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Author Topic: Empire of Man feedback  (Read 900 times)

Online Skyros

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2024, 05:57:52 PM »
Empire priests are LD 7, so if the necrotect ability cannot be relied upon, neither can the priests.

Now, unlike empire, necrotects can use the BSB to reroll their leadership tests if they fail, so it's actually quite reliable in my experience. I think you're failing that like 15% of the time?

Offline commandant

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2024, 07:13:45 PM »
Its not that it can't be relied on. After all it'll work 58% of the time (80 something % with the reroll) but its just that it was given as a reason to give witch hunters hatred 100% of the time. I was pointing out these are different things, very different things

Offline Minsc

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2024, 07:17:07 PM »
Its not that it can't be relied on. After all it'll work 58% of the time (80 something % with the reroll) but its just that it was given as a reason to give witch hunters hatred 100% of the time. I was pointing out these are different things, very different things

My bad, I was very unclear in my previous post; I meant that giving WHs or Priests a similar hatred-ability that the Necrotects have, including Ld-test would be fine. With that said, they also give +1 A so...

Offline commandant

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2024, 07:33:28 PM »
Giving the priests a prayer which grants hatred could be interesting. Or maybe a prayer which grants frenzy or furiously charge or something.

Offline The Peacemaker

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2024, 08:15:10 PM »
It's worth noting that I think most Empire players like taking characters to lead their squads. Now they aren't superhumans or grail knights so their attack/damage output doesn't need to be high, but they NEED TO LEAD and inspire their squads.  Leadership 7 is not leading. Extremely situational buffs or 50/50(58% on weak prayers) is not very inspiring.

Heck, I'd add impetuous to warrior priest if it meant he brought some kahonas to the table.
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Offline commandant

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2024, 09:15:02 PM »
There can be some discussion about what weak means. None of the prayers (except possibly soulfire) are weak.

Like a 5+ ward save against shooting is strong

Offline Warlord

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2024, 10:02:56 PM »
Commandant - have you played with any other army lists than Empire?

Also your experience playing in your meta, at your point values is fine, just like me, but it does not make either of us universally correct.

What do you think is wrong with the armylist then seeing as you seemed to shoot down pretty much any improvement I suggested other than CMs able to also be a BSB? I don’t feel my suggestions were going to push our armylist into overpowered territory though.

Except maybe the war altar prayer suggestion - which I admit wasn’t fully thought out and is pretty powerful.
And regarding priests, maybe all they need is ld8. Or BSB allowing reroll….. actually war altar allowing reroll. THAT would help both units and be thematic.
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Offline Minsc

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2024, 12:52:37 AM »
There can be some discussion about what weak means. None of the prayers (except possibly soulfire) are weak.

Like a 5+ ward save against shooting is strong

Ehh, I wouldn't say strong. The prayers are mediocre at best honestly.
I've seen several people consider them "undispellable spells" (that only work 58% of the time), and they are essentially a mixture of Enchantment- and Assailment-spells, so lets compare them as such:

1) Shield of Faith. A 5++ vs shooting (only).
Good against armies with alot of shooting, terrible against armies with no/little shooting.
Comparable spells are the 5++ from Lore of Battle, the 5++ and defended obstacle but cannot march/charge from Lore of Elementalism, the 6++ against non-magical + Fear from Lore of Necromancy and the 5++ until the end of your turn from High Magic.

Shield of Faith is basically a shooty-equivalent Shield of Saphery from High Magic. I'd rate it one of the lowest of the bunch, because ultimately, generally speaking, melee has a larger impact than shooting, and Shield of Saphery makes you dictate where the benefits are (you are the active part, you give it to a unit and charge in), while Shield of Faith is a reactive power, the opponent can simply shoot at something else.

2) Soulfire. D6 S3 AP2 Flaming Magical hits.
I mean yeah, this is just a bad Assailment spell. Not even bother gonna compare it to the various others.

3) Hammer of Sigmar. Re-roll 1's to hit or wound during the combat phase. If this is *both* to-hit and to-wound rolls I'd consider it one of our best, if not our best prayer. This Prayer is pretty much on par with many buff spells from various lores.

4) Battle Howl: +D3" to charge. Doesn't increase max charge range and doesn't add any M-value so useless unless you charge, so it's kinda mediocre. Comparable spells would be the +1 M/T/I from Daemonology and +D3 M (or even WS or I if you roll high enough) from Lore of Undeath.

5) Winters Chill. This seems really good at first glance, but if you do the math on it, it's inferior to most defensive spells out there + it only works in close combat. If your opponent hits you on 4+, it's the equivalent of having a -0,5 to hit (instead of just flat out -1 to hit) and if they hit on 3+ it's even worse. This prayer does shine against Poisoned Attacks, but other than that, it's a *really* bad version of Glittering Robe.

6) Wrath of Winter: This prayer, just like Hammer of Sigmar, isn't half-bad, depending on how you apply it + it's (strangely enough) not restricted to close combat only. There are no comparable spell, altough I guess at the end of the day, most of the time a spell that grants +1 Attack or similar would be a better option against most targets.

So that leaves 2 decent/mediocre (Wrath of Winter, Hammer of Sigmar), 3 weak* (Shield of Faith, Winters Chill, Battle Howl) and 1 garbage (Soulfire).
(*Weak as in, they are more or less bleak copies of existing spells/abilities.)

All in all, the prayers aren't terrible, but just as with the Empire army as a whole, they leave alot to be desired...
« Last Edit: May 04, 2024, 12:56:02 AM by Minsc »

Online Clymer

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2024, 02:08:42 AM »
Ok, since we’re wishlisting, I came up with one I really want to see: Flagellants gain access to skirmishers and open order at no additional cost.

I’d also love to see the Holy Fervor range on the War Altar expended to 12”. That would make the Altar pretty darn good.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2024, 03:53:49 AM by Clymer »
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Tiberius

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2024, 05:26:31 AM »
It's worth noting that I think most Empire players like taking characters to lead their squads. Now they aren't superhumans or grail knights so their attack/damage output doesn't need to be high, but they NEED TO LEAD and inspire their squads.  Leadership 7 is not leading. Extremely situational buffs or 50/50(58% on weak prayers) is not very inspiring.

Heck, I'd add impetuous to warrior priest if it meant he brought some kahonas to the table.

I could not agree more.

The Old World Warrior Priests are bad fluff wise and rule wise.  They used to be a character that had a little bit of fight, a little bit of buffing allies, and a little bit of magic. Not as personally powerful as a Captain, but could give Hatred (against some or all enemies depending on the edition) and throw in a Dispel Dice to help your Magic.  I loved all those things.  They could be on the front line, make your state troopers a little better, and help out in the magic department.  The Prayers were an added bonus and usually just used up a enemy dispel die.  Fluff wise they were tough as nails devotees of Sigmar, and the rules made it feel like that. Fluffwise and rulewise, my favorite characters by far.

Now all of that as been removed.  They have their same mediocre combat, but now they give no automatic buffs to your troops, they give very little to magic defense, and the prayers and worse though I suppose likely more likely to get off.  Sadly, their leadership means I am never going to take a Lector, because their is no way I'm going to use a Ld. 8 general.  There is nothing great I can depend on with this guys, there are just some OK things I can hope I get at the right time. 

The Leadership lose hurts so much because that is Lorewise what matters!  I know someone in another thread said they don't have the strategic thinking of a professional soldier.  But that's not what Leadership is representing.  It's representing willpower, inspiration and determination, which they should have more of than a professional soldier.  It makes me so annoyed every time I think about it.

Online Skyros

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2024, 02:58:52 AM »
There can be some discussion about what weak means. None of the prayers (except possibly soulfire) are weak.

Like a 5+ ward save against shooting is strong

It's really not. The things it would be most useful on (multi wound models you don't want cannoned) can't be joined by warrior priests. Maybe if it extended to detachments it would be useful? or does it already?

I just finished a 5 round tournament and I can count the total number of my 1 w models killed by shooting on one hand.

Now what is really good, is the casket of souls 36" diameter bubble that gives -1 to hit and 6 up ward save against every sort of wound.

That's what something strong looks like.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2024, 03:34:43 AM by Skyros »

Offline Footpatrol2

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Re: Empire of Man feedback
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2024, 07:59:03 AM »
There can be some discussion about what weak means. None of the prayers (except possibly soulfire) are weak.

Like a 5+ ward save against shooting is strong

It's really not. The things it would be most useful on (multi wound models you don't want cannoned) can't be joined by warrior priests. Maybe if it extended to detachments it would be useful? or does it already?

I just finished a 5 round tournament and I can count the total number of my 1 w models killed by shooting on one hand.

Now what is really good, is the casket of souls 36" diameter bubble that gives -1 to hit and 6 up ward save against every sort of wound.

That's what something strong looks like.

The 5+ ward save prayer can be applied to units within the priests cmd range... So you can apply it to multi wound things you don't want cannoned...

Ive been placing 5+ ward saves on my helblasters so it doesn't get elf bow fired to death via earthen ramparts. I've been thinking it might be better done by a priest of sigmar. So I could place earthen ramparts on something else. The prayer and the spell roughly have the same chance going off if your elementalism wizard is within the enemies wizardly dispell range.