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The Campaign Archive => Nemesis Crown Board => Topic started by: Blackthorn on June 19, 2007, 10:07:13 PM

Title: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Blackthorn on June 19, 2007, 10:07:13 PM
Sorry about resurrecting a locked thread, (only found it) but since I was the ambassador at the Blood Keep who negotiated with the Vampire Counts I must reply.

Two quick questions,

1st: Has anyone, who has called us oath breakers actually read the thread concerned?

Quote
There is no agreement between VC and Dwarfs. They were only talking about a fluff alliance "I mention you in reports, you mention me."

2nd: If you have, how come the elf can follow what is being said but no one else here seems too. I don’t mean to be blunt but I have put a massive amount of effort into trying to co-ordinate a common opening move for the UK. I am not “dense enough” to throw it away by forming an official alliance with the Vampire Counts on a public forum, which would p!ss off ever good aligned race who has already signed up.

Of course if this is a nice justification at bringing hostilities against the Dwarfs then it’s a clever way of trying to justify it.

Maybe I should sob over at the Brewery about your supportive fluff with the Dark Elves.

Blackthorn
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Wyzer1 on June 19, 2007, 10:12:55 PM
Quote
1st: Has anyone, who has called us oath breakers actually read the thread concerned?
Probably not

Quote
Of course if this is a nice justification at bringing hostilities against the Walters then it’s a clever way of trying to justify it.
Yes

Quote
Maybe I should sob over at the Brewery about your supportive fluff with the Dark Elves.
Hmm, must have missed that thread... I caught the orc one

I think most of us just want a fun enemy to be honest with ya. Go on back to Bugmans, Walter ( :wink:)

EDIT: What is your forum profile picture? Is that an Anvil of Doom? Yet another reason we dislike Walters
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Blackthorn on June 19, 2007, 10:26:11 PM
ORCS – I missed that one, it gets worse.

Never mind, perhaps it was too ambitious to try and co-ordinate this with the Empire. GW have cast us as enemies in this campaign, it would be a lot easier to follow their storyline for our two factions.

Don't know what this Walter thing is, I presume its bad.

Blackthorn
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Wyzer1 on June 19, 2007, 10:32:30 PM
Quote from: Blackthorn on June 19, 2007, 10:26:11 PM
Don't know what this Walter thing is, I presume its bad.
Ah, its just kind of an inside joke. A couple of us kept getting mad everytime someone called the "War Altar" a WALTER, and over the course of the rest of the thread (which digenerated into Dwarf Bashing) we decided to start calling Dwarves "Walters"... kind of like Charlie or something
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on June 20, 2007, 08:08:08 AM
he he he so far to political correctness... I call dwarves still dwarves...but only the noble ones who put oaths over a storyline of a country that doesn't exist in the old world.  :mellow: So ambassador what do you have to say...will you fulfill your oath and defend the empire against all who come there with weapons brandished or not?
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: FVC on June 20, 2007, 09:26:59 AM
Quote from: Wyzer1 on June 19, 2007, 10:32:30 PM
Ah, its just kind of an inside joke. A couple of us kept getting mad everytime someone called the "War Altar" a WALTER, and over the course of the rest of the thread (which digenerated into Dwarf Bashing) we decided to start calling Dwarves "Walters"... kind of like Charlie or something

Oh, come on. You don't need racial slurs to insult dwarfs. Just call them dwarfs. That's insulting enough in itself. :-D
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Volkmar The Grim on June 20, 2007, 09:41:57 AM
hey don't disrespect the the dwarfs they are the one s that pretty much gave us our fortresses E.G The city of the white wolf and gave us Neely every thing we know on enginering and building
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Veldemere on June 20, 2007, 11:03:51 AM
It is true the Walters gave us a less reliable thing of everything they have (they even turned the organ gun into a Helblaster grrrrrr).

But to leap to this Walters defence (never thought I would do this during the campaign) I have read the VC threads and it is just a fluff alliance, there is no mention of Alliance or NAP, in fact this was clearly ruled out!

We have been discussing fluff alliances with greenskins and Druchii, the only difference is that we were approached by them, the Walters approached the VC, ill advised, unfluffy but not a criminal offence.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: wissenlander on June 20, 2007, 11:40:55 AM
Welcome back, Master Blackthorn.

I can't really speak for everyone but I do believe that the misunderstanding stems from a deeper issue.  One that has gone back almost two months now and the opening negotiations that did not go so well.  I will not bring that up, it gives me horrid nightmares.

I still am hopeful that we may be able to coordinate as well.  I know there are factions in both camps that have been using pretty strong words against the other, but my hope is that we can still maintain our long lasting friendship.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Blackthorn on June 20, 2007, 12:42:32 PM
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will you fulfill your oath and defend the empire against all who come there with weapons brandished or not?

Will I raise my axe and defend the Empire, its lands and its people.
I already have set this in motion many weeks ago. Games Workshop would have us at each other throats as two of the main combatants, however we Dawi of the Brewery where deeply unhappy about this scenario.
Hence we had to find a compromise; we needed to limit the amount of conflict between two former allies. This war will be a flash in the pan in the Warhammer Timeline its important that there are no major “developments” between our two races which cause bad feelings for generations to come.
The Empire is built on Dawi military practises, many of the great Empire civic buildings and structures are crafted by Dawi mason. The technology advancement of the Empire has been driven by Dawi engineers. When the Empire has been in peril it has been the Dawi who have sounded the war horns and marched to their aid, time and time again. How many times have the sons of Sigmar marched to aid a Dawi Karak, how many Empire armies have aided the Dawi in trying to re-take a lost Karak, from my research I can find none?
The alliance of Old is one sided, there can be no doubt or question of that. We the Dawi have taken a heavy toll to support the Empire for little gain.
However I have side tracked and need to answer your question. Between Dawi & Empire ambassadors we are trying to limit inter-race conflict between us.
Indeed the Dawi of the Brewery have a Grudge Week against the Greenskins we are targeting the gibbering grobi as much as possible. The result for you is less chance of Empire/Dawi conflict.
An excellent example of much greater co-operation is in the Barren Hills we have a common opening move, the Brewery have co-ordinated a mini-concave of light. Between the Empire, Brets, Asur, Dawi, Ogres, Lizard Men & (Vampire Counts - Maybe) each race has specific battle site(s) too target. None of the above mentioned races are targeting Empire settlements or battling each other. With mutual supportive fluff when appropriate.

Wissenlander, can you provide me a link to the inital Dawi/Empire thread you mentioned.

Blackthorn
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on June 20, 2007, 01:00:20 PM
perhaps no aid was send because no aid was asked?

Also Man took stands in first line against chaos and without the help of the dawi we would have fallen into darkness but with us the fate of dawi and all other races of light would have been sealed. I for my part will attack no dawi unless he attacks me first or if he wants to steal away the property of my Emperor.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: FVC on June 20, 2007, 01:08:50 PM
Quote from: Blackthorn on June 20, 2007, 12:42:32 PM
The alliance of Old is one sided, there can be no doubt or question of that. We the Dawi have taken a heavy toll to support the Empire for little gain.

*cackling with laughter*

No disrespect, Sir Blackthorn, and leaving aside all snarky comments (I admit, I enjoy butting in and making them - on that note, I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds, so if it would be better for the Empire if I shut up, say so and I will), that's utter nonsense. I don't mean to challenge the message of your post, and indeed applaud any move towards Empire-dwarf reconciliation, but from a pure academic point of view, that's simply not true.

Rather, in fact, it seems to me that the Empire has paid a heavy toll for the benefit of the dwarfs. The creation of the Empire at the hands of Sigmar was accomplished with major dwarf aid/interference/manipulation (depending on how cynical you are). Like the Wood Elves and the Lady (*spit*), I would think that the creation of a buffer state against Chaos was a motivating factor. It cannot be denied that the birth of the Empire and Sigmar's actions greatly aided the dwarfs.

Quote from: NEB, p. 6-7
Thus when the Dwarfs were once again threatened by the hordes of Orcs and Goblins, King Kurgan despatched the Runesmith Alaric the Mad to seek aid from Sigmar and the race of Men.
[...]
As soon as he heard of the danger to the Dwarfs, Sigmar called a gathering of the chieftains and ordered them to muster their warriors.
[...]
In gratitude for Sigmar's aid in saving the Dwarf realms, King Kurgan...

The impression the NEB gives of the Battle of Black Fire Pass is that Sigmar was doing King Kurgan a favour, marching to defend the Dwarf holds even though the threat to his own land was minimal. This is a questionable interpretation, of course - I do think the nascent Empire had a vested interest in defeating the orcs there - but it looks clear to me that without the aid of Sigmar on that day, the dwarf holds would have been dealt a grievous blow. This may be exaggerating slightly, but after the volcanic eruptions and War of the Beard, the dwarf race was on the edge of doom, and they have Sigmar to thank for holding them back.

For the centuries that follow, the same pattern holds. Though I am not so naive as to say they did so out of altruism, the Empire was a bulwark against orcs, goblins, beastmen, undead, and the forces of Chaos. If the Empire had never united under Sigmar, the dwarf holds would never have been able to stem the tide alone. This is not to belittle the dwarf holds or their achievements, which are mighty and worthy of respect, but simply giving credit where it's due.

There is a pattern here, I think. A pattern of elder races using the realms of man as buffer states. The dwarfs enlist Sigmar and the men of the Empire as allies against orcs and goblins. The Wood Elves of Loren help create the kingdom of Bretonnia for the same reason. The High Elves teach the Empire magic to use them as a shield against Chaos. The lizardmen have been using every single other race as tools in the Old Ones' plans from the very beginning. Forgive me if I sound bitter or angry, but this isn't fair. It's time the elder races acknowledged the achievements of man, and began to ask themselves, 'aren't these humans just as good as us?'. This is why I find dwarf actions in the Nemesis Crown campaign objectionable. You're acting like the Empire, and by extension, all of humanity, cannot be trusted to do the right thing. Over the past millennia of conflict, I think the realms of man have earned the right not to be treated like errant children.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: wissenlander on June 20, 2007, 01:20:45 PM
Gladly Master Blackthorn.  http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/A-Message-From-The-Empire-t17211.html (http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/A-Message-From-The-Empire-t17211.html)

Middle of the page it already starts going bad.  I understand the Dwarf position, but there was mistrust from the beginning.  Take note of page 5 when it is said that our honor meant nothing and we couldn't be trusted.  You have done a fine job at supporting an alliance, but you seemed one of the few.

If you continue to read on, things get pretty hot and in another thread, http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/Warhammer-empire-Vote-t17278.html (http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/Warhammer-empire-Vote-t17278.html) it was stated that we lied when we did no such thing.  I don't ask that you read through everything, Blackthorn.  I don't even want to point fingers and tell you all the times we were pushed away, whether intentional or not.

I've been talking with you guys from the beginning and we've been trying to get some sort of agreement worked out but everytime we'd get close someone would get riled up about something and call us weak or fickle.

If I could take my army and aid you in an assault on Karak Eight Peaks I would, but unfortunately every freaking army in the known world seems to like Imperial villas in the summer.  For that reason, we haven't been able to aid you in the way that you would like, oh besides taking it on the chin in that little SoC thing and the Great War against Chaos and helping in the multiple battles of Black Fire Pass and providing you with food stuffs, etc.

It is not a one sided alliance.  That being said, we still want to keep our ties for the very reasons you mentioned.  If you think you didn't like the way GW set this up, what do you think about us?  Especially when we our offers were rejected rather harshly when we tried our best to meet you halfway.  Enough of that though.

There's no point on blaming each other for this stuff.  We may not be able to fully help one another, but to limit agressions has been something we have coveted from the beginning and I hope that we can still work through the tensions.

Edit* FVC beat me to it again.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Wyzer1 on June 20, 2007, 03:03:54 PM
Even though I enjoy Dwarf bashing, I did get to ally with one yesterday in a sort of mini-mega-game (5500 pts)... He brought out that special character anvil of doom, and we fought against a screaming bell and a 2nd gen slan (and a giant)

Lots of uber guys in there, and our side kicked some ass

The anvil really didn't do too much for the first parts of the game, but in one nice stroke it dealt the final two wounds to a Slann. In one nice lil round of shooting, we shot a Helblaster Volleygun and an Organ gun at the Slann, I rolled a 10 then a Kaboom, and did 4 wounds to it (after his saves), the Organ-gun rolled very well and got 2 wounds total, then the Anvil knocked the remaining two off

So... still don't like Dwarves but having an Anvil on our side is pretty cool
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: cisse on June 20, 2007, 03:34:47 PM
FVC hits the nail on the head (again) I think, when he answers to the claim that the old alliance would be one-sided. Let's face it, alliances are mostly made out of common interest, and that's clearly the case here. An alliance wouldn't last that long if it wasn't for the two partners having solid reasons to continue with it.

As for the anti-dwar feelings some members are having, I can understand where they come from. As Wissenlander said, we were rejected quite harshly at Bugman's when we offered a treaty (I know, I was there too...). Now, we fully understand that GW has set us up against one another in this campaign, but we sure don't like that and we thought the dwarfs would remember our alliance as well. Add to that the resentment that this campaign is again fought in the Empire, and I think it's no wonder that some players get a little irritated.

I still hope, and I think most of us do, that we can avoid any large IC-conflict in any case. But that's also for GW to decide...
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Blackthorn on June 20, 2007, 05:19:46 PM
FVC you will have too forgive me for not answering your post. It would only kill this thread topic, although it would be a good fluffy debate about what gains and losses this alliance has brought – Another time perhaps.

Organising anything with the Empire is always going to be hard with this campaign. The Dawi and 12 other races have no option but to battle in the Empires backyard. However just because we are there does not mean that we should be at each others throats. Here is a rough outline of what I would propose:
1. Empire & Dawi armies minimise conflict as much as possible between our two races.
2. Dawi armies will try not to target Empire settlements. This excludes inns & towers. (Obviously if GW turn round and say the crown is in a Empire town this becomes void for that settlement). ***Edit*** In the event of conflict at a Empire settlement non-combatants will not be harmed, remember the Dawi seek the crown not to enslave the human population.
3. We will find and support mutual fluff objectives – To be defined later.
4. The Orcs must NOT establish a realm/domain/Waaaghh within the Empire.
5.To bu ild on 4, both the Dawi & Empire should target the Orcs as much as possible to ensure they get off to the slowest/worse possible start. (Ruin their win/loss ratio). Since the Orcs, Empire & Dawi are the big three in this campaign, by doing a join attack on Orcs wear possible we put them in the worst possible situation.
6. No Dawi exiles will be harmed in Empire settlements.
7. The crown must not end up in the hands of an evil race.
8. We Dawi have a preference who should win this campaign:
a.   Dawi (Naturally, crown gets destroyed).
b.   Asur (Swap crowns, crown gets destroyed, better Asur/Dawi relations).
c.   Lizard Men (They will destroy the Crown).
d.   Empire (They will debate what to do with the crown and hopefully destroy it).
These are the only possible options open to the Dawi faction, anyone else with the crown is a failure. This being the case if in the final week, the Dawi, Asur or Lizard Men have no chance of winning the campaign but the Empire does. The Dawi will do all that is possible to ensure a Empire win. (The Crown must be destroyed or at least be kept safe until it can be disposed of).

Like I say, only a rough proposal. Please feel free too add or disagree with this.

Blackthorn

Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: wissenlander on June 20, 2007, 05:27:17 PM
A good start Blackthorn.  One thing that should be added in point 2 is that if the Dwarfs do enter a town or settlement, they will not harm civilians who have done nothing to provoke an attack.

Granted, we do understand that GW could make us hate each other in this campaign, but we should do the best we can to not let it happen.  I applaud your efforts.

We don't have a lot of time on this, unfortunately.  We need to have things finalized within a few days before the campaign begins.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on June 20, 2007, 05:32:20 PM
I've noticed a great deal of anti-every-one-else on just about every board.  There's a lot of "I'll rip your heart out and eat it" going around.  Some folk are taking all of this stuff too personally.  The campaign is an extension of the game.  The nicest gamer I know typically fields Orcs or Tomb Kings.  I enjoy the battles, but have no desire to scream "You dirty Orc!" at the guy.  It's just a game after all and sitting across the table is a decent guy.  Every one needs to chill.

The other problem with "I'll rip your heart out and eat it" mentality is that it makes for  booring one dimensional fluff.  This campaign offers lots of opportunity for unusual alliances and, especially between the Empire and the Dwarves, a great deal of ambivalence and soul searching.  A more nuanced approach will lead to much more interesting fluff.

Now if you don't all settle down, "I'll rip your heart out and eat it".
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Tillmann Spyri on June 20, 2007, 05:35:02 PM
Just a point, but 5 could easily backfire. If you target the orcs, either you'll reduce there win loss ratio, ot they'll reduse yours.There's a chance it could knock out both Empire and Dwarfs out of the running. It's still a good plan, but risky as hell.

Oh, and to guy who just posted, yeah, one or two of us have done some unusurall alliances, and explained them in the bargin. It can be a load of fun. :icon_biggrin:
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: wissenlander on June 20, 2007, 05:37:31 PM
Ah, yes.  The orc issue, forgot to talk about that one.  For me, my only semi regular opponent has orcs, so I don't have much of a choice.  But I don't think it would bother anyone to attack orcs cosidering the long standing animosity between us.  This strategy will deal greatly with who your opponent is.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Tostig on June 20, 2007, 06:19:03 PM
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Now if you don't all settle down, "I'll rip your heart out and eat it".
(http://www.spiretech.com/~carter/lj/comments/dethklok-anim0.06sec.gif)?

I'm not really up to making a decent post right now (my brain's ticking over on Pro-plus and not much else), but in my opinion the sort of "Good against Evil in an epic battle for civilisation" fluff we saw in the Storm of Chaos is even more of a cardboard cut-out than the "I'll rip your heart out and eat it" you don't like. Rather, look at the psychology of why individuals, including myself, have reached that conclusion. Personally I feel that the reasoning behind it - a world-view of betrayal, of  perceived oathbreaking and a of avarice and personal greed makes results in a more morally ambiguous and richer, deeper background to the campaign. As I said when the Dwarfs/Dwarves thing came up, I'm not that great a fan of "high fantasy", preferring what you could call "speculative fiction". In many ways I think a bitter, proud to the point of foolish and grim Empire is more in line with the fluff than one which is always seeking the best for all. A bit of friction between the Dwarfs and the Empire is beneficial from my perspective. Which do you find more involving, Gormenghast or The Belgariad?

I freely admit that I took things a bit too personally at times - probably when I put the time and effort into the first approach to Bugman's, and I agree that it's just a game. But as anyone who has ever tried a family game of monopoly, games are exciting and captivating because they play on emotion - after what are excitement and captivation but emotions? Getting into the mood a little isn't anything to be frowned upon. There's a difference between  re-enacting every dice roll like a lobotomised blue shirt and caring about the outcome of a battle.

I suppose I'm just arguing about nothing, since I'm also looking for a more nuanced reason to take part in the campaign - it's just that my idea of nuanced background is the motivations that lead to "I'll rip your heart out and eat it" rather than "I'm going to have to rip your heart out and eat it, but I'd rather we all sat in a circle and eat a smidgen of lembas with the other good races." But to say that two people playing with armies that are abstract representations of concepts that are said to "hate" eachother is a long distance from the two actual players feeling that way towards eachother.

As for the proposal in question, I remember writing:
Quote
we beseech you to not inflict our foolishness upon the innocents of the Empire, and in exchange we shall treat those Dwarf kindred of yours who live within the walls and cities of our dominions with the utmost respect and hospitality. If, by fortune, there is some chance of us coming to a peaceful and mutually beneficial agreement about this bauble, we implore that your aged wisdom will allow you to send word to us at once.
Not that much different from your proposal, is it? Just look how well it went down;-
Quote
I say he's full of pony pucky. Get Franz to turn around, and let us take care of this. Certainly, if we had needed the Empire's help to find the crown we would have asked for it. We would certainly have done this before allowing it to fall into the hands of orcs.
is especially considerate, commendable and courteous.  :mellow:
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Blackthorn on June 20, 2007, 07:07:57 PM
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Just a point, but 5 could easily backfire. If you target the orcs, either you'll reduce there win loss ratio, ot they'll reduse yours.There's a chance it could knock out both Empire and Dwarfs out of the running. It's still a good plan, but risky as hell.

We are aware of this factor, but fortune favours the bold and my axe favours a Orcs head.

Blackthorn
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Rufas the Eccentric on June 20, 2007, 07:25:32 PM
Quote from: Tostig on June 20, 2007, 06:19:03 PM
As for the proposal in question, I remember writing:
Quote
we beseech you to not inflict our foolishness upon the innocents of the Empire, and in exchange we shall treat those Dwarf kindred of yours who live within the walls and cities of our dominions with the utmost respect and hospitality. If, by fortune, there is some chance of us coming to a peaceful and mutually beneficial agreement about this bauble, we implore that your aged wisdom will allow you to send word to us at once.
Not that much different from your proposal, is it? Just look how well it went down;-
Quote
I say he's full of pony pucky. Get Franz to turn around, and let us take care of this. Certainly, if we had needed the Empire's help to find the crown we would have asked for it. We would certainly have done this before allowing it to fall into the hands of orcs.
is especially considerate, commendable and courteous.  :mellow:
Sarcasm right?  OK, sarcasm can be a good thing at times.

As I have said, I've been bouncing to other boards and see much worse all over the place.  Especially at my other semi regular abode, the Brewery.  Clearly incivility breeds incivility.  Representing the Empire, we should strive to be paragons of civility.  This does not mean that we will not rip their hearts out and eat them.  However, there is no reason to hurt their feelings while doing so.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: FVC on June 20, 2007, 11:01:56 PM
Quote from: Blackthorn on June 20, 2007, 05:19:46 PM
FVC you will have too forgive me for not answering your post. It would only kill this thread topic, although it would be a good fluffy debate about what gains and losses this alliance has brought – Another time perhaps.

We could create a new topic in the Electors' Forum to discuss it, couldn't we? It's off topic, but I enjoy a good background debate like that, so if you're up for it, I definitely am.

Quote
8. We Dawi have a preference who should win this campaign:
a.   Dawi (Naturally, crown gets destroyed).
b.   Asur (Swap crowns, crown gets destroyed, better Asur/Dawi relations).
c.   Lizard Men (They will destroy the Crown).
d.   Empire (They will debate what to do with the crown and hopefully destroy it).
These are the only possible options open to the Dawi faction, anyone else with the crown is a failure.

[ambassador mode: on]

Where does that leave Bretonnia, if we chance to obtain the Crown? I notice we're not on the list - is this because we're less trustworthy than the Empire? Or is it a simple oversight? Does the same apply to Wood Elves, whom I believe have spoken to you diplomatically?
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: clausewitz on June 20, 2007, 11:58:23 PM
Quote from: Blackthorn on June 20, 2007, 05:19:46 PM
Organising anything with the Empire is always going to be hard with this campaign. The Dawi and 12 other races have no option but to battle in the Empires backyard. However just because we are there does not mean that we should be at each others throats.
Firstly, thank you Blackthorn for taking this first step in repairing Empire-Dwarf relations.  Harsh words have been used by both sides. Let us hope cooler heads can prevail and avoid any unfortunate consequences.

I think we can all acknowledge that the NC campaign has set both our races in a difficult position.  The Empire I feel particularly so as we find our land once again beset by invading armies.  Nevertheless as players we can appreciate the position that the dwarves as in.

I also think we can all agree that the most important issue is that we do not allow the evil races to benefit from our difficulties.

That said I welcome your proposal.  As Wissenlander says this is a good beginning.
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Here is a rough outline of what I would propose:
1. Empire & Dawi armies minimise conflict as much as possible between our two races.
Agreed.  Every man or dwarf that dies fighting one another is one that can't fight the evil races.
Quote
2. Dawi armies will try not to target Empire settlements. This excludes inns & towers. (Obviously if GW turn round and say the crown is in a Empire town this becomes void for that settlement). ***Edit*** In the event of conflict at a Empire settlement non-combatants will not be harmed, remember the Dawi seek the crown not to enslave the human population.
I am curious why the dwarfs would target Inns in the Empire?  I know the dwarfs have an interest in beer, but why do you want ours?
Quote
3. We will find and support mutual fluff objectives – To be defined later.
Seems like a good idea.
Quote
4. The Orcs must NOT establish a realm/domain/Waaaghh within the Empire.
We certainly don't want that.  Dwarf assistance in preventing that should help persaude some of the reticent Empire generals.
Quote
5.To bu ild on 4, both the Dawi & Empire should target the Orcs as much as possible to ensure they get off to the slowest/worse possible start. (Ruin their win/loss ratio). Since the Orcs, Empire & Dawi are the big three in this campaign, by doing a join attack on Orcs wear possible we put them in the worst possible situation.
Nice idea in theory.  However, I am not convinced that this will be possible, or possible in sufficient numbers to make a difference.  Some people have limited choice of opponents.  Many more are not part of the forum community.  I also think this would be hard to monitor.
Quote
6. No Dawi exiles will be harmed in Empire settlements.
Agreed.  To do otherwise would be thoroughly uncivilised.
Quote
7. The crown must not end up in the hands of an evil race.
We have the same aim.
Quote
8. We Dawi have a preference who should win this campaign:
a.   Dawi (Naturally, crown gets destroyed).
b.   Asur (Swap crowns, crown gets destroyed, better Asur/Dawi relations).
c.   Lizard Men (They will destroy the Crown).
d.   Empire (They will debate what to do with the crown and hopefully destroy it).
These are the only possible options open to the Dawi faction, anyone else with the crown is a failure. This being the case if in the final week, the Dawi, Asur or Lizard Men have no chance of winning the campaign but the Empire does. The Dawi will do all that is possible to ensure a Empire win. (The Crown must be destroyed or at least be kept safe until it can be disposed of).
Again I urge my fellow Imperial generals to see the concillatory points Blackthorn raises here. (Though it is not my concern FVC makes a good point about the Brets and Asrai being lumped in with the evil races.)
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Veldemere on June 21, 2007, 10:21:33 AM
Rufas, so unlike you to preach tolerance, maybe it is time to build a new pyre!

What disturbs me is not that it was written but more the feeling that it needs to be written, there is a significant difference between the players and the game (at least I hope so) it is fine to wish death to the orcs, but absolutely wrong to hold feelings against those who play these armies. I am sure that many here have more than one army anyway and it strikes me a lot of people have a 'good' and an 'evil' army.


Sorry back on topic now-

Blackthorn thanks for your efforts but maybe we need to clarify what is being offered here, initially the approach was for a fluff alliance but your proposals point more to a limited non-agression pact, with clauses that only you are able to break (ie significance of tower / village) this may be what would make people suspicious.

For me I would prefer to start with a straight fluff alliance and then discuss the terms for any limited NAP or the 2 issues will become quickly confused.

I am sure you meant the NAP section of your proposal as a 'sweetener' to the fluff, as our armies should not be fighting, but I think it confuses.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Blackthorn on June 21, 2007, 11:11:36 AM
The reason for attacking inns & towers is to widen our scope of attack. Each region has only 8 battle sites, three of these are held by the Empire. (town, inn or manor & tower). Although at this stage I know of no region where Dawi are attacking a tower. Attacking inns is fluffy for us it’s the beer for the troops; also all inns are located on the road so we gain a tactical advantage by holding one.

With respect to the list of who I would prefer to win. I have only included those races which from a GW point of view will do something similar to the Dawi objective. I.E. Destroy the crown – Remove Alrics folly.
I don’t know what the Brets/Wood Elves or Ogres would do with the crown if they obtain it, GW have not given any indication of what these races would do with the crown – hence I can not include them in the list. Of course this may change once the campaign starts and if this information comes too light.

FVC, we will have to put that debate on hold, that’s one for after the campaign.

All in all there is not that much which divides us, there is much that we can build on.

Mutual Supportive fluff: - On a Global scale.
I: At this stage I would ask that you join with us in the Grudge Week and attack the Orcs where possible. Even if you don’t have an Orc player to battle, include fluff about finding slaughtered Orc warbands with Dawi axes and quarrels stuck in the corpses.
 Example:
“As our army move through the Great forest we are encountering many butchered bands of Orcs, from the signs of the conflict we have determined that this is the work of the Dawi “
II: Include fluff about our Ranger regiments moving freely and easily through the forests. We want to get the forestry ability back for rangers. (Having a scout regiment moving at half speed in woods –sucks, especially when your movement is 3.) 
Example.:
“Our Huntsmen have been tracking Dawi ranger regiments, great difficulty have they had in keeping pace with the swift and free moving regiments as they easily traverse the terrain.”
III: Raise the profile of the Hunters of Sigmar.
Example.:
“Dawi rangers report back, they have been tracking a large number of Empire knights. A rag tag Order going by the name of the Hunters of Sigmar, are fanatical in their searching for the chaos tainted. When and where possible they give battle with the warped ones.”

Once again if you don’t like, agree or want to add something else, please comment.

This can be further developed for a region bases.

Blackthorn
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Veldemere on June 21, 2007, 11:21:29 AM
For me that seems absolutely fine, I have no orc opponents but will include the fluff.

I hope this can be agreed and swiftly so we can progress from here to see what further agreements can be made.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: wissenlander on June 21, 2007, 12:05:07 PM
It does sound good.  If you have any more issues that you would like us to highlight, feel free to propose them.  Don't you guys have something going about the Royal Gryocopter Squadron as well?
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: FVC on June 21, 2007, 12:26:08 PM
Quote from: Blackthorn on June 21, 2007, 11:11:36 AM
I don’t know what the Brets/Wood Elves or Ogres would do with the crown if they obtain it, GW have not given any indication of what these races would do with the crown – hence I can not include them in the list. Of course this may change once the campaign starts and if this information comes too light.

We've been saying we'd give to the Fay Enchantress all along, you know. No, that's not in GW background, but the idea of dwarfs destroying it isn't in GW background either (indeed, one might argue GW's portrayal suggests that the dwarfs would resist destroying it, as it is a priceless runic artifact, and that they only intend to lock it up), so it does strike me as a slight double standard. In any case, do you really think GW would have Bretonnia do something evil with the Crown? This is Bretonnia we're talking about - more stereotypical heroes I cannot imagine!

Quote
FVC, we will have to put that debate on hold, that’s one for after the campaign.

Bah, grumble grumble... debates like that are half the fun of the campaign. Okay then. I will track you down once the campaign ends and challenge you to that debate. I'll put it in my sig here to remind me. You're not weaselling out of this!
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Ostermarker on June 21, 2007, 03:26:25 PM
I don't see why you'd attack the inns though. A Dwarf would most likely go to an inn and just make a deal with the barkeep, or say that the building was built by his ancestors (or relatives certainly) and demand some sort of beer payment.

Right, Mutual supportive fluff:

I: I'll probably mention the dead Greenskins, but I doubt any of my soldiers know the difference between a dwarven bolt and a human one, and my General would use this to boost morale by saying: Look what the Empire's done to these orcs!

II: Ooh, you want better units, Mister Reliable-War-Machines? Ok, maybe a bit harsh, but I doubt this would work, considering WE LIVE HERE! Most of the hunters, militia and some of the State Troops will have been brought up in this region, and will know all the shortcuts, and would be faster. However, it could be said:
"As we approached the <insert evil lair sounding name here> we met a group of Dwarven Rangers, they had arrived at the same time as our Huntsmen, and they communicated much helpful intelligence."

III: It may be a good idea that, if you have Heavy Cav from DoW, that they are Hunters of Sigmar, who fight Chaos. In fact, mention them coming to help you if your facing "evil" races. Why didn't a certain unit appear thoughout the game, they were fighting the Hunters, etc.

Personally, I'd like some kind of attack on the Wasteland mentioned, but I've been working on this with the Elves and the Brets in our negotiations. :biggriin: Maybe even Marienburg?
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Blackthorn on June 22, 2007, 10:42:48 PM
Wissenlander can you post me plans for the following:

Reik Marches
Great Confluence
Howling Heights

It's for the carving up of these regions. Once I have the necessary information, we can see what regional common ground we have and build on that.

On a personal note, a thanks for the co-ordeal hospitality you have shown.

I will take what we have discussed here and put it before the Brewery so that they can say no and ruin all of my work.  :icon_eek:

This is the close of phase 1. We need to embark on phase 2, regional supportive fluff.  :icon_biggrin:


Blackthorn.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Ostermarker on June 23, 2007, 09:26:51 AM
Just been looking on the NC site. Under the Dwarfs section their objective is:

"Thorgrim seeks to recover the Nemesis Crown and lock it away deep beneath Karaz-a-Karak"

Right, I don't see destroy. Now, this annoys me, because it stinks of hypocrisy. Burman's Brewery wouldn't ally with us (and interfered in our other negotiations) becuase it was in the NC fluff. But you want to destroy (and won't allow ny other outcome) when this IS against the NC fluff. *sighs*

Sorry, that may have seemed rude and harsh, but I've just looked at it, I'm tired, and it's a spur of the moment thing.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: FVC on June 23, 2007, 01:05:58 PM
Y'know, Ostermarker, that exact point came up in an argument with a Bret knight I had over on the RToB. He claimed that the Empire's 'council of the wise' plan was too much a departure from the word of GW, and consequently that they should not be trusted. Yet it seems to me -

GW's stated Empire goal - Karl Franz wants to find the Crown, study it, and if it is proven safe use it for the good of the Empire.
W-E's goal - hold a Council of the Wise to learn as much about the Crown as possible and decide what to do with it.

GW's stated dwarf goal - Thorgrim wants to find the Crown and lock it up in a deep dungeon below Karaz-a-Karak.
Bugman's Brewery's goal - hold a Council of the Wise and Powerful to decide how to destroy the Crown.

W-E's goal seems pretty compatible with GW's statement, and is really the logical extension of what Karl Franz wanted to do. It's in character and reasonably logical. (Incidentally, this is what we were aiming for with Bretonnia - to broadly harmonise with GW while adding and changing details.) BB's goal looks to directly contradict GW's statement. When it comes to ignoring GW background, it looks to me as if the dwarfs are far greater offenders.

But then again, let's not turn this into a dwarf-bashing thread. There's been quite enough of that already. Regardless of how great/rotten the dwarfs are, cooperation can only benefit the Empire. Focus on that.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Ostermarker on June 23, 2007, 02:56:34 PM
I know that the Empire (IC) has to get as much co-operation with the other races, but (and this is quite a big but) I think that the dwarf online community has laid down double standards in this matter.

IC, my general, if he knew of this, would be bursting at the hypocrisy shown and be yelling and bawling at any (non-Imperial) dwarfs. These match my sentiments on hypocrisy, it's bad, hypocrites usually fit into the: "Do as I say, not as I do" section, like the Bugman's and Henry the Eighth.

I know that this shouldn't be a dwarf-bashing thread (I think we've got one somewhere else :biggriin:), but I think that they deserve it due to the way they've treated W-E ambassadors, and not just the ones to Bugman's, most times we've gone to someone to ask for alliances, then they (particularly Daft) have popped up and said:
"Oh, don't ally with them, they won't destroy it, they're weak, we're strong, ally with us"

The extreme anti-Empire sentiments which have come out from Bugman's warrant such insults, in my opinion. And if they can't take, they should give:

Do onto others as you would have them do onto you.
Judge not, lest ye be judged.
etc.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Tillmann Spyri on June 23, 2007, 04:49:00 PM
Hmm. I've been thinking, and this raises an interesting question.

The dwarfs don't want the crown destroyed. Why? because , for all it's evil, it is a perfect etching of the greatest rune, of the greatest runesmith who ever lived. How could a race that thrives on their history destroy such an important part of it? Indeed, Thorgrim may well end up looking at it from time to time...

So, who is more likely to be corrupted? The Empire, who don't know what it is? Or the Dwarfs, who do, but won't destroy it? On fluff terms, there's a strong case for the dwarfs being the bad guys in this equasion.
Title: Re: Sob *** Not Quite Treachery ***
Post by: Jerok on June 23, 2007, 08:10:34 PM
Right, i'm not seeing an real point to this thread, so i'll lock it. Message me if you want it open for a GOOD reason.....