Warhammer-Empire.com
Between the Battles & the Art ... => The Count's Tavern => Topic started by: Finlay on March 15, 2017, 09:24:00 PM
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Jumping the shark. (if they haven't already)
Squat devastator squad
(https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GAMA-KO-GrundstokThunderers-Content.jpg)
Flying terminator lord with storm bolter and chainsword:
(https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GAMA-KO-BrokkGrungsson-Content.jpg)
??
(https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/GAMA-KO-Skyriggers-Content.jpg)
More pics of the squat reboot latest AoS release here.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/03/15/a-new-race-descends-on-the-mortal-realms/
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Jumping the shark. (if they haven't already)
The normal fellows, called Arkanaut Company in the pic text, look just as prime for Squat conversion.
Mr. Monopoly Dwarf though is simply ridiculous.
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AoS is a basket-case.
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Mr. Monopoly Dwarf
:icon_biggrin:
The airships are not too bad, as is the tunneling squad.
All in all though it's the usual clunky, tasteless, overdone AoS-nonsense. The wargaming equivalent of a steroid-infused orange gym freak wearing a Calvin Klein wifebeater, a reverse baseball cap and fake Gucci sunglasses, driving through town in his pimped up Cadillac Eldorado with Pitbull blasting from the stereo.
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:icon_biggrin:
The airships are not too bad, as is the tunneling squad.
I think the one group is more a boarding party not many sky tunnels after all. The airships, at least hull wise, are not so bad to which I will agree. The Ironclad has promise as a WHFB Nautlis, though most likely not worth the dollars.
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I think the one group is more a boarding party not many sky tunnels after all.
Fair point, got my clichés mixed up.
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Yeh the airships are pretty nice airships, and don't look like 40k models.
But the rest is just, yeesh.
Even setting aside my "traditionalist" view of warhammer, the models would be bad for an established more bombastic universe.
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I'm think about buying one of those airships for the 9th age dwarfs.
The other figures are ready to reinforce my squats in 40K.
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Surprisingly to me, these minis look really cool. I like 'em a lot, but then again I am a sucker for everything steampunky, so...
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I also quite like the airships!
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:icon_eek:
Wait, this is GW's new version of dwarfs?
Or are they really for 40K?
Either way, eeek!
Glad I'm not a dwarf player.
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3rd version of dwarfs. The other two are Fyreslayers and the regular Dispossessed ones.
Earth, wind and fire. :wink:
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Fyreslayers, oh right, so these must be squats.
It's a complete move away from Tolkien style dwarfs.
They remind me of the Stormcrud castaways. Guess they'll fit right in with the ... new world.
I must be getting old. :icon_lol:
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I love these.
You can use them as awesome Time Bandit style Airship Dwarves or you can turn them into squats with no real effort other than some weapon swaps.
AOS is not Fantasy. Thats for sure!
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:icon_lol: Not going to need coffee this morning!
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You can use them as awesome Time Bandit style Airship Dwarves
Hmmm that mean their foes are going to be Goblins Grots riding in ships worn on the heads of Giants Gargants?
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Surprisingly to me, these minis look really cool. I like 'em a lot, but then again I am a sucker for everything steampunky, so...
They're not steampunk to me, aside form the airships themselves- which are the only models which would look out of place in a 40k game.
Airships are also supported in the fantasy fluff (rip), so maybe that's why my brain is allowing me to like them more. I could actually see using one if I slightly toned down the futuristic stuff in my dwarf army.
my vision of steampunk is more clockwork/steampowered whatever tech, attached to a still fantasy world. Not literally small space marines with beards.
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Well ... this was to be expected. I'm actually quite excited to see how bad they will mess up the human faction(s). I'm ready for a good rant/laugh.
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The models on foot are not too bad (considering AoS standards) and the ships actually look better than the old gyrocopters, I think. But those flying models are ridiculous, especially the flying lord (aka mr. monopoly dwarf). They actually gave him a top hat and a monocle :icon_eek:!
Also, I probably need to start buying more of the old dwarves to complete my collection, before they're replaced by these new guys.
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They just so don't look like ... ah, that's because they aren't!
The faces looks like masks/helmets, and maybe that is what they are intended to be.
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They're covered up because the skies they live in are filled with toxic gas and magic that'd burn their faces off. Just fyi. :wink:
@Demonslayer,
The Steamheads won't replace the Dispossessed dwarfs as they are a established race in the lore. They will eventually upgrade the pre-8th older models but they're not getting taken over by a sub-faction.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hX_uI_Bpyec/WIUdQQ3A5lI/AAAAAAAACRc/tEifHGEwCKIGEt3HIgALi052gNULjM1JgCPcB/s1600/Warhammer%2Bage%2Bof%2Bsigmar%2Bartwork%2Billustration%2Bart%2Bdisciples%2Bof%2Btzeentch%2Bbattletome%2B14.jpg
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Good to know, thanks!
The new dwarf models (not counting the dwarves hanging from their steel balls) look interesting enough to start a small collection of them someday, but I do want to finish up my regular dwarves first!
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But, but, aren't dwarves suppose to have some sort of natural ability to handle magic?
(GP ... this is the world of W:AoS!)
Oh, right. Ok then, why toxic gases?
No matter what, they still remind me of the Stormcrud acoustics, uhhh ... castaways, uhhh ... eclipticals, uhhh ... whatever.
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Dwarfs aren't immune to magic. They resist it, if they go into the chaos wastes as they did in the Gotrek and Felix novels they still mutate and die.
The toxic gases are because it's the realm of metal and thus is filled with precious minerals and toxic metals like rivers of mercury. (I like that part because it always reminds me of a chinese emperor who though mercury was the key to prolonged life and had small ponds and rivers of it under his palace, he didn't last long. :icon_razz: )
Good to know, thanks!
The new dwarf models (not counting the dwarves hanging from their steel balls) look interesting enough to start a small collection of them someday, but I do want to finish up my regular dwarves first!
No problem! There's alot of good stuff for the old factions that people keep disregarding because they're not "new". AoS' planning stages were back in 2012 so everything in 8th was planned on for continuation in AoS.
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Baron ... you are a gentleman and a scholar. :icon_cool: :::cheers:::
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I try. :smile2: :::cheers:::
I do wish Cathay had gotten more focus in the past. Chinese history is so insane with bits of epicness mixed in that it would've fit perfectly as a spotlight nation in Warhammer.
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Just don't give them any ideas about Chinese dwarfs! :icon_wink:
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Just don't give them any ideas about Chinese dwarfs! :icon_wink:
Paint Terracotta and no faces would be the answer
Though honestly I remember an old tale from the late 90's is that GW though about doing an eastern faction of human at the time DoW came out but they couldn't get figures the liked and never thought on the subject again. Also a very sweet Nippon Samurai was entered in a Golden Daemon and should have one but GW's had a rule if they had not had a 'modern take on it an artist interpretation was not eligible.
In my ideal world of WHFB books there would be a "men of the East" book covering Cathay, Nippon, Ind, Kuresh, and such for a whole gamut of eastern races and through Hung on top as an allied contingent. Not something I've the knowledge to do but what I would like.
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AOS is truly nothing at all like Fantasy. Fantasy is long gone now.
GW was cruel to kill it, but AOS is selling at a terrific pace so they had the right idea from that perspective.
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AOS is truly nothing at all like Fantasy. Fantasy is long gone now.
GW was cruel to kill it, but AOS is selling at a terrific pace so they had the right idea from that perspective.
Can you keep this sort of talk in the AoS forum, I posted this here instead of complaining too much over there so as not too annoy the people who like AoS.
::heretic:: ::heretic::
Don't trigger me bro!
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:icon_lol: :icon_lol:
Don't go over there, it's dark inside!
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I'm fine with people liking it (obviously), and glad it's selling well and agree they did need to change something from a business point of view.
but it's just not for me.
I'm hoping for good things from an epic or bfg reboot
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I was hoping for a WFB reboot, but with golden angels in armor selling faster than a herd of hopping hares, hope is dwindling.
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I was hoping for a WFB reboot, but with golden angels in armor selling faster than a herd of hopping hares, hope is dwindling.
If AoS had failed, I think they'd have just cut it and focused on 40k, specialist games and selling IP for games.
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Not a fan of AoS, or the new Slayer (Fyre?) models, but these look quite cool. A friend uses Titanforge blips as Gyrocopters and the idea is rather similar.
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I was hoping for a WFB reboot, but with golden angels in armor selling faster than a herd of hopping hares, hope is dwindling.
If AoS had failed, I think they'd have just cut it and focused on 40k, specialist games and selling IP for games.
Yep, seems unlikely they'll return to the WFB world anytime too soon.
To think they had the desire to kill off an entire world, actually did, and in essence create a new one, one that has fluff about as interesting as a sand grain in the desert. At least the Olde World had story and place and character. And frankly, still can.
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At least we have TW: Warhammer. It's the best thing that happened to Warhammer in years.
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AOS is truly nothing at all like Fantasy. Fantasy is long gone now.
GW was cruel to kill it, but AOS is selling at a terrific pace so they had the right idea from that perspective.
Can you keep this sort of talk in the AoS forum, I posted this here instead of complaining too much over there so as not too annoy the people who like AoS.
::heretic:: ::heretic::
Don't trigger me bro!
I am so out of the loop in terms of the actual friend interest or opinion on AOS! Not intentionally trying to trigger anyone! I am just saying GW did the right thing financially by killing Fantasy (which was hemorrhaging money) and bringing forth something that is new to try to get a new avenue for sales. It appears to have worked given their financial successes these last two years.
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I am just saying GW did the right thing financially by killing Fantasy (which was hemorrhaging money) and bringing forth something that is new to try to get a new avenue for sales. It appears to have worked given their financial successes these last two years.
But that wasn't even the situation, WFB was profitable but not at the levels they wanted. On the later I think it very well may be a correlation doesn't equal causation, I think the largest boon for GW in the last few years was the much wider scope of IP licensing for video games.
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That didn't appear to be what their financials were showing. Their model sales have sky rocketed to this point.
As far as profitability, I guess it depends on what you are looking for. We know fantasy sales were plummeting compared to 40k. End Times might have changed that a bit, but everything I have read shows AOS to be a much more profitable line combined with a huge increase in 40k sales. Specialist games are also reaping big sales.
I'll see if I can find the financials. They itemize this stuff out pretty well. I hadn't thought licensing was really growing by any appreciable amount.
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I put a report earlier:
So an operating profit for 2016 of
£16.86m + £13.8m = £30,66? That is CRAZY good!
Someone posted this:
-------Income Statement - 31 May '15 - 1 Jun '14 - 2 Jun '13 - 3 Jun '12 - 29 May '11
--Operating Profit / Loss - 16.48 -------- 12.3 ------- 21.25 ------ 19.14 ------ 15.24
Even if you factor in several million in currency profit, that is still more than any of the the last five years.
It appears listening to your customers does pay off, who knew :D
It's also good to note that someone calculated the combined royalties (Total War Warhammer, Vermintide, etc) and they only made up 1/6 of GW's profit. The rest was all tabletop. :-D [/Quote]
There's also a miniature popularity report that put AoS in 4th place with X-wing, 40k and Warmachine in front of it last fall. (Busy right now but I'll edit in the source later.)
As for a BFG reboot:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/720884.page
Just don't give them any ideas about Chinese dwarfs! :icon_wink:
Aren't dwarfs basically chinese already?
-Big advanced empire that falls to barbarian hordes.
-first users of gunpowder and repeater crossbows. ("Time of Legends" had them introduce them to Malekith and the Dark elves)
-Marked their history by building gargantuan structures.
Anyway, I actually suggested Cathy undead. :biggriin:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/718136.page
At least we have TW: Warhammer. It's the best thing that happened to Warhammer in years.
Agreed! :::cheers:::
Edit: here's that report. http://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/36971/top-5-non-collectible-miniature-games-fall-2016
Hopefully 8th edition 40k can finally win it's spot back from X-wing.
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I was hoping for a WFB reboot, but with golden angels in armor selling faster than a herd of hopping hares, hope is dwindling.
If AoS had failed, I think they'd have just cut it and focused on 40k, specialist games and selling IP for games.
That sort of is what they seem to be doing. I don't know how AoS is doing, as all of the fantasy groups/clubs here have split for either KoW, 9th Age, or 40k -- or some combination. These really seem aimed at a... "we're not going to make Squat minis... but... here's some AoS minis. Really. Not squats at all." :wink:
AOS is truly nothing at all like Fantasy. Fantasy is long gone now.
GW was cruel to kill it, but AOS is selling at a terrific pace so they had the right idea from that perspective.
Can you keep this sort of talk in the AoS forum, I posted this here instead of complaining too much over there so as not too annoy the people who like AoS.
::heretic:: ::heretic::
Don't trigger me bro!
I thought the forum was going to stay kind of neutral? If you can't handle the trigger, maybe you should look for some sort of safe space. :wink:
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All this talk about AoS triggers me too. I need to go play some Warhammer Total War.
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I dont get AoS. The fluff isn't appealing. The ruleset isn't appealing.
The models are interesting. If they had considered opening up WHFB like this, rather than using a whole new game system, i would probably have been fine enough with it.
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It might help you in understanding it to remember that the current leadership of GW inherited AoS when it was failing due to the follies of the previous leadership, and scrambled to make the best of it. Like a platypus that evolved through many steps that were all plausible in their specific context, but in total produced a chimeric weirdo.
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I dont get AoS. The fluff isn't appealing. The ruleset isn't appealing.
The models are interesting. If they had considered opening up WHFB like this, rather than using a whole new game system, i would probably have been fine enough with it.
I like some of the new models, like most of the Kharadrons (even Mr. monopoly dwarf is kinda growing on me, in a so-ridiculous-its-funny kinda way) and the Sylvaneth units... Stormcast Eternals, not so much.
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It is all in the IP I guess.
I love the classic fantasy and now GW makes sure no one does it anymore. After all, they would not want serious competition.
Basically, the old gamers I know are still holding on to the old stock. They go old edition, 9th Age or KoW.
I have no time to keep up anymore, really. I liked the ability to customize your hero to be different and unique in the very game. Not simply in terms of fluff. Like his or her special taste made its mark on the tabletop.
All that is gone unless you go the 9th Age route.
AoS is fast food gaming. No need for considering why your hero would have a certain magic sword or ring. Because you do not get any choice.
KoW is probably good and I am slowly converting my units for it. But it is also blocky. All is standardized. you have 10, 20 or 40 lads in a unit. And that is it. You can give magic items, one to each unit. But the heroes can also only take a single item. Cool but not really WHFB.
But it seems that will be my future mass combat anyway. KoW.
My son expressed love for those... dwarfthings... I told him they were AoS. I fear I will have to get into AoS anyway. Well, it is cheap at least. I gto minis enough. But I guess he will have the edge over my old stuff.
For crying out loud I loved the old elves! I do not want new twisted things that are not fantasy looking... But what does a dad do? I will go Frostblade with the girlfriend. At least there are no ironpumpkin dwarfs with weird backstories...
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So I see some of the fluff has leaked as well. Barak Nar being the largest skyhold gets one of the biggest eye rolls ever.
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Barak-Varr means Sea-gate and their homes are all Ports so it's been pointed out as just a example of languages changing over time. The Overlord runes are also slightly different than the traditional runes so it's likely just their culture to be "off" from regular dwarfs. (Kinda like America and Great Britain. :laugh:)
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It's also good to note that someone calculated the combined royalties (Total War Warhammer, Vermintide, etc) and they only made up 1/6 of GW's profit. The rest was all tabletop. :-D
1/6 of GW's profit is 16.66% in business that is quite a bit. No company would want to not have that much of their profit.
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Indeed it is, that's why they keep giving out their IP to improve it and work to make sure they stay true to the franchise.
That part's really just to disprove the rumors that the majority of GW's gain comes from the videogames. The big profit they got in 2015 was a one-time shot in the arm that helped GW with the fortune they sunk into buying new machinery. (That's why the Tzeentch releases onward are so impressive)
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Barak-Varr means Sea-gate and their homes are all Ports so it's been pointed out as just a example of languages changing over time. The Overlord runes are also slightly different than the traditional runes so it's likely just their culture to be "off" from regular dwarfs. (Kinda like America and Great Britain. :laugh:)
Barak Nar is East Gate or Sunrise Gate rendered from Khazlid into english, fine but purple and white are also the more recent colors attributed to Barak Varr. The fluff for AoS stuff I just can't get into and I find few redeeming qualities, add on to that phonetic and color lifting of things from a setting I do enjoy and the eye rolling commences in earnest.
Indeed it is, that's why they keep giving out their IP to improve it and work to make sure they stay true to the franchise.
I'd argue they largely don't care as much as they used to for better or worse though. Old GW was entirely too tight when it came to video games and the meddled incessantly but those titles, at least on the Warhammer end, still have things I liked about them despite their faults (Mark of Chaos for example). In recent years they seem to have gone with whatever as long as someone ponies up the cash which while generally god on some fronts (Mordheim is amazing) many of the 40k games are slip shod piles of crap hoping people will buy in on name alone.
That part's really just to disprove the rumors that the majority of GW's gain comes from the videogames.
If we could see the trending numbers from the last 5 or so years that show the amount GW has gone the license road I think would do better than a single years small sample size.
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Indeed it is, that's why they keep giving out their IP to improve it and work to make sure they stay true to the franchise.
That part's really just to disprove the rumors that the majority of GW's gain comes from the videogames.
I didn't get that from what was written previously.
And I'm uncertain as to what this is all about as well ...
The big profit they got in 2015 was a one-time shot in the arm that helped GW with the fortune they sunk into buying new machinery. (That's why the Tzeentch releases onward are so impressive)
And which is it Barak Varr or Barak Nar? The first seems in reference to the Olde World, while the second I'm clueless on currently.
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It's also good to note that someone calculated the combined royalties (Total War Warhammer, Vermintide, etc) and they only made up 1/6 of GW's profit. The rest was all tabletop. :-D
1/6 of GW's profit is 16.66% in business that is quite a bit. No company would want to not have that much of their profit.
Wasn't that long ago though that most of their actual profit was from licensing their IP out. Good to see they have turned their model line around.
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The fluff for AoS stuff I just can't get into and I find few redeeming qualities, add on to that phonetic and color lifting of things from a setting I do enjoy and the eye rolling commences in earnest.
Ah, well that's understandable. :-)
I didn't get that from what was written previously.
And I'm uncertain as to what this is all about as well ...
Oh, sorry, side-effect from my time on forums where every detail turns into a full-scale debate. I'm afraid I've gotten a tad defensive on things. :-P
And which is it Barak Varr or Barak Nar? The first seems in reference to the Olde World, while the second I'm clueless on currently.
Barak Nar is the main port/home of the new dwarf faction. The fact it sounds like Barak Varr is what has some people rolling their eyes at it.
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Ah, well that's understandable. :-)
Look you are a positive voice in this community towards a game some of us detest, and I madly appreciate you for that. Your youthful enthusiasm keeps this place alive and I would hate for a day I sat in the darkness with only others going haarumph at the current state of the GW world, but we old haarumphers have lost alot. The "End Times" was not only a campaign but a sickening demystification of a story that certain parts were best left mystified further with the introduction of the new AoS setting, which completely lacks the draw that I think brought a good number of the fluff purist about which is a low fantasy verisimilitude (a word I love that Fidelis uses ever so often).
Nothing in this new setting is good since to me it lacks the key component which is the supposed 'enemy within' both imagined and otherwise. One of the best parts of old Warhammer fluff is Felix talking to an apothecary about evil may eat itself and that those mutants cursed by warpstone may not be evil at all but driven that way by societal factors. It aims squarely at phrases out of Tolkien when they see the dead Harad guy and we go on about was he 'truly evil at heart and what lies brought him there' this is the fantasy I like not Skeletor vs He Man bullshit which AoS seems to purvey. Black v White is childish bullshit which may be great in its 'epicness' to some but destroys the idea the setting was and that of the whole game company.
That might even be the saddest part still, where once there was a time a huge game company that might embrace the paradoxes of misanthropy with humanism and make a solid world out of it. Yet all we are left with is golden super men fighting and dieing in some sort of nihilistic struggle for nothing and losing their souls bit by bit to do it, fuck WHFB was bleak but not that bleak.
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Oh, good rant. :eusa_clap:
I wasn't trying to dissuade you or anything, you're fully in your right to dislike this setting and love the old one. I loved Wfb too(still do, though some of the fandom has made it sour a bit) and have been a big fan since 2008. I remember you were actually the first person to respond to my first post here. :-)
I wish i could say something to help you but I can't other than at least you have your friends here (like me) and we have our memories of happier times.
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Oh, good rant. :eusa_clap:
Come on now, I'm only through half a bottle of B&B just wait for the rant that would come after, that one may be applause worthy.
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Uh oh. :ph34r:
Edit: Oh, if you'd like to take some strolls down memory lane I'd suggest lurking at the Total War forum. Those lads dig up the craziest stuff to justify it being added to the game. :-D
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/190542/lets-talk-cathey-araby-and-nippon
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I appreciate the different insight you bring Baron.
I am not closed to the fluff. Seeing things in a different existence is interesting. To me it doesn't replace the old world, it is separate. But i understand the old world is now dead. That does sadden me. But it also fills me with more of a desire to do my own world building instead.
It is too bleak in some areas, however there will be an endless supply of sigmarines, even though they make it sound like its finite. So it feels bleak, but in reality is actually hollow. Same with space marines really.
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Haha, happy to hear my insight is appreciated. :laugh:
If you want to get technical then everything's in infinite supply, just like in old fantasy. (Even before Gav's "as many elves as the plot demands". :-P ) The main point is despite that there's innocent people in danger, lands to be explored/saved/conquered and plots to be solved.
I fully support doing your own world building, alot more creativity and resolved plots that make sense. Main reason fan-works beat out stuff made by companies. :-D
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Klatz. Were can one find all the fluff about the aelves gathered? That is sort of all I reallly care about at this moment. The one thing I hope can save me to like the new setting and make me explore it a bit.
I am fearing that all this with wood elves being wanderers and keeping their minis is just a devious ruse from GW side. I want reassurances that the WE will remain the same.
But they already removed my beloved Wardancers :-(
No, the free get-you-by lists do not count. They are just there to suck you in. And I feel the lists in Grand alliance: Order shows the many favourites are dead, otherwise there would be wardancers there.
Maybe I am too paranoid and bleak
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I was completely unaware that there was so much animosity towards AOS on here!
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It's actually quite tame compared to some other places. S.O.F's rant was the closest thing to what one might get compared the more hostile sites.
Klatz. Were can one find all the fluff about the aelves gathered? That is sort of all I reallly care about at this moment. The one thing I hope can save me to like the new setting and make me explore it a bit.
Unfortunately there's no good lore collection of them even at the grand alliance forum. It's all in bits and pieces throughout the books but mostly just mentions of them while the fluff from Spire of Dawn/island of blood and Shadows over Hammerhal are the most direct. Then there's the short story "Pantheon" which finally gives us a look at Teclis.
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Late to the party, but I'm seriously tempted to turn these guys into Squats for 30K - already rules for them and plenty of conversion opportunities.
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The big profit they got in 2015 was a one-time shot in the arm that helped GW with the fortune they sunk into buying new machinery. (That's why the Tzeentch releases onward are so impressive)
huh.
Their ability to make these "impressive" models has been a direct turn off for me. Didn't realise I could blame the 2015 machinery!
I was completely unaware that there was so much animosity towards AOS on here!
lolwut.
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I was completely unaware that there was so much animosity towards AOS on here!
Bad rolls on everyone's animosity test?
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huh.
Their ability to make these "impressive" models has been a direct turn off for me. Didn't realise I could blame the 2015 machinery!
Even the Tzeentch stuff? :Ohmy:
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The big profit they got in 2015 was a one-time shot in the arm that helped GW with the fortune they sunk into buying new machinery. (That's why the Tzeentch releases onward are so impressive)
huh.
Their ability to make these "impressive" models has been a direct turn off for me. Didn't realise I could blame the 2015 machinery!
Seriously, you don't think the quality of the AOS and 40k lines are improved and impressive?
I was completely unaware that there was so much animosity towards AOS on here!
lolwut.
Keep in mind, I only go to the Back Table, Count's Tavern, 40k board, and occasionally the Admin boards. I haven't looked in the Fantasy boards in at least 5 years.
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I think AutoCad is great for manufactured surfaces, edges, spikes etc. It's surprisingly poor for organic surfaces, which are no better than 15-20 yrs old hand-sculpted surfaces. Empire artillery wheels had finer wood grain than the present sculpts. Empire puff had more organic detail in the 5th-6th eds than the most recent Greatswords. If that was doable in plastic back in the time, it should be twice as doable today. Indeed the last Perry sculpt, the Empire Captain, had something of it.
But that's not what GW does now.
It's a question of what GW aims to do well and what it doesn't appreciate at all. It's a matter of taste.
I wouldn't wonder that the new AoS aesthetics do not find many supporters among the older guard "Empirists". It's a whole different world! (And I'm not speaking of 40K here, since I know very little about that game & world & minis beyond Rogue Trader and Necromunda.)
It's always good to have variety, and GW does give an option. Indeed, the new techno-dwarves look good in the sense of what they aim to be, and give something no other company does. I just don't have a context for them. Maybe I will eventually, who knows.
For my part, I've practically stopped looking for what GW does these days. They're not my manufacturer, I'm looking entirely elsewhere for my fun. Either back in time, and/or at other manufacturers. But that shouldn't be away from people who like what GW does. There are more mini-producers than ever, so everyone should be that much more happier. I am, for one. The mini-scene is thriving, and that's the most important thing. :)
-Z
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Z that's me exactly, I'm playing and buying more than ever, but none from gw.
Philly, technically the sculpts are an accomplishment. Don't like the models, though. Aside from the ad Mech which i loved so much j bought an entire army.
Doesn't mean i like the models.
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Seriously, you don't think the quality of the AOS and 40k lines are improved and impressive?
I think Zygmund nailed quite a few points aimed at this because really what is the quality improved and 'impressivized' more than? Sure lots of big center piece kits are nice, and almost all kits have some good bits, but none of the rank and file kits are all that impressive compared to even things as old as that first Soldiers of the Empire box.
Of models of the era, having begun to dabble in Wood Elves, the Treeman kit is great and those AoS not Dryads have potential (ie chuck the half elf bit green stuff in more bark and throw a Dryad head on for a more impressive old style 'defensive aspect' Dryad) but the things like the Eternal Guard dreadful. As AoS itself has not offered much to anyone that didn't play Chaos or fall in love with Sigmarines kits comparison is rather limited. The diaper Dwarfs for instance has the nice dragon thing and the characters are rather good but the rank and file age are pretty dreadful. These new Dwarfs look the most competent throughout (save Mr Monopoly and the Luftballoon squad) but are the most divergent of what a good number of 'fantasy' players were looking for, great 30k Squats though.
Basically I'm saying the last great rank and file plastic box I can think of was the Empire Archers, since that time I can think of few that build straight from the box offer so much.
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Z that's me exactly, I'm playing and buying more than ever, but none from gw.
Philly, technically the sculpts are an accomplishment. Don't like the models, though. Aside from the ad Mech which i loved so much j bought an entire army.
Doesn't mean i like the models.
I think the ork models are terrific (though the old ones weren't bad). All but one or two models in the current ork line use the CAD design process and they look really nice.
I totally get people's love for the Bedford design aesthetic, I enjoyed it too. And I get what people are saying in regards to the shift in style that came with it, but I don't think its the fault of the process that the organic approach has been lost. It is a conscious choice. They've been shifting to this new design for over 10 years.
Having said all that, the Tzeentch models and newer 40k models are absolutely incredible. The Deathwatch models and Cypher are the best space marine models GW has ever produced.
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I dont think anyone is arguing about the 40k models...
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We were higher up regarding the improvements to models since GW bought new equipment.
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Almost all GW (Fantasy) models since 2007/2008 look too artificial and over the top for my liking. You only have to compare the faces of Empire plastic miniatures from the 5th(!!) edition to those of today: the old ones had very fine details considering the scale (eyes, small wrinkles, wisps of hair, teeth, tongues .. eveything - each head/face was also unique), while the new ones usally have no eyes, have hardly any detail and often enough look like clones. They appear to be rough designs but with smooth edges. The same thing applies to the rest of the minitures. So I'm not even remotely impressed by anything AOS. Some miniatures are maybe decent, but that's about it.
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I think it varies. I painted some black knights and the wight king on foot last year, and they were some of the best plastic minis I've seen. I know not everyone likes the recent stylized skaven, but I think they're the best rendering of everyone's favorite chaos ratmen since the original lead Jes Goodwin sculpts.
Mind you, I'm still a huge fan of those old 4th/5th ed Empire infantry.
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Yeah, the 7th-8th edition empire models is not a result of the move to CAD, it was a design choice. I actually quite liked them. We tend to remember the nice 4-5th edition models or the 6th edition plastics, but so many of those were horrible.
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In my opinion WFB lost a lot of its spirit, when they've transitioned from 6th to 7th. Look at the Ogres. They used to be a bunch of eastern badasses, and suddendly they've begun riding beasts from World of Warcraft. What about the undead, and their complete change of tone (Lahmian Coven Throne, bleh) and Wood Elves, who have decided that their Treemen are not "men" enough. So they've made them look humanoid to the extreme.
Don't even get me started on the Empire. Demigryphs, magical battle altars, monkey-faced soldiers without shoes and... well, badly written books. Art style changed from gritty and semi-realistic, to "we fight daemons all the time!". Lore went to shitter (dwarfs destroying an imperial castle, because they have been payed 2 coins short...).
GW wanted WFB to be like 40K and killed it in the process. Now look at 40K - they're doing the exact, same thing. Horrible art style, with those weird, ornamental edges. Even Guardsmen have those now. Pushing huge kits at every opportunity. First the Knights, now we'll be getting plastic Thunderhawks. A friggin' PRIMARCH can be used in the games of 40K, which at its core was a setting about myths, half truths and legends who were never destined to return. It's like the creators don't now their own lore.
Yeah... WTF GW indeed.
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Shortly after the arrival of 6th edition in Fantasy way back in 2000, 40K took the crown of top GW product and then began to exponentially out sell Fantasy. They tried several things to try and bring Fantasy back, including those changes around 7th where they introduced more interesting kits.
Regarding ogres, as an ogre player at that time, the arrival of those kits was a welcome addition to our options. The army was boring as shit before they threw those choices in there. We had several flavors of very hard to modify kits that all served similar purposes.
As far as the art goes, I can understand people loving the old art styles from the 90's, at least some of them. Blanche established a zaniness and weirdness that carries through to today. But lets be honest, many of his pieces are hardly above amateur. The Bedford's did their part as well both artistically and modelwise. But the majority of the art in the 90's up to 2000 looked like they grabbed high school kids and gave them a bag of pencils.
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I never was a huge fan of Blanche TBH, but there were other, great artists who contributed to the hobby, before GW decided that there should be spikes and skulls everywhere.
As for boring armies - if you look at the older Empire, for example, there is a certain level of blandness. Generic dudes with swords, spears and halberds and also guns. For me however, that was cool. I did not needed a bunch of guys on chocobos from Final Fantasy, to enjoy the army, made from normal, scared humans, serving their Emperor. Same with Ogres. Yeah, they were monoposed, kinda boring, but in that boredom lay their beauty. That's what GW dosen't understand, when they're cramming so many unnecessary crap into their products nowadays. Sometimes less i better.
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What don't they understand? They've never been selling more models than they are currently sellin! I agree some of their aesthetics are a bit blah, but there is no doubting the turnaround they've made.
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Well good for them. All I know is I don't like the direction they've turned aesthetically or with AoS. I like what they've done with Blood Bowl but we'll see about the rest of the Specialist line.
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What don't they understand? They've never been selling more models than they are currently sellin! I agree some of their aesthetics are a bit blah, but there is no doubting the turnaround they've made.
I know, and I don't mind that. I'm happy that they've been doing ok, I really am, but this hobby... it's not for me anymore. Just like AoS isn't for me, or the new way of handling 40K isn't for me. I don't mind people liking it, I'm happy for them. It's just not the hobby that I used to love, that's all.
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Frankly, to me, many of the 4e/5e models are far too cartoonish. It might just be familiarity due to having started at the time, but to me, 6e has been the pinnacle of GW's Fantasy range, with a few notable exceptions.
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I feel the same Konrad. It was the most "realistic" style.
Having said that, they still put out some pretty low quality models at that time- Malkith and Gorgers.
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Isn't mounted Morathi a 6th ed model, too? Because she's horrible.
But I agree, GW did some great stuff back then.
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Yeah, pegasus-mounted Morathi is 6e.
Interestingly enough, the (entirely decent imo) 6e Dark Elf Sorceress miniature is actually a re-labeled 5e Morathi.
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They did the same thing with Teclis.
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6th edition = best era. Might be because I started playing then, but I still think the art direction put out at the time was stunning.
(http://bibliotheque-imperiale.com/images/a/a1/Princes_Dragons.jpg)
Does anyone know if Karl Kopinski is still with GW?
Edit: Apparently he went freelance in 2005.
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Karl Kopinski is incredible.
As far as I know he is freelance. He works with GW still but does many of his own things. On Facebook he was sharing some work he did on WWII paintings and they were terrific.
Paul Dainton is quite good as well.
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I started with 3rd, but I still think that 6th was the best era as well. As much nostalgia as I have for 3rd, it's a bit clunky and needed a bit of refinement. I thought they had streamlined the rules to where they had a great balance of detail & ease of play in 6th. I liked the 7th ed. core rules too. Too bad they f'ed it all up with extremely poor army lists.
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6th Edition is when I started playing too...
Back when most armies only had troops that had one attack.
A simpler time.
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6th ed was when I returned and really started an army.
Elegant rules for a more civilized age.
:mellow:
-Z
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6th was when I started WFB. It was enjoyable.
7th was enjoyable until the army lists started getting a bit much, but I attribute that to someone's idea of what was wanted for 8th.
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Karl Kopinski is prolly my favorite artists. 6th edition was the best. Simple, yet tactically demanding and with that wonderful, "true" Warhammer Fantasy feel to it.
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I started in late 4th, and 4th/5th were without a doubt the worst editions out of those I played, retrospectively. When I was 12 I loved the powergaming herohammer like everyone else, but it got pretty boring and 6th was fresh air. Like many others, 7th was my favourite core rule set with 6th having the best lists. I didn't mind the lists in 5th actually, it was the magic items that got totally out of hand and stuffed everything up.
Anyway, some of the art and models from 4th/5th were very good, but others I found really horribly cartoony, an inverse of the absolutely ridiculously serious-yet-world of warcraft stuff from 8th. 6th and 7th had a better balance.
I agree with comments about how the models have not really come far in terms of quality. Sure the technology is light years ahead of the old models, but the fine details and textures seem somehow crude and shiny, almost every model seems like a giant missed opportunity. The new 40k stuff I find mostly horrible - there are exceptions like Cypher and the Mechanicus stuff but Guilliman and the Custodes are just ridiculously bad, and I wasn't a fan of the deathwatch either. The AoS stuff is barely worth mentioning.
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You can do more things and create more complex designs, but other than that technology isn't really that relevant for miniature quality. It's more to do with sculptor skill and concept design.
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If we're reminiscing about when we started I'll throw in a bit. I started collecting around the tail end of 5th edition, but barely even new it had something to do with the game. I mostly liked the box art, that's one of the things I really miss about the newer stuff. Now it's just pictures of the models painted way better then I'll even accomplish, but that art was awesome.
I think one of the first bigger boxes I got was the starter set that was Empire vs Orcs. Was that the 6th starter set? I'd been collecting for a few years at that point and I sort of remember that starter set had just come out. Before that the hobby store I visited barely carried any warhammer, which is part of why I didn't realise it was a larger game. But then around 2000ish in my area warhammer exploded.
I also hate to say it but I'm hated every edition for the first year or so, before converting heavily into whatever the new one was. Hated 7th when it first came, year later it was all I played. Hated 8th when it first came, two years later it was all I played. I actually think 8th is my favorite edition, as strange as that might sound. My area was always pretty competitive but I play pretty casual, so I always dealt with the worst cheese every edition. I don't know why, but 8th felt a lot more balanced to me. There was stuff I disliked, but parts of the magic phase, but overall I liked it.
Model wise I'm all over the place. Some of my favorite models are from the storm of chaos era. A lot of the newer stuff looks to cartoony and comedic, even though that's the era I got started. Newer stuff looks impressive, but a bit to high fantasy for my taste.