
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Offline Mrseer

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2017, 05:14:16 AM »
Thanks guys. What do you recommend from 2nd ed then?

Offline Oxycutor

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2017, 10:10:35 AM »
Pretty much all of what you'd find out about Talabheim and Talabecland would come from Sigmar's Heirs and Terror in Talabheim.   Other than that, many of the one-off adventures from 1st and 2nd  (Can't think of any from 3rd, it's been too long since i read any of it)  are designed to be dropped anywhere in the Empire it suits your campaign. 

You might also get some information in small pieces from Tome of Salvation and maybe Realms of Sorcery. 

If you're more after information for regiments and stuff for WFB, then Uniforms and Heraldry of the Empire, and maybe Warhammer End Times: Glottkin might name a few.

In the early years of WFB and WFRP there were maybe half a dozne knightly orders, from 6th edition, I think GW tried to Space Marine them and make up hundreds of them.  But to fit in with published information on populations from Sigmar's Heir's and Death on The Reik, some of those orders would have to literally be the size of the regiments you'd see fielded - 5 men on horses.   WFB artwork and background describes vast armies thousands strong, which would mean the Empire would have to be much more populated than it's described, or literally everyone is a soldier

Offline S.O.F

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2017, 10:39:01 AM »
In the early years of WFB and WFRP there were maybe half a dozne knightly orders, from 6th edition, I think GW tried to Space Marine them and make up hundreds of them.  But to fit in with published information on populations from Sigmar's Heir's and Death on The Reik, some of those orders would have to literally be the size of the regiments you'd see fielded - 5 men on horses.   WFB artwork and background describes vast armies thousands strong, which would mean the Empire would have to be much more populated than it's described, or literally everyone is a soldier

Somewhat that is true but it was really the 5th WHFB edition that shrunk the number of orders rather than the background. In the third edition list it was just broad classes of Imperial Knight, knights of the various religious orders, the large secular orders, and then just the local bands of knights. Post 6th though when the knights were made a generic catch all again there certainly was creep in the number of orders or more annoyingly making more and more of them religious in nature (or like the botch job on the Reiksguard). 

The population figures should also always be disregarded since even the better writers for WHFRP have never had a good gauge of the basic logistics or statistics of late medieval/renaissance society. If anything population numbers would be more accurate if you regard them as the list of all tax paying households.
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Offline Oxycutor

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2017, 11:36:52 AM »
I've just been reading The Time Travellers Guide to Medieval Britain by Ian Mortimer, which covers 1300-1400, but the city, town and village sizes aren't that far off what's given for The Empire, but there would be many, many, many more villages, even some of the more detailed maps done of The Empire (Excluding all the issues I have with maps of the Empire) have a few massive cities, and a handful of surrounding villages, and occasionally a few small towns and villages between each city.  In effect they have some kind of settlement every 25-30 miles along major rivers, and not much else.  In our world there would be some sort of settlement every 5-7 miles along those trade routes, and even out in the surrounding area - obviously we don't have such bizarre things to deal with as Forest goblins, beastmen and elves, so I can sort of get there being less density away from major routes, but only so that along those routes there would be more density.

I'm currently reading one of the following books The Time Travellers Guide to Restoration Britain 1660-1700, which is much more in keeping with the period of the Empire technologically at least.   I don't know enough about central European - German history to know when the Holy Roman Empire period was.   Anyway, population is only around twice that as it was in the 14th century.

Regardless, my way of reconciling the differences between WFB and WFRP, for when I'm GM'ing WFRP is to multiply the size of those settlements listed in Sigmar's Heir's by 10, and assume there are smaller villages in between

Offline Xathrodox86

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2017, 11:48:00 AM »
Just remember that the Old World is a much, much bigger place, space-wise, than our medieval/reneissance Europe. Not to mention that the Empire is a heavily militarised country, mainly out of necessity. Still, I don't think that hundreds of KO's do exist in the Empire. Maybe a hundred, tops.
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Offline Rowsdower

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2017, 04:06:16 AM »
Can I throw my two cents in?
Most of the Empire seems to follow 'not quite-renaissance Europe' society, except for Stirland which is significantly poorer than  most of the other regions. Stirland might be 'poor' but I don't think its peasantry is on the same repressed level as Bretonia though.
I'd imagine that Empire peasants would be attired much like the Militia kit miniatures. The professional soldiers wear those fancy uniforms with boots because they can either afford them or they can pay for it themselves.
Some states may also vary in regards to national dress. The lower rungs might imitate their heads of state and wear icons and symbols that are connected to folklore or local religion.

In regards to the towns. In my state. There tends to be a one horse town every seven to eight miles on the roads. Its because before cars, horses could only travel so far in a day and would need a rest. That's why so many one horse towns in my area have heritage listed pubs. Although magical and fantastical conveyances exist in the empire [steam tanks, griffons, giant eagles etc] the average Empire man could probably only afford an old mule or nag [the equivalent of a used sedan or station wagon]. Steam tanks are pretty rare and I don't think giant eagles or griffons would be as common or tame as they are in other fantasy realms.   

Online GamesPoet

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Re: Talabecland and Talabheim questions
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2017, 12:19:53 PM »
Good conversation here, thanks for posting!
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