Topic: Outrider question

[carrasco]

So - I've tried searching this forum, searching google and the GW errata (Jan 2013) for the empire army book but I still can't find anything supporting putting a hochland long rifle on a outrider sharpshooter. The option isn't in my army book but I still see it being purchased in alot of army lists using the riders.

So, where can I find/is the option stated - to buy a hochland long rifle for an outrider champ?

Thanks for any advice/help.

[frenkish]

You used to be able to upgrade HLR on an outrider champion, but they removed that option from the 8th ed. book

[carrasco]

Ah noooooow I see. So there's nothing wrong with my eyes after all
Thanx, this thread can now be locked, trhown away and forgotten.

[frenkish]

Yeah I know it sucks I modelled a champ with HLR like 1 month before the new armybook. Made me a saaaaaad panda

[jaggedjimmyj]

Was a strange thing to remove. It's not as if it was overpowered. But it was a fun combo.
Old cruddy removed most of our fun, and actually managed to turn our book into the most bland eight edition book so far.

[The Peacemaker]

Yeah I know it sucks I modelled a champ with HLR like 1 month before the new armybook. Made me a saaaaaad panda

Lol, this is exactly what I did. 1-2 months before new book.

Was a strange thing to remove. It's not as if it was overpowered. But it was a fun combo.
Old cruddy removed most of our fun, and actually managed to turn our book into the most bland eight edition book so far.

I agree.
His books just don't compliment books written by other authors. He nerfed our shooting and then new army books are getting better shooting.
I won't say anymore because the cruddance topic is like whipping a dead horse.

[Radetski]

Hey guys, I don't know if this has been addressed before but, can mounted troops like Outriders avail of the two ranks of shooting like their infantry equivalents?
I don't think that it says anywhere that they can't and I'm imagining an abstraction of a caracole manoeuvre.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Yes. There is nowhere a limitation that cavalry cannot fire in two ranks.

[Radetski]

Thanks, so In theory Outriders with their Fast Cavalry and Vanguard special abilities should be able to deliver a lot of firepower in the opening turn of the game, especially if accompanied by a fast moving deflector unit of Pistoleers. I have 4 boxes that I haven't built yet. The idea is to build a fast and manoeuvrable flanking force to, hopefully, devastate the unit on my opponents far flank and then roll along his line in further turns.
What would be the best way to build them? I am currently thinking of ten outriders in two ranks and two deflector units of 5 Pistoleers.

[The Peacemaker]

What else do you run in your list?


There was also a thread a little while ago, maybe about a couple months where somone built an big 3x 10 outriders army. Basically 10 in the middle and 10 on each flank.

[rothgar13]

I like 2 x 10 Outriders - I wasn't able to sneak in enough support for 3 x 10 when I was building up my really shooty list for the Handbook's Sample Armies section.

[The Peacemaker]

I like 2 x 10 Outriders - I wasn't able to sneak in enough support for 3 x 10 when I was building up my really shooty list for the Handbook's Sample Armies section.

There he is! This is the guy who has experience with the outriders.

I have a bit too since I field my block of 10 outriders with barding from time to time. But most people don't like going against good shooty armies so I don't use them very often.

[rothgar13]

Having been on the receiving end of 10 Outriders as well, I can tell you they're not pleasant to fight against. You can't throw chaff at them because they'll get blown to bits, and the bite they'll take out of your ranked units will make you think twice about it. The only "safe" ways to do it are outside of combat or with cavalry-level armor and the Outriders can just flee from those combats (unlike conventional war machines), and put themselves in position to either jam the unit chasing them again or dart outside its line of sight altogether.

[TheBelgianGuy]

Don't you mind they're T3 and AS5+ ? How would you support them?
Also, Multishots and Long range, they're hitting on 5's already. Are they REALLY worth it?

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Well, you cannot mind those stats much if you play Empire. On their own they don't say much.

Personally I would not support them. I would think of them as support. That doesn't mean you cannot improve them with say, Lore of Metal or Fire, or really any other magic that makes them tougher or scarier. What about scaly skin, or -1 to hit? Suddenly the effort to remove them becomes much greater.

Sure, they will attract magic missiles but a) those are PD not going towards potentially more dangerous spells, b) sometimes not even that scary (d6 S3 or whatnot), as not everyone takes Fire, and c) can usually still be dispelled. They're also not being thrown at the archers which can and probably should also be there.

No, they're not always worth it. Against Skaven with Stormbanner online, double Abom and 3*150 Slaves they will go down, as will 40 Greatswords or 50 Halberds with all the trimmings but that's an extreme, and with the right target selection I think it's viable. Lots of stuff in the new books is becoming more expensive...

[Radetski]

Well, I'm going to be facing off against a 3200 pt WoC army first. There will be a Demon Prince and several units of CW, most of which will not exceed 20. There are likely to be 2-3 units of chaos knights as well and probably a single unit each of marauder horse and infantry. I don't expect anything approaching horde size units from my opponent.

I'm going to be playing with (bus?) units of 30+Halberds and 30+ Spearmen with detachments of 15 HG and 5 Archers each. Each will also have a HVG moving alongside as a battalion support weapon. Risky? Yes but I intend to purchase two basic engineers for re rolls.
I'm going to go light on magic items to afford extra characters as I would like Captains and WPs in both core units.

I'm not taking any knights in the hope that this is going to worry my opponent into wondering what I'm up to.

For special, a single great cannon, 10 Outriders and 2x 5 Pistoleers. Finally, for some punch, a unit of 25-30 Greatswords with BSB and WP.

Finally, apart from the HVGs, a unit of Flags to 'tarpit' anything that looks like it's really threatening my line.

Final figures are going to be revised as I need a General and as high level Battle Wizard as I can afford.

Thoughts on cheapo combinations of magic items would be appreciated. I'm hoping that Hold the Line and the WP prayers may make up for lack of Killy magic items in the main units.

[Radetski]

The WoC are likely to be Khornate with a Tzeentchian element. I don't expect him to field Slaanesh or Nurgle. Any thoughts or tips would be appreciated. I'm expecting him to try to close the gap ASAP and get to the killin.

Archers are speed bumps. HVGs are to make his advance as costly as possible. HGs are expensive but I need the AP vs the CW's armour. The detachments are on three ranks of five. Can use two ranks of incoming fire or hope to disrupt his rank bonuses as required.

I intend to use my fast moving troops to overwhelm one flank with firepower and then roll along his line.

The Flags and the Greatswords will be acting in a support on roll to each other, placed between the two main units.

The great cannon will be taking pot shots at any monsters, demon princes etc, or along a nice line of chaos knights if I can deflect him into revealing a flank to my gunners

[Darknight]

You guys are encouraging me to buy and build some outriders, even though they really don't fit with my army theme at all . . . any ideas on how I can represent what outriders do in a Greek mythology theme?

[BBorN]

i actually ran 2x10 Outriders and 2x5 pistoliers to Da Boyz GT in Rochester NY and I have to say, EVERY opponent was crapping in their pants when they saw them vanguard up to short range and just unload on units. Anything that wasnt a large unit was just evaporated. I went against a HE army and tabled him by turn 4, each turn I literally took out a unit with shooting alone, I don't think I even saw combat the whole game. Oh, you have a unit of 15 guys with your wizard in there? dead. Oh, you have swordmasters? dead. 60 archers? dead. the only reason I didnt do better than 2-2-1 was due to needing 300+ points for a win (my draw I won by like 290 points) my losses came from not knowing the new vamp book and not having any magic weapons (mistake) and my other loss can be summed up in one roll, 30 shots and ZERO hits, whole game went like that.

heres a link to the original discussion i brought up when I thought about running 30 outriders:

http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43943.msg748787#msg748787

[TheBelgianGuy]

Well, you cannot mind those stats much if you play Empire. On their own they don't say much.

Granted, I don't mind those stats on statetroopers, but those don't cost 21 pts each! 
I admit I like taking 5 of them for easy chaff-clearing and the sort, but I don't know if I'd take 10? I don't even have that many models... Hmm 

[The Peacemaker]

10 outriders, barding, BSB(pistol), Warrior priest(war alter is better). = bring it on.

And lore of heavens.
And HBVG for support works wonders. The enemy has to weather that under 24" range before combat .....if they survive.

[rothgar13]

Don't you mind they're T3 and AS5+ ? How would you support them?
Also, Multishots and Long range, they're hitting on 5's already. Are they REALLY worth it?

Not overly much, no. Support takes the form of units that can handle themselves in close combat running up the middle, Shadow magic to make the S4 stick a little better and water down enemy shooting, and chaff to redirect things they can't scare off with their shots.

And yeah, it's still worth it, because that's 30 guaranteed shots, so even hitting on 5+, you're expecting 10 hits. Consider that I suggested 2 units, and that's 20 S4 AP hits. That may cost as much as some Hordes, but it will essentially make them useless after 2 rounds. And also consider that during one of those rounds you're likely hitting on a 4+, and that's 1.5x as many hits.

[BBorN]

Don't you mind they're T3 and AS5+ ? How would you support them?
Also, Multishots and Long range, they're hitting on 5's already. Are they REALLY worth it?

Not overly much, no. Support takes the form of units that can handle themselves in close combat running up the middle, Shadow magic to make the S4 stick a little better and water down enemy shooting, and chaff to redirect things they can't scare off with their shots.

And yeah, it's still worth it, because that's 30 guaranteed shots, so even hitting on 5+, you're expecting 10 hits. Consider that I suggested 2 units, and that's 20 S4 AP hits. That may cost as much as some Hordes, but it will essentially make them useless after 2 rounds. And also consider that during one of those rounds you're likely hitting on a 4+, and that's 1.5x as many hits.

taking that a step further, against T4 models, that is 10 wounds, taking a huge chunk out of a horde and after a second round of that if you hit on 4s, thats 15 wounds average. Taking down 25 models in two rounds is pretty devastating.

[polybus11]

I may have 15 Outriders and 10 Pistoliers all nicely painted in my cabinet but I am still not buying this malarchy.  I can't think that Outriders are "good" anymore.  Even if 5 goblins gets the charge on this guys, they are toast.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

It would seem to depend on who gets the first turn.