Topic: WTF GW,

[Victor]

Almost all GW (Fantasy) models since 2007/2008 look too artificial and over the top for my liking. You only have to compare the faces of Empire plastic miniatures from the 5th(!!) edition to those of today: the old ones had very fine details considering the scale (eyes, small wrinkles, wisps of hair, teeth, tongues .. eveything - each head/face was also unique), while the new ones usally have no eyes, have hardly any detail and often enough look like clones. They appear to be rough designs but with smooth edges. The same thing applies to the rest of the minitures. So I'm not even remotely impressed by anything AOS. Some miniatures are maybe decent, but that's about it.

[ZeroTwentythree]

I think it varies. I painted some black knights and the wight king on foot last year, and they were some of the best plastic minis I've seen. I know not everyone likes the recent stylized skaven, but I think they're the best rendering of everyone's favorite chaos ratmen since the original lead Jes Goodwin sculpts.

Mind you, I'm still a huge fan of those old 4th/5th ed Empire infantry.

[phillyt]

Yeah, the 7th-8th edition empire models is not a result of the move to CAD, it was a design choice.  I actually quite liked them.  We tend to remember the nice 4-5th edition models or the 6th edition plastics, but so many of those were horrible.

[Xathrodox86]

In my opinion WFB lost a lot of its spirit, when they've transitioned from 6th to 7th. Look at the Ogres. They used to be a bunch of eastern badasses, and suddendly they've begun riding beasts from World of Warcraft. What about the undead, and their complete change of tone (Lahmian Coven Throne, bleh) and Wood Elves, who have decided that their Treemen are not "men" enough. So they've made them look humanoid to the extreme.

Don't even get me started on the Empire. Demigryphs, magical battle altars, monkey-faced soldiers without shoes and... well, badly written books. Art style changed from gritty and semi-realistic, to "we fight daemons all the time!". Lore went to shitter (dwarfs destroying an imperial castle, because they have been payed 2 coins short...).

GW wanted WFB to be like 40K and killed it in the process. Now look at 40K - they're doing the exact, same thing. Horrible art style, with those weird, ornamental edges. Even Guardsmen have those now. Pushing huge kits at every opportunity. First the Knights, now we'll be getting plastic Thunderhawks. A friggin' PRIMARCH can be used in the games of 40K, which at its core was a setting about myths, half truths and legends who were never destined to return. It's like the creators don't now their own lore.

Yeah... WTF GW indeed.

[phillyt]

Shortly after the arrival of 6th edition in Fantasy way back in 2000, 40K took the crown of top GW product and then began to exponentially out sell Fantasy.  They tried several things to try and bring Fantasy back, including those changes around 7th where they introduced more interesting kits. 

Regarding ogres, as an ogre player at that time, the arrival of those kits was a welcome addition to our options.  The army was boring as shit before they threw those choices in there.  We had several flavors of very hard to modify kits that all served similar purposes.

As far as the art goes, I can understand people loving the old art styles from the 90's, at least some of them.  Blanche established a zaniness and weirdness that carries through to today.  But lets be honest, many of his pieces are hardly above amateur.  The Bedford's did their part as well both artistically and modelwise.  But the majority of the art in the 90's up to 2000 looked like they grabbed high school kids and gave them a bag of pencils.

[Xathrodox86]

I never was a huge fan of Blanche TBH, but there were other, great artists who contributed to the hobby, before GW decided that there should be spikes and skulls everywhere.

As for boring armies - if you look at the older Empire, for example, there is a certain level of blandness. Generic dudes with swords, spears and halberds and also guns. For me however, that was cool. I did not needed a bunch of guys on chocobos from Final Fantasy, to enjoy the army, made from normal, scared humans, serving their Emperor. Same with Ogres. Yeah, they were monoposed, kinda boring, but in that boredom lay their beauty. That's what GW dosen't understand, when they're cramming so many unnecessary crap into their products nowadays. Sometimes less i better.

[phillyt]

What don't they understand? They've never been selling more models than they are currently sellin!  I agree some of their aesthetics are a bit blah, but there is no doubting the turnaround they've made.

[wissenlander]

Well good for them.  All I know is I don't like the direction they've turned aesthetically or with AoS.  I like what they've done with Blood Bowl but we'll see about the rest of the Specialist line.

[Xathrodox86]

What don't they understand? They've never been selling more models than they are currently sellin!  I agree some of their aesthetics are a bit blah, but there is no doubting the turnaround they've made.

I know, and I don't mind that. I'm happy that they've been doing ok, I really am, but this hobby... it's not for me anymore. Just like AoS isn't for me, or the new way of handling 40K isn't for me. I don't mind people liking it, I'm happy for them. It's just not the hobby that I used to love, that's all.

[Konrad von Richtmark]

Frankly, to me, many of the 4e/5e models are far too cartoonish. It might just be familiarity due to having started at the time, but to me, 6e has been the pinnacle of GW's Fantasy range, with a few notable exceptions.

[phillyt]

I feel the same Konrad.  It was the most "realistic" style. 

Having said that, they still put out some pretty low quality models at that time- Malkith and Gorgers.

[Gneisenau]

Isn't mounted Morathi a 6th ed model, too? Because she's horrible.

But I agree, GW did some great stuff back then.

[Konrad von Richtmark]

Yeah, pegasus-mounted Morathi is 6e.

Interestingly enough, the (entirely decent imo) 6e Dark Elf Sorceress miniature is actually a re-labeled 5e Morathi.

[Gneisenau]

They did the same thing with Teclis.

[patsy02]

6th edition = best era. Might be because I started playing then, but I still think the art direction put out at the time was stunning.



Does anyone know if Karl Kopinski is still with GW?

Edit: Apparently he went freelance in 2005.

[phillyt]

Karl Kopinski is incredible. 

As far as I know he is freelance.  He works with GW still but does many of his own things.  On Facebook he was sharing some work he did on WWII paintings and they were terrific.

Paul Dainton is quite good as well.

[ZeroTwentythree]

I started with 3rd, but I still think that 6th was the best era as well. As much nostalgia as I have for 3rd, it's a bit clunky and needed a bit of refinement. I thought they had streamlined the rules to where they had a great balance of detail & ease of play in 6th. I liked the 7th ed. core rules too. Too bad they f'ed it all up with extremely poor army lists.

[Derek Contyre]

6th Edition is when I started playing too...

Back when most armies only had troops that had one attack.
A simpler time.

[Zygmund]

6th ed was when I returned and really started an army.

Elegant rules for a more civilized age.

 

-Z

[GamesPoet]

6th was when I started WFB.  It was enjoyable.

7th was enjoyable until the army lists started getting a bit much, but I attribute that to someone's idea of what was wanted for 8th.

[Xathrodox86]

Karl Kopinski is prolly my favorite artists. 6th edition was the best. Simple, yet tactically demanding and with that wonderful, "true" Warhammer Fantasy feel to it.

[Sig]

I started in late 4th, and 4th/5th were without a doubt the worst editions out of those I played, retrospectively. When I was 12 I loved the powergaming herohammer like everyone else, but it got pretty boring and 6th was fresh air. Like many others, 7th was my favourite core rule set with 6th having the best lists. I didn't mind the lists in 5th actually, it was the magic items that got totally out of hand and stuffed everything up.

Anyway, some of the art and models from 4th/5th were very good, but others I found really horribly cartoony, an inverse of the absolutely ridiculously serious-yet-world of warcraft stuff from 8th. 6th and 7th had a better balance.

I agree with comments about how the models have not really come far in terms of quality. Sure the technology is light years ahead of the old models, but the fine details and textures seem somehow crude and shiny, almost every model seems like a giant missed opportunity. The new 40k stuff I find mostly horrible - there are exceptions like Cypher and the Mechanicus stuff but Guilliman and the Custodes are just ridiculously bad, and I wasn't a fan of the deathwatch either. The AoS stuff is barely worth mentioning.

[patsy02]

You can do more things and create more complex designs, but other than that technology isn't really that relevant for miniature quality. It's more to do with sculptor skill and concept design.

[Gankom]

If we're reminiscing about when we started I'll throw in a bit. I started collecting around the tail end of 5th edition, but barely even new it had something to do with the game. I mostly liked the box art, that's one of the things I really miss about the newer stuff. Now it's just pictures of the models painted way better then I'll even accomplish, but that art was awesome.

I think one of the first bigger boxes I got was the starter set that was Empire vs Orcs. Was that the 6th starter set? I'd been collecting for a few years at that point and I sort of remember that starter set had just come out. Before that the hobby store I visited barely carried any warhammer, which is part of why I didn't realise it was a larger game. But then around 2000ish in my area warhammer exploded.

I also hate to say it but I'm hated every edition for the first year or so, before converting heavily into whatever the new one was. Hated 7th when it first came, year later it was all I played. Hated 8th when it first came, two years later it was all I played. I actually think 8th is my favorite edition, as strange as that might sound. My area was always pretty competitive but I play pretty casual, so I always dealt with the worst cheese every edition. I don't know why, but 8th felt a lot more balanced to me. There was stuff I disliked, but parts of the magic phase, but overall I liked it.

Model wise I'm all over the place. Some of my favorite models are from the storm of chaos era. A lot of the newer stuff looks to cartoony and comedic, even though that's the era I got started. Newer stuff looks impressive, but a bit to high fantasy for my taste.