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The General Archive => The Tactica Board => Topic started by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 05, 2012, 09:47:56 PM

Title: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 05, 2012, 09:47:56 PM
Tactical Decision Game 2.7:  The Climax


***Note-  read the following thread to follow along with the Tactical Decision Game 2 storyline: 
--Tactical Decision Game 2:  The Beginning (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43768.msg741970#msg741970)
--Tactical Decision Game 2.1:  Strategy & Deployment (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43814.msg743701#msg74370)
--Tactical Decision Game 2.2:  Magic, Magic, Magic (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43856.msg745342#msg745342)
--Tactical Decision Game 2.3:  To Charge or Not to Charge (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43862.msg745793#msg745793)
--Tactical Decision Game 2.4:  The Plot Thickens (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43878.msg746717#msg746717)
--Tactical Decision Game 2.5:  Die Hard (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43914.msg747956#msg747956)
--Tactical Decision Game 2.6:  Nearing the Climax (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43946.msg748868#msg748868)

-------------------------------------

Tactical Decision Games are a fun way to think through tough situations that Empire Generals face.  It is all about making tough decisions in tough situations… so the next time you face similar situations-  you are ready for them!  Check out Tactical Decision Game 1:  Empire versus the Ogrebus (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=43557.msg735054#msg735054) if you haven’t seen it yet to get an idea of what a TDG is all out. 

-------------------------------------

So this is it.  The final thread.  Can you believe this started almost a full month ago?

This bad boy is down to the wire.  By my calculations, Dreadlord is beating Team Green by 196 VPs and Team Blue by 106 VPs.

The good news:  there are plenty of Dark Elf points ripe for the taking in the final round.


Team Blue Movement

Team B fires up the boiler’s in its tank.  4 Steam, no issues.   

The Knights charge the rear of what is left of the Warrior horde and get two models into base contact with the Metal witch (better late than never….right?)

The Reiksguard finally get into the game by charging the rear of the Executioners so the Execs can’t join the battle royale in the center.  (Apologize, but I failed to tell you that 1 Reiksguard died due to a Dangerous Terrain test last time they were in the forest.  There are a total of 10 models in the unit at the moment)

The Wizard’s Archer bunker moves back a few inches to get the TGM within 12” for potential killer buffing.

Last, the Knights perform a swift reform and head towards the ruins-  to block a potential charge from the Shades to the Wizard bunker and to get within 6” of the ruins so its unit points cost towards the VP count for those 100 special VPs.

The Steam Tank grinds 3 steam worth of points to kill 5 Warriors.


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2B6APoss.jpg)



Team Green Movement

The ICK charge the Warrior block and make it.

The Engie charges the Execs and Dreadlord’s high rolls finally come back to haunt him-  the Exec worth 498 VPs runs off the board on a 10!

The ‘Nilla Knights reform and face the center, their part in this battle basically over.


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2G6APoss.jpg)




Team Blue Magic & Shooting

Empire gets a 5 and 3 for the Winds O Magic roll.  Empire channels 1 extra.

9 PD to 5 DD. 

The Beastmage casts a 3 dice Curse on the Warriors.  Gets a 13+4+1=18.  Dreadlord lets it go.

Hoping to get Savage Beasts of Horrors off at least once this battle, the mage tosses 6 dice at it.  2x6s.  It goes off on IF. 

The Beastmage is elated until he rolls a 4 on the Miscast.  The big boom kills 4 of his Archer buddies and sucks him into the realm of chaos…never to be seen again.  The Archers make their Panic test.     

Archers shoot at the Shades to no effect.

 
Team Green Magic & Shooting

The Comet does not go off.  (WTH is up with this Comet?  Take a coffee break?)

8 PD to 5 DD.

Green starts off with a 3-dice Harmonic C on the ICK.  Dreadlord Dispel Scrolls it.  (Yep, he still had it.)

The Heavens Wizard casts a 3-dice Iceshard on the Warriors and gets 10+4=14.  Dreadlord tosses 3 DD at it as well and gets 12+4=16.  Dispelled.

Huss casts a 2-dice Shield of Faith.  Gets 8.  Dreadlord tosses his last two-  5+4=9.  Dispelled. 

Hopefully your shooting goes better than your magic.  The Helblaster fires up its barrels one last time for-  6, Misfire, Misfire (okay, maybe not better than your magic phase…).  Engie re-rolls one Misfire into a 10. 

So…8 shots to work with.  5 hits, 3 wounds.  Exactly what you needed to finish them off.

Helblaster’s job is done.  Your Engie kicks back with his feet up on the barrels and fires up a pipe…


Team Blue Tactical Decisions for TFG 2.7

Okay, here is the deal. I need to know if you are going to challenge with the TGM (there is no Champ in the Execs so no decision to be made in that combat).

Also, how do you want to allocate your attacks?  Yours is not as complicated as Green’s is, but nonetheless, this is your input for this round.


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2B6ACombat.jpg)



Team Green Tactical Decisions for TFG 2.7

Are you going to issue and challenge?  And with who?

How do you want to allocate your attacks, depending on if the BSB makes way or not?



(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2G6ACombat.jpg)




Man, this is another good one.  Death.  Destruction.  Mages getting sucked into the abyss.  Who is going to come out on top? 

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Harshey on October 06, 2012, 01:01:26 AM
I don't think we should issue a challenge from the ICK side, heres why:

We need to maximize attacks against the lord and BSB if he makes way. Right now we have 4 S6 hatred attacks into the dreadlord a d a couple of horses. This has a good chance of killing him outright.

We're only up by one going into combat, but we should out wound him, leaving a tough break test.

To avoid a challenge issued by the dreadlord, can we make way with the reiksguard champ and have him issue one?
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: zifnab0 on October 06, 2012, 01:30:46 AM
Challenge with Reiksguard champion.

If he wants, he can dedicate enough attacks to possibly kill off the Reiksguard.  If we challenge with the Reiksguard we take that option away from him.  I don't see any downside for challenging.

If he refuses, send the Dreadlord to the 2nd rank where he can't fight.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Friar Metick on October 06, 2012, 02:58:19 AM
Challenge with the Reiks champ.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 06, 2012, 03:10:10 AM
If he wants, he can dedicate enough attacks to possibly kill off the Reiksguard.  If we challenge with the Reiksguard we take that option away from him.  I don't see any downside for challenging.

If one is killed in the challenge and this is completed before other models get to go in their Init order...wouldn't new models in base contact be able to swing?
Title: Sv: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 06, 2012, 04:25:43 AM
Blue
2 Nilla knights on the witch, 1 on unit
steamgun and engineer  on the unit
Tgm challenges the dreadlord

And damn our bad luck!

Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: George on October 06, 2012, 05:17:02 AM
This could be an interesting challenge.
If Dreadlord see's the writing on the wall he may accept with the metal mage so that dreadlord can make way and perhaps get teh points of the knights. This would mean less attacks on the unit and possible not breaking steadfast.
If we don't challenge Dreadlord probably makes way anyway, but we risk not getting the metal mage.
My vote is for not challenging this turn, kill all the spears with the TGM's attacks so Dreadlord may be running this turn, or will die to attacks in the next combat.
Title: Sv: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 06, 2012, 05:42:54 AM
This could be an interesting challenge.
If Dreadlord see's the writing on the wall he may accept with the metal mage so that dreadlord can make way and perhaps get teh points of the knights. This would mean less attacks on the unit and possible not breaking steadfast.
If we don't challenge Dreadlord probably makes way anyway, but we risk not getting the metal mage.
My vote is for not challenging this turn, kill all the spears with the TGM's attacks so Dreadlord may be running this turn, or will die to attacks in the next combat.

Goode point george, although if we dont the metal witch will and we cannot decline. but yeah, lets not issue and see what the dread is up to.

Sendt fra min GT-I9000 med Tapatalk2
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Dnic on October 06, 2012, 08:06:06 AM
If we challange with the reik champion, and the dreadlord accept, we cant hit him with all the str 6 hatred attacks :/
So lets not challange, its turn, and save the reik to next turn where we dont have str 6.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: zakalwe on October 06, 2012, 10:17:19 AM
If the bsb makes way to the reiksguard i think we should challenge with our champ. Though if the dreadlord excepts we could still loose the reiks. Though we would kill  his other troops and sorc.

If the bsb makes way to the ICK, to hit our bsb or huss, we may as well hope either target survives.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 06, 2012, 11:00:32 AM
We should definazely challenge and most likely kill either the dreadlord or the witch without return attacks on the grandmaster otherwise the DE player has some tasty options like slicing the steam tank ...i think.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: zifnab0 on October 06, 2012, 11:17:14 AM
If he wants, he can dedicate enough attacks to possibly kill off the Reiksguard.  If we challenge with the Reiksguard we take that option away from him.  I don't see any downside for challenging.

If one is killed in the challenge and this is completed before other models get to go in their Init order...wouldn't new models in base contact be able to swing?
Doesn't the BSB's banner grant ASF to the unit?  So all of their attacks are simultaneous.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 06, 2012, 11:23:43 AM
If he wants, he can dedicate enough attacks to possibly kill off the Reiksguard.  If we challenge with the Reiksguard we take that option away from him.  I don't see any downside for challenging.

If one is killed in the challenge and this is completed before other models get to go in their Init order...wouldn't new models in base contact be able to swing?
Doesn't the BSB's banner grant ASF to the unit?  So all of their attacks are simultaneous.

That is true for everything but the Dreadlord and BSB who have ASF and ASL-  which cancel each other out, so they strike at their Init. 
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: zifnab0 on October 06, 2012, 11:46:05 AM
That is true for everything but the Dreadlord and BSB who have ASF and ASL-  which cancel each other out, so they strike at their Init.
Didn't realize the BSB also had ASL.

He could accept the challenge with the DL, move the BSB in range and direct all of his attacks against our Reiksguard.  But that would only give him 2 (or 3?) attacks against the Reiksguard from the BSB, not enough to kill them.

And it would also make the Dreadlord less efficient - I'd rather suffer overkill wounds than actual dead ICK.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Bildskoene Bengtsson on October 06, 2012, 11:58:52 AM
I also want to challenge. A dead witch is not that bad, since that means no more magic.

Oh, and if we manage to win this battle albeit the elves being perfectly tailored to beat our kind of lists and our incredibly bad luck we are AWESOME!
Title: Sv: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 06, 2012, 12:34:44 PM
Blue
No challenge: The d lord will most likely do about 4-8 wounds to the steamtank, the de spears 1 wound, our tgm about 4-6 to spears and our knights 1-2 and the steamgun and engineer about 1. We charged, got rear and flank, they got banner, they run on 6+.

We challenge, metal witch dies, they remain steadfast, our tank takes 6 wounds.  We kill the dreadlord next turn and do not have to fear a magic phase.

I abstain from voting




Sendt fra min GT-I9000 med Tapatalk2
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Cursain on October 06, 2012, 01:37:51 PM
I may be misunderstanding the DL making way to the knights but doesn't the rule state on pg100 that the character has to be unengaged in HtH to make way through the ranks?  My interpretation of the rule states that the DL is going to be stuck fighting the knights with Luthor Huss, the BSB and the wizard.  Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: mottdon on October 06, 2012, 01:39:28 PM
I say challenge.  Either way he is losing a lot of points from a character.  That will help out tremendosly.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 06, 2012, 01:51:51 PM
How many more spears have to die to end steadfast?
Title: Sv: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 06, 2012, 02:03:50 PM
Fandir: 6

Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Noght on October 06, 2012, 02:42:01 PM
Ok, challenge with the Reiksguard Champion.  No matter who accepts we move to the end of the line, NOT to a second rank, no way Jose.

Dreadlord has to accept with something otherwise he loses the DL or BSB attacks, so he should accept with the Champion.

THEN....

ASF spears go first.  which means he has two or one (makeway with BSB) attacking the IC Knights.  The attacks at the Reiksguard are lost due to the challenge with the Champion.

Then DL and maybe BSB go.  The surviving IC Knights and a single Reiksguard attack (assuming the Reik Champ dies).
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 06, 2012, 02:43:48 PM
Ok then what happens when we kill those ? Is there a chance that dreadlord is in contact with our Gm ? If yes we should still challenge as we cant lose him and a challenge this turn will end the game next turn with metal witch and dreadlord dead in the dirt.
Title: Sv: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 06, 2012, 02:56:40 PM
Ok then what happens when we kill those ? Is there a chance that dreadlord is in contact with our Gm ? If yes we should still challenge as we cant lose him and a challenge this turn will end the game next turn with metal witch and dreadlord dead in the dirt.
Good point fandir, i dunno how the rules cover such at situation. If it is possible for the dreadlord to strike the tgm without him being able to hit anything but spears, then we should challenge.

Sendt fra min GT-I9000 med Tapatalk2
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Friar Metick on October 06, 2012, 04:02:01 PM
Ok, challenge with the Reiksguard Champion.  No matter who accepts we move to the end of the line, NOT to a second rank, no way Jose.

Dreadlord has to accept with something otherwise he loses the DL or BSB attacks, so he should accept with the Champion.

THEN....

ASF spears go first.  which means he has two or one (makeway with BSB) attacking the IC Knights.  The attacks at the Reiksguard are lost due to the challenge with the Champion.

Then DL and maybe BSB go.  The surviving IC Knights and a single Reiksguard attack (assuming the Reik Champ dies).

The challenge would be fought before the ASF spearmen go. Whoops, sorry it looks like your THEN... comment meant the challenge was fought first.  :icon_redface: I still think our best move is to challenge with the Reik champ.
Title: Re: Sv: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: mottdon on October 06, 2012, 04:16:12 PM
Ok then what happens when we kill those ? Is there a chance that dreadlord is in contact with our Gm ? If yes we should still challenge as we cant lose him and a challenge this turn will end the game next turn with metal witch and dreadlord dead in the dirt.
Good point fandir, i dunno how the rules cover such at situation. If it is possible for the dreadlord to strike the tgm without him being able to hit anything but spears, then we should challenge.

Sendt fra min GT-I9000 med Tapatalk2
Either way, I think we should challenge because we would be able to get rid of both characters this round and next.  Their combined points total should be enough to put us over the top in VPs.

Also, I would like to get rid of that Metal Witch!  Since we have no magical defence anymore, I'd be fine with him accepting with her this round.  I think that we will be able to hold out until we get to challenge on his turn.
Title: Sv: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 06, 2012, 06:14:13 PM
Blue; Lets go for the challenge!

Sendt fra min GT-I9000 med Tapatalk2

Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: SevenSins on October 06, 2012, 07:00:53 PM
damned if I know, what the heck lets challenge and hope he is ballsy enough to take it with the Dreadlord (goad him HG!)
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Noght on October 06, 2012, 07:02:53 PM
Ok, challenge with the Reiksguard Champion.  No matter who accepts we move to the end of the line, NOT to a second rank, no way Jose.

Dreadlord has to accept with something otherwise he loses the DL or BSB attacks, so he should accept with the Champion.

THEN....

ASF spears go first.  which means he has two or one (makeway with BSB) attacking the IC Knights.  The attacks at the Reiksguard are lost due to the challenge with the Champion.

Then DL and maybe BSB go.  The surviving IC Knights and a single Reiksguard attack (assuming the Reik Champ dies).

The challenge would be fought before the ASF spearmen go. Whoops, sorry it looks like your THEN... comment meant the challenge was fought first.  :icon_redface: I still think our best move is to challenge with the Reik champ.

Sorry, should have been clearer.  You still fight everything in Initiative order, even challenges.  So in this case his ASF bites him in the butt.  Because accepting with BSB or Lord means those attacks will take place after ASF.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 06, 2012, 08:35:19 PM
I may be misunderstanding the DL making way to the knights but doesn't the rule state on pg100 that the character has to be unengaged in HtH to make way through the ranks?  My interpretation of the rule states that the DL is going to be stuck fighting the knights with Luthor Huss, the BSB and the wizard.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Cursain-  when they refer to the Dreadlord fighting the Reiksguard, it is if he accepts a challenge from the Reiksguard champ.  Both models would be moved into base contact with each other.

------------------------------------

Okay, I am going to go page by page through this to count the "votes" for what you are going to do.  Lots of good posts, and the winning course of action is not readily apparent, like it sometimes is.   Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 06, 2012, 11:26:37 PM
***Update***

Combat Versus Team Blue

Blue has-  Savage Beasts on the TGM, who also suffers from x2 Plague of Rust.
Purple has-  Enchanted Blades, Glittering Robes on the Warriors, and suffers from a Curse of Anheir.

Warriors make their Fear test.

The TGM issues a challenge.  The Metal Sorc accepts.  The Dreadlord makes way to the STank.

I6 TGM  7 attacks,  6 hits.  Metal Sorc dies, 3 points of Overkill.

I5 Warriors on the Knights-  no effect.

I3     Knights on the Warriors- 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound.  2 Warriors die.
I3     Horses-  no effect.
I3     Eng Comm-  1 hit, 1 wound, no save.  1 Warrior dies.
I3     Steam Gun on the Warriors-  7 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save, 1 Warrior dies. 
ASL Dreadlord.  4 attacks on the STank.  4 attacks, 4 hits, 4 unsaved wounds which multiply into 11!  STank dies.  Holy shit!  Did I just witness that?


Empire:            7 wounds.  Charge.  Rear.             
Dark Elves:      10 wounds.  Standard.   

Empire loses by 1.  TGM makes the Break test.  The Knights fail.  They turn tail and run 5” away.

Here is how the combat looks at the end:


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2B6ACombatDone.jpg)



In the Reiksguard versus the Executioner combat:

I4     Huss- 2 attacks, 2 wounds, no saves.  2 Execs die.
I3     Reiksguard-  9 attacks, 8 hits, 7 wounds.  7 Execs die.
I3     Horses-  5 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds, no saves.  3 Execs die.
ASL Executioners versus Huss- 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 Ward Save. Huss takes a wound.
        Executioners versus Reiksguard-  5 attacks, 5 hits, 5 wounds, 3 saves.  2 Reiksguard die.   

Dark Elves lose by a lot, but have exactly 5 in the back rank so are Steadfast.  Make the Break and the combat reform tests to face the Reiksguard.


Combat Versus Team Green


The Reiksguard Champ issues a challenge.  The Dreadlord accepts.  Both move to get into base contact with each other.  The BSB makes way to the Reiksguard. 

Reiksguard have 2 Plague of Rust.
Dark Elves have Enchanted Blades.

ASF  Warriors on Huss-  2 hits, 2 wounds, no saves.  Huss dies. 
         Warriors on the ICK-  1 hit, 1 wound, no save.  1 ICK dies. 
I7      Dreadlord in the challenge- 4 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds.  Wounds multiply into 7 wounds.  Reik Champ dies and DE gets 5 wounds on the Overkill.
I7      DE BSB on the Reik.  3 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds, no saves.  3 Reiks die.
I5      Emp BSB on the Warriors.  3 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds.  2 Warriors die.
I3      Reiksguard on the DE BSB.  1 hit, 1 wound, no save.  BSB dies.   
I3      ICK on the Warriors-  5 attacks, 4 hits, 4 wounds.  4 Warriors die.         
         Horses.  No effect.

Empire-         7 wounds.  Charge.  Flank.  1 Rank.  Standard.  Battle Standard.
Dark Elves-   7 wounds.  5 Overkill.  Flank. 

Empire lost by 1.  Both units of Knights fail their first roll but make it on the re-roll.

Here is how it looks at the end:


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2G6ACombatDone.jpg)



End of Turn 4

Here is what the battlefields look like:


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2B6ADone.jpg)




(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2G6ADone.jpg)




That was insane.  Dreadlord is not going down without a fight, wielding his Executioner’s Axe with deadly purpose….but I think Empire is turning the tide in the final moments.

Team Blue-  up by 64 VPs.
Team Green-  up by 425 VPs.

Stay tuned while Dreadlord makes his last stand.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Noght on October 06, 2012, 11:33:08 PM
I think you messed that up.  Going out to Dinner and will look at it later.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: zakalwe on October 07, 2012, 12:27:31 AM
Flukey sods killed huss

still looks good, next turn we don't challenge and refuse with bsb if dreadlord does., then hopefully kill metal sorc.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: zifnab0 on October 07, 2012, 02:19:16 AM
Elf warriors: 3+ to hit, 5+ to wound, Huss gets a 3+ armor and 4+ ward.  And all it took was 2 attacks to kill him.

That's absurd.  We're not going to lose this game from bad strategy, we're going to lose by horrible luck.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 07, 2012, 02:31:29 AM
Elf warriors: 3+ to hit, 5+ to wound, Huss gets a 3+ armor and 4+ ward.  And all it took was 2 attacks to kill him.

That's absurd.  We're not going to lose this game from bad strategy, we're going to lose by horrible luck.

His AS is modified to 5+ with Rust and AP...but yes, I do fell bad about my poor dice rolling for you.  I rolled a 3 and 1 with my normally lucky Ward Save dice.

:blush:
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: librisrouge on October 07, 2012, 03:11:12 AM
I for one would hear by refuse to play HHG in real life unless I can provide him the dice...he isn't allowed to come within one foot of my own dice as well.

I've been following that thread but...DAAAAAAMMMMN! Steam Tank AND Luthor. Wow.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 07, 2012, 03:21:16 AM
I for one would hear by refuse to play HHG in real life unless I can provide him the dice...he isn't allowed to come within one foot of my own dice as well.

I've been following that thread but...DAAAAAAMMMMN! Steam Tank AND Luthor. Wow.

Honestly I think it comes down to dice.

The dice I use for Dreadlord are a blood red set that are really streaky.  They usually are killer hot, but in some games go cold.  In this game, they were rolling 5s and 6s like they were cool.

I used two sets of dice for Empire-  steel blue and speckled white.  They are my normal Empire dice-  they are my "old-faithfuls."  I get crappy rolls at times, but somehow they always seem to pull games out in the end.

I was hoping the TDG would be decided by skill, not luck, in the final hour.  This one is still up in the air. 

One thing we can never forget though-  luck is a part of the game and can bite us no matter how badass we are.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Noght on October 07, 2012, 03:42:49 AM
One of the rules guys need to check, Multi-wound weapons vs single wound models, even in a challenge with overkill.

Feels wonky to me....
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 07, 2012, 04:00:06 AM
One of the rules guys need to check, Multi-wound weapons vs single wound models, even in a challenge with overkill.

Feels wonky to me....

I actually pulled out the books and looked at it for awhile when it came up.  Normally extra wounds or multiple wounds wouldn't matter...but in the case of a challenge it comes into play.

The way I saw it-  you count all the original wounds caused, regardless of how many the model has.  Since he is doing "overkill" he really slices and dices up the poor champ because each unsaved wound gets multiplied. 

Seeing their poor champ get completely obliterated and turned into red mist would put the fear into any troop.

Of course, part of this TDG is to learn, so if anyone has a comment on this ruling, feel free to post.  For now, moving forward.

---------------------------------------

The final post is almost ready.  I will have it up in a few minutes.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 07, 2012, 04:12:19 AM
Dreadlord’s Last Turn

Versus Team Blue

Movement

Not much to move.  The Shades slide up on the hill to get one more shot at the cannon. 


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2B6B.jpg)



Versus Team Green

Movement

Nothing to move.


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2G6B.jpg)



Magic versus Team Green

The Comet finally goes off.  It obliterates everything within 8”  Luckily, no forces are in the area.  Unluckily, the Elector Count is not going to be too happy that the Arcane Ruins are really ruined now…

Dreadlord rolls a 3 and 2 for Winds of Magic.  No channeled dice. 

Dreadlord rolls a 1 die Powers of Darkness and gets a 5+4=9.  Empire uses its 2 DD on it and gets 6+4=10.  Dispelled.

Dreadlord uses his last 2 PD on Glittering Robe.  Goes off on a 5+4=9.


Shooting Versus Team Blue

The Shades fire 18 shots, 8 hits, 1 wound.  The Great Cannon finally dies.


Combat Versus Team Blue

Blue has-  Savage Beasts on the TGM, who also suffers from x2 Plague of Rust.
Purple has suffers from a Curse of Anheir.

The TGM issues a challenge.  The Dreadlord denies the challenge.

I6 TGM  7 attacks,  4 hits.  The last 4 Warriors die.

Only the TGM and Dreadlord remain.

Empire:            4 wounds.               
Dark Elves:      Nothing.   

DE lose by 4.  Dreadlord finally fails a Break test on a 7.  He runs a wimpy 4” inches and the TGM catches him on a 6.  The Dreadlord is dead!!!   :eusa_clap:


In the Reiksguard versus the Executioner combat:

Huss uses his special ability and gets +1WS,S,T, A.

I4     Huss- 3 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, no saves.  2 Execs die.
I3     Reiksguard-  7 attacks, 4 hits, 4 wounds, 1 save.  3 Execs die.
I3     Horses-  5 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save.  1 Execs die.
ASL Executioners versus Huss- 2 hits, 1 wound, 1 Ward Save.
        Executioners versus Reiksguard-  4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save.  1 Reiksguard die.   

Empire-       6 wounds.  Standard.
Dark Elves  1 wound.

DE lost by 6.  Executioners fail their Break Test.  They run 8” and the Reiksguard run them down on a 10.  The Executioners are destroyed!


Combat Versus Team Green


Dreadlord issues a challenge.  The Empire refuses, and Dreadlord sends the Captain BSB to the rear.

Reiksguard have 2 Plague of Rust, ICK has 1.
Dark Elves have Glittering Robe.

I5      Warrior Champ on the Reik.  2 attacks, 1 hit, no wound.
I5      Metal Mage on the ICK.  1 attack, 1 hit, saved.
I3      Reiksguard on the Warrior Champ.  1 hit, 1 wound, no save.  Champ dies.
I3      ICK on the Metal Sorc-  4 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds.  Metal Sorc dies.         
         Horses.  No effect.
ASL  Dreadlord on the Reiksguard.  4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds.  Reiksguard dies.

Empire-         4 wounds.  Flank.  1 Rank.  Standard.  Battle Standard.
Dark Elves-   1 wound. 

Dark Elves lose by 7.  Dreadlord fails his Break test and run 10”  The Knights ride hard and catch him on boxcars.

Team Green cleared the field of bad guys!   :eusa_clap:



End of Turn

Here is what the battlefields look like:


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2B6BFinal2.jpg)



(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/TDG2G6BFinal2.jpg)



Final Wrap Up

Well, that wraps it up.  Great stuff in the end!

I checked the math twice.  Hopefully I didn’t screw anything up.


Blue points gained

2308 in models
200 Gen, BSB
25 Exec Std
25 Warrior Std
100 Scenario
--------------------------
2658 Total


Blue Points Lost:
 
1391 in models
100 BSB
25 ICK Std
--------------------------
1516 Total


Therefore, Blue beat Dreadlord by 1142 VPs

--------------------------------------------------------------

Green points gained:
2500 for Army
200 for Gen, BSB
25 Warrior Std
25 Exec Std
------------------------
2750 total

Green points lost:
1371 in models
100 for Gen
25 Reik Std
------------------------
1496 Total

Therefore, Team Green beat Dreadlord by 1254 VPs.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Special congrats go out to Team Green.  They won the TDG 2.0 challenge by a mere 112 VPs!


I for one had a great time with this TDG.  At this point I am glad it is over because it took a lot of work!

I know that I learned a lot.  We will get into after action comments and lessons learned in a little bit.

However, for now, let’s just savor the victories.   Post your thoughts on the TDG, your favorite moments, and how you feel at the moment!

Also-  a shout out for Dreadlord for playing as our opponent.  He was a true gentlemen during all this.  And, like you, was very patient with me and the process.

 :::cheers:::
HHG

Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 07, 2012, 05:12:11 AM
Fantastic job done by everyone! Thanks guys and especially to you holy hand grenade as it is obvious that it was extremely lots of work. Congrats to team Green well played.. and congrats go dreadlord for being a very tough nut to crack.
Title: Sv: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 07, 2012, 05:37:08 AM
Great game! Congrats to both teams, and I applaud you HHG for during such at great job in making all this possible.


***Update***

Combat Versus Team Blue

Blue has-  Savage Beasts on the TGM, who also suffers from x2 Plague of Rust.
Purple has-  Enchanted Blades, Glittering Robes on the Warriors, and suffers from a Curse of Anheir.

Warriors make their Fear test.

The TGM issues a challenge.  The Metal Sorc accepts.  The Dreadlord makes way to the STank.

I6 TGM  7 attacks,  6 hits.  Metal Sorc dies, 3 points of Overkill.

I5 Warriors on the Knights-  no effect.

I3     Knights on the Warriors- 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound.  2 Warriors die.
I3     Horses-  no effect.
I3     Eng Comm-  1 hit, 1 wound, no save.  1 Warrior dies.
I3     Steam Gun on the Warriors-  7 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save, 1 Warrior dies. 
ASL Dreadlord.  4 attacks on the STank.  4 attacks, 4 hits, 4 unsaved wounds which multiply into 11!  STank dies.  Holy shit!  Did I just witness that?


Empire:            7 wounds.  Charge.  Rear.             
Dark Elves:      10 wounds.  Standard.   

Empire loses by 1.  TGM makes the Break test.  The Knights fail.  They turn tail and run 5” away.

Here is how the combat looks at the end:
HHG[/size]


Hi hhg, doesn't matter much now, but that combat resolution might be a bit off, as the overkill bonus wasnt counted in. I think we should have won by 2.

Cheers!

Sendt fra min GT-I9000 med Tapatalk2

Title: Re: Sv: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 07, 2012, 05:49:04 AM
Hi hhg, doesn't matter much now, but that combat resolution might be a bit off, as the overkill bonus wasnt counted in. I think we should have won by 2.

Damn.  I tried my best to avoid mistakes but when you are doing it via pencil and paper little things are easy to miss (in that case it was 3 wounds and 3 overkill and I forgot one of the 3s...).  I knew you guys would keep me straight.   :wink:

I don't think I will ever do a double-battle again.  Not only was it twice the work, but it exponentially increased the amount of stuff to keep track of.  Working against another opponent also added another layer of complexity.

Based on the fun I had though and the things I learned, I have no regrets. 

I think I need a several week break though before we launch the next TDG.  (I have some Empire models that need to be put together/painted that are begging for my attention....)
Title: Sv: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 07, 2012, 06:26:15 AM
Cant blame you for missing at detail or two. Considering how much I miss during a single game with actual models, Im surpriced how accurately these tdg perform.

Again great job! And when/if you feel like taking another swing, we will love having you in the gamemaster seat :))

Sendt fra min GT-I9000 med Tapatalk2

Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 07, 2012, 07:48:14 AM
I also want to apologize to hhg and team blue that i left the boat in a critical moment but you guys did great without me.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: grifter on October 07, 2012, 07:53:31 AM
Wow, what a ride! Fantastic job HHG!

I don´t want to pat our own backs to much, but I think with average dice both teams would have had this in the bag much earlier.

Really excited about some feedback from the Dreadlord, if he´s willing to give some. Awesome (and dreadful) opponent!

Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 07, 2012, 08:37:51 AM
Another thing team blue should have 125 more vic points as bsb and ick standards were recaptured by the tgm...i think the points for standards are only granted when the enemy holdsthem in his claws at the end of the game...green still wins ...but by a pubic hairs width
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: SevenSins on October 07, 2012, 10:41:21 AM
This has been great fun and quite interesting, tempted to dig out my dark elves, and in testing a TGM too   :icon_wink:

A solid cheers to HHG (and dreadlord) for doing this  :::cheers:::
Title: Sv: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 07, 2012, 11:16:22 AM
Another thing team blue should have 125 more vic points as bsb and ick standards were recaptured by the tgm...i think the points for standards are only granted when the enemy holdsthem in his claws at the end of the game...green still wins ...but by a pubic hairs width

Also, vanilla knights should not have fleed as we won combat, thats 110 points. on the other hand, im unsure if the bsb counts as recaptured when it was killed by magic and therefor not seized.

Sendt fra min GT-I9000 med Tapatalk2

Title: Re: Sv: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 07, 2012, 11:21:49 AM
Another thing team blue should have 125 more vic points as bsb and ick standards were recaptured by the tgm...i think the points for standards are only granted when the enemy holdsthem in his claws at the end of the game...green still wins ...but by a pubic hairs width

Also, vanilla knights should not have fleed as we won combat, thats 110 points. on the other hand, im unsure if the bsb counts as recaptured when it was killed by magic and therefor not seized.

Sendt fra min GT-I9000 med Tapatalk2

Vanilla Knights never died so those points were never in question.  Note, they are still on the "end of game" graph.

As for Fandir, I think you are stuck in a different edition.....maybe last edition?  As far as I can tell in 8th, you capture it, the points are yours.   :unsure:

Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Noght on October 07, 2012, 11:45:55 AM
Well done Sir!  Bravo!  Simply Amazing!   :eusa_clap:
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: zifnab0 on October 07, 2012, 11:47:41 AM
I'm quite surprised we were able to pull out the win.  Good work team green!

And thanks again HHG for all of your hard work.  I think in the future you should let the team 'generals' take some of the effort.  Have them conduct the voting threads and report the results to you.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 07, 2012, 12:43:16 PM
I am a bit worried about winning as i personally tend to learn more when losing.  Will check about standards and you might be correct if so i learned another thing
Title: Sv: Re: Sv: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 07, 2012, 01:51:15 PM
Another thing team blue should have 125 more vic points as bsb and ick standards were recaptured by the tgm...i think the points for standards are only granted when the enemy holdsthem in his claws at the end of the game...green still wins ...but by a pubic hairs width

Also, vanilla knights should not have fleed as we won combat, thats 110 points. on the other hand, im unsure if the bsb counts as recaptured when it was killed by magic and therefor not seized.

Sendt fra min GT-I9000 med Tapatalk2

Vanilla Knights never died so those points were never in question.  Note, they are still on the "end of game" graph.

well i got that wrong, i read fled as fleing.

  For the banner incl. battle banner, it only counts towards vp if seized = bearer killed in cc or by breaking from combat.
S
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Friar Metick on October 07, 2012, 02:20:08 PM
 :eusa_clap: Well done everyone. Special thanks to HHG you need to take a well deserved break. Your patience was put to a big test.  :-D Dreadlord was an awesome opponent, he really caught us out several times and his dice rolls were killers. :-o Team Green, great job thanks for listening and valuing different opinions on strategy. Not listening to me at the right times was our best move. :icon_lol: Team Blue, you guys did a great job and good communication was a key to your success.
For me I think I met my goals of seeing a double stank list work, seeing how the lore of Beasts and Heavens affected our games since I don't usually use them with an empire list. I would say this TDG solidified my belief that Empire cavalry are a must in every competitive list we can muster. They are the 1+ core and special troops we can bring in my humble opinion. Combine them with our war machines and we have the ability to hit hard from afar, charge fast and hit hard when we have to with the cav, and out maneuver most armies we go up against. Our opponents have tough decisions to make - sit back and get hammered, or move up and get hit hard with a cav charge or out manuevered with small units of nilla knights and demigryphs. I like what we can bring to the table.
Congrats again to everyone and thanks HHG and Dreadlord for doing this. Let's go have a beer now. :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Eighty on October 07, 2012, 06:16:24 PM
what a nail biter! when that tank went down to 11 (eleven  :eusa_sick: ) wounds i thought that game was a goner!

I cant help but wonder if Darklord had accepted the final challenge with his general - what would of happened then!

gg everyone, cant wait to see the next one HHG (but take a break eh you deserve it  :::cheers::: )
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 07, 2012, 07:57:31 PM
A couple of other people I want to thank-  Fandir, Noght and Zif.  Those three were a huge help to me in between the decisions the forum made.  They are a key part of your victories because they kept you on track, pinged me on the rules, and made this all possible.  So, thanks again you three for your support.   :::cheers:::

--------------------------------------------------------

So, lessons learned, after action and all that.

I have some of my own thoughts but I am going to wait to post em. 

What I would like you to comment on-

What was one key thing you learned?

What was the one thing you would have done different in your team?

What did you see that you liked that would do again in the future (from either team)?

Which list do you think would do better in a tournament, Green or Blue?



------------------------------------------------

To start us off, I asked Dreadlord to answer the above questions and give a little feedback and what his strategy and thinking were as the battle went along for your insight.


From the Dreadlord-

Against Team Blue, I really didn’t like the idea of facing the double tanks.  When I saw you were going to run them on the hill near the circle as a defense against my Searing Doom, I decided to place my Execs over there to cause havoc.  I planned to camp the ruins and hoped the Execs would keep you occupied and out of the center.  I knew I couldn’t lose my Warrior horde-  too many points tied up into it.

Things were going well, until you decided to ignore my Execs and make a dash to the center.  I couldn’t bring them back to the center quick enough.

My one crucial mistake was moving the Warriors up close to the ICK so the TGM was in range of Fate of Bunja.  I used all my PD up on other things and never even tried to cast the spell that turn….  The net result-  my Warriors were overextended.  Once you tied up the horde I couldn’t use Searing Doom anymore and your mobility got to me. 

Against Team Green, I underestimated the devastation of the Helblasters.  Again, I wanted to camp the ruins and thought the range and cover from the ruins would keep the Blasters less effective.  My plan was to Spirit Leech them at range.  My Power Dice got tied up in other things and I never really put a dent in them.

Despite my magic advantage, your ranged firepower and Comets really tore me up.  If we had a replay, I would pay more respect to them.

I either need to beef up my Lvl 4 bunker or play it more conservative in moving it.  In both games I lost its protection.  Having to move the Lvl 4 over to the horde hampered my options.

What did I learn?  Hmm.  I play HHG’s Empire all the time and already had a healthy respect for armour saves.  I am sure you noticed my anti-armor capability.  I learned that taking out Helblasters are a top priority.  I also learned that I need to be  more patient.  I think in both games I got a little cocky and over-extended and it cost me.

One thing I would have done different?  In both games, I avoided the early easy mega-nukes and used Rust and other spells instead, thinking I would have time for the nukes later.  I never had a chance in the later rounds to cast a boosted Searing Doom to whip out a significant amount of your combat power.  In the future, I think I will kill juicy targets early so I won’t get caught in later rounds.  Magic is great, but when your army depends on it, you have to get your licks in early.

What would I do again in the future?  I used to run a big block of Corsairs and switched to the Spears with the Dreadlord and the Exec Axe with the ASF banner.  I liked what it did and will probably mess around with it in the future.

Which Empire list would do better in a Tournament?  I think Blue’s list is an all-around solid list and will win most scenarios.  The Green will do better in some and worse in others.  If your opponent can stay out of the Helblaster’s range, he will be taking away a big portion of your combat power.

Overall I had a blast.  I was honored to face off against you and you put up one hell of a fight.  Your new Empire book has given you lots of toys and options.  Even though I lose a lot to HHG, I like the fact that his lists have less ranged than they used to and he has no issues with throwing down with me in CC.  Makes for lots of fun battles. 

 :::cheers:::
Dreadlord
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Noght on October 07, 2012, 08:00:34 PM
Kudos to Dreadlord.   :eusa_clap:

I want his dice right now!
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: George on October 07, 2012, 09:06:32 PM
Thanks HHG....and Dreadlord

I really enjoy doing these.

I learnt to focus on the right units. I would have likely chased the execs, or at least committed units near them and not ended up with enough combined power when it was needed in the middle.

I like how team blue worked, our communication was good and people's thoughts were taken on board. The only decision I would really change in the game is grapeshotting the shades instead of hiding from them. We still lost the cannons and never really threatened them.

One thing I would do again my own games is to try take out targets of opportunity...i.e. sending all firepower at the metal mage's bunker. Sometimes people seem to always get lucky, but in reality you have to make your own luck and take the oppotunities presented.

I think team blue's list would fair better in a tournament....except down here in aus with our soft comp setup it would likely be rejected and need to be resubmitted.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: grifter on October 07, 2012, 10:43:42 PM
First of all, thanks to HHG for organizing this shindig, thanks to the Dreadlord for being a fearsome opponent, thanks to the team captains for their leaderhsip, and thanks to everyone for participating! What a fun and exciting battle(s)!

What was one key thing you learned?

I learned so many rules minutiae, it´s not even funny! My main lesson is probably to take the time to look up certain rules before assuming they work a certain way.

Tactically, the DD management and the minutiae of challenges/make way have been the most fascinating (also the part I was the most quiet during, noncoincidentally  :smile2: ).

Strategically, I think the main lesson is to not eff around. I think the Dreadlord didn´t go for our throat decisively enough and it cost him in the end, as he (kinda) pointed out himself, while we pretty much stuck to our plan from beginning to end and I think it helped us weather some, at times, staggering dice rolling.

What was the one thing you would have done different in your team?

The lone Demigryph charging the Execs instead of the (former) Spear-Bunker is my personal grievance and I wish I would have posted in time to prevent it.
Also, the Reiksguard should have probably not overrun towards the middle after killing the Dark Riders...I think we got a bit cocky there and didn´t think the Hydra would win it´s combat against the Demigryphs to (literally) bite us in the behind, and it put us in an awkward position for the endgame.

What did you see that you liked that would do again in the future (from either team)?
I think 2 HBVG+Technician, STank, LVL4 Heavens Mage is pretty much the strongest backbone an Empire army can have right now, fill out the rest of the army as you wish. Harmonic Convergence and Meteor just synergize so very well with the HBVG and STank, it´s hard to imagine not running this combo in serious play.

It´s also nice to see Vanilla Knights still working as well as they did here; should have definitely included some in my list proposal!

Which list do you think would do better in a tournament, Green or Blue?

I think the Green list would do better because of the HBVG+Heavens combo. I´d try to squeeze in a second STank though, removing 1 Vanilla Knights + 1 Demigryphs.

I´m still very suspect on the Lore of Beasts, and the lack of HBVG in the Blue list keeps it from taking top spot. Also not sold on the TGM with Runefang, I just think those points could be better spent in other areas.

Again, thanks to everyone, expecially HHG! Looking forward to the next one, though I can absolutely understand your need for a break.  :biggriin:
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 08, 2012, 10:51:59 AM
What was one key thing you learned?
Make a plan...and stick to it and don´t be afraid of the enemy when you make that plan.At the beginning of the game there was little focus on what was the plan killing the witch....ok with the stanks on the hill...ok. But there weren´t really plans what to do with the Reiksguard or the ICK or our chaff units this resulted in the Reiksguard riding around a bit and collecting flowers while the battle raged on. We should have planned what would be the perfect match for each of our units, what we think the dreadlords targets will be and how we can spoil his plans with ours. So we ended up not using our list to the full potential.

That said there are lots of minor things I learned not only rules stuff like...the stank can waddle through terrain without issues as long as he is not charging would have helped getting on that hill. Banners always count once you get them in combat. Once more being impressed by the BSB Captasus. Magic....magic is great but no game winner and can put a lot of pressure on yourself if you rely too much on it to win the game.

What was the one thing you would have done different in your team?

From turn one ride hard with the reiksguard and the icknights to get into contact with the metal witch or at least use the reiksguard in a different manner also I think beast magic wasn´t really that fantastic until the very last two turns...where it turned the game but the comets of team green really did this in a more reliable less dangerous to ones own kind of way. Well Wyssans is great but the mage should be on something flying or faster to keep up with the rest of the army he was too slow as we played him.

What did you see that you liked that would do again in the future (from either team)?
Blue
The good placement of characters, always always always pregame start check where his characters are in his units and figure out what matchups you want for your guys and if there are ways to make use of the make way rule. Also using the mobility of fast units to change the location and leave elite units of the enemy stranded with little use.
Green
Damn...those hellblasters rocked I am considering in comp heavy environments to go with a single stank and double blasters one cannon on top and you have one scary shooting phase. Overall the game of team green looked like there was fighting all over the place all the time.  

Which list do you think would do better in a tournament, Green or Blue?I think in an all comers Blue would do better especially with another lore of magic. That said I think Dreadlord would have ripped us a new one if we would not have known all the magical items.....the TGM with the runefang would have gone for the spear horde,.....and would have ended up as minced meat after the I8 executioners axe have sliced and diced him.

Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: zakalwe on October 08, 2012, 12:09:17 PM
First off, a big thankyou to HHG for running another awesome TDG.
Big thanks and respect to dreadlord for being a wonderful opponent and putting us through our paces. It was a very interesting army to see and that dreadlord/bsb combo was scary to behold. Would it not also be scarier in an executioner horde? or too many eggs in one basket.


What was one key thing you learned?

Hmm, tricky. NEVER to underestimate a DE magic phase. Even a double 1 winds allowed the DE 4 spell attempts!

What was the one thing you would have done differently in your team?

Turn 2 i would have moved the Stank up to get it into a position to be a threat. Though the cannon shots are a good way of hydra killing, i think being able to charge the DE lines reliably in T3 would have been useful.

What did you see that you like, that would do again in the future?

twin HBVG and basic engineers in team green, though i like to give them pistols at least normally. I know points were tight.
More demigryph knights, i only have 3 myself and they are great, enjoy seeing them in larger numbers.

With team blue, i liked the idea of a beasts buffed TGM though he didn't get a great time to shine, i look forward to seeing how it does in the future. Also the captasus bsb, again i liked it and look forward to seeing how it works in other games.

Which list would do better in a tournament, Green or Blue?

Hmm tough, Blue has more robustness in the twin Stanks and the archer mage bunkers are more mobile, though a little more fragile. The 3 cannons are good for counter battery fire. I think it would do very well in most games.

I like the green list for reasons stated, but the HBVG's are vulnerable to long range counter battery fire or ambushers/scouts. Loosing both HBVG early would be a massive blow.

For this reason i think blue would do better against a varied range of opponents and be more competitive.


Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Wojownik on October 08, 2012, 02:01:10 PM
BIG thanks to HHG for all effort  :eusa_clap:. Hope you didn't get tiered and next TDG will be soon.  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 08, 2012, 10:41:47 PM
I decided to go through every thread of the TDG to comment on things that I learned, new insights/tactics I found, or rules that were clarified for me (or remain uncertain).

Rules

--Tanks do not take Dangerous Terrain tests just rolling around.
--Tanks DO take Dangerous Terrain tests if they end up charging with their Random Move.
--Tanks have to stay 1” away from all impassable terrain and units unless they can get a charge off, then they revert to the rules for charging and can “cut corners” to get a charge off like other units.
--No Terror checks from Random Movers.  Sorry STank-  no one is going to run from you!
--Movement backwards on units with odd M rates have an advantage of rounding up.  For instance, I always moved units with 5 Move 2.5 inches instead of the full 3 inches they rate.
--Units get only a 90 degree free turn when they declare a charge.  Normally it doesn’t come into play, but it is worth keeping in mind when multiple charge/flee angles are weird.
--Casualties are taken off evenly from the front row when it is the last row remaining.


New Insights (of mine…maybe you knew them already!)

--I saw that the forum used spells like Iceshard Blizzard and Curse of Anheir quite a bit to get the -1 to hit modifier against the bad guys.  I like the tactic and will probably use it more in the future.
--Most other players play it safer in the magic phase than I normally do.  If I want a spell to go off, I am not afraid to toss dice at it.  I do gets lots of IF and Miscasts…but usually I am pretty lucky with rolling on the table.  I might try a few different things in the future to see if it works out for me.
--I like Heavens more than Beasts.  Savage Horrors is great if it goes off, but I think Heavens gives you a lot more flexibility, especially early on.
--Dual Helblaster or dual STanks are just plain nasty.  Not for friendly games. 
--The Steam Gun on the tank can be used in unique ways against infantry.  I usually think of the grind and the cannon when maneuvering it, but a well-placed steam blast can really kill some models.


Strategic or Tactical Thoughts

--This TDG just reinforced my belief that strength in arms and steel is greater than strength in magic.  You might be able to take away an armour point or two…but in the end game close combat strength is always reliable and will not be as fickle as a Winds of Magic roll or a misfire result on a Warmachine.  Of course there is always the Break test, but Empire has ways of putting these rolls into our favor.
--Placement of characters, especially when you and the opponent have a bunch of them, is a key aspect of the game that I really need to increase my skill in.  I learned quite a few little tricks in this TDG that I am going to use in my own games.
--The Engineer behind the Executioners to run them down (in Game Green) was a master move.  I plan to keep that in mind for future games. 
--One of the things I like about the new 8th Edition rules is the combat reform.  I learned in this TDG that hitting a unit in the flank also really screws with their ability to adapt to combat situations because they can’t reform.  This really hurt the Dark Elves in both games.  When Empire’s mobility and extra units on the battlefield came into play late in the games it killed Dreadlord’s advantage in CC with his buffed troops.


TDG Thoughts

--How to use blockers/diverters is one of the most debated options.  Some people are willing to let the enemy get into long range charges (10+) while others feel less comfortable.  Some are more willing to sacrifice units than others.  Very interesting dynamic.  I lean towards the conservative camp and don’t like allowing my opponents any chance of ruining my plan with a crazy lucky charge roll.  I think it comes down to play style.

--The next most debated topic is how to use Power Dice.  Lots of different ways to play it…one of the reasons I think I like the 8th Edition system.   

--Multiple minds are better than one.  It amazed me time and time again throughout the TDG on what the forum could do when debating the options and coming up with the best one.  Of course, there is also a benefit of having the time to study the problem hard and make sure nothing is missed (especially when someone could crank out the Mathhammer to find the best probabilities of success). 
      I think the best Generals can do this quickly in a real game.  I need to practice on this.  I find myself making simple mistakes in games that I would never make if I had seen all the variables correctly.  One of my thoughts is to try some Speed-hammer with friends.  Kind of like speed chess-  you have to make your moves and choices quickly (maybe in some kind of time limit…).  I think this might help out in decision-making when the game is slowed down to normal speed.

-----------------------------------------------

Make sure you post your thoughts!  Either answering the questions I posed or tossing out lessons learned like I did.  This is one of the most important parts of the TDG, IMHO.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: MrAbyssal on October 08, 2012, 11:29:35 PM
Thanks again HHG. It's been a great experience. I mainly focussed on Team Blue so I may have to go back and read through Team Green. Has Dreadlord gone through the TDG thread since the game has finished to get any insight on how we made our decisions?

It's been great seeing how the other forum members on here play. Unfortunately I wasn't able to contribute as much as I probably could in this one though I think most of the people in Team Blue came to similar decisions anyway so we didn't have to debate too much, more just refine. I think our biggest mistake was in the early turns with the Reiksguard as we completely forgot the original intention to move them towards the centre. On the upside they ended up in prime position to save our bacon and take the Executioners out before they could join combat the big combat on the last turn. I think without that it probably would have swung to Dreadlord.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Friar Metick on October 09, 2012, 02:29:00 AM
What was one key thing you learned?

One of the things that I learned that I will take away from the TDG was that the WP's can keep casting prayers even if they fail to get one of them off. I have been playing it wrong since the new book came out. Not anymore.

What was the one thing you would have done different in your team?

One thing I would have done different based on the way I play the game was to focus on taking out units. What I mean is when I choose to get rid of an enemy unit, I will focus my magic/fire power on it to take it out or set it up to take it out with a charge on my next turn. During the course of the game I felt like we didn't totally commit to taking out the small units or cleaning up the loose ends when we had the chance. By turn four Dreadlord had a lot of partial units on the table so we had very little in the way of victory points at that point. To our credit we did clean them up but a couple of bad dice rolls and it could have been very different.

What did you see that you liked that would do again in the future (from either team)?

I did like the way Heavens worked for team green. I would like to use it a few times with my army and see how I feel about using it in a tournament.

Which list do you think would do better in a tournament, Green or Blue?

In our area the green list would not qualify for most tournaments with luthor Huss in it. If he was replaced with a WP I would not hesitate to use the list. While I think the blue team list would be effective it too would not qualify with the comp with two stanks. Replace one with a HVG and engineer along with some other upgrades with the extra points left over and I would use the blue list too. Out of the two I think the green list would do better in a tournament. A lot of players would go after the archers/wizard unit in the blue list and try to wipe it out quick. For me that is too much risk to take with my wizard, not enough protection.

I have noticed as more 8th ed. army books come out we are seeing the trend of special/named characters not being broken which has changed the comp some TO's are using. So in the future the luthor Huss list may be on the table at a tournament.  :-)

Again much thanks to my teammates, HHG, and dreadlord for an awesome experience.  :biggriin:  :eusa_clap:  :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: zifnab0 on October 09, 2012, 12:28:03 PM
What was one key thing you learned?

Saving combat for later rounds.  Most of my games tend towards combat early with the combats drawing out for several turns.  We set up some devastating combo-charges that really turned the course of the game.

Somehow I never see these during my normal games.

What was the one thing you would have done different in your team?

I think it was on turn 3 or 4 where we broke our "trap" for the spearmen horde.  I think we could have won eaerlier if we had maintained that trap.

What did you see that you liked that would do again in the future (from either team)?

I liked playing against another opponent and having team "Generals" command the army.

Which list do you think would do better in a tournament, Green or Blue?

I think Blue, because the dual steam tank is pretty devastating.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Bildskoene Bengtsson on October 09, 2012, 01:08:28 PM
What was one key thing you learned?

No matter how bad a matchup is and no matter how bad you roll your dice you can still win the game if you make enough decisisons right. I'm still in disbelief that we managed to win this game, and even more so that both teams did. had Dreadlord been a little more aggressive with his magic this game could have been over in Turn 3. 2-3 boosted Searing Dooms would have made short work of our STanks.

What was the one thing you would have done different in your team?

As some of my team mates have pointed out, we really chickened out with the Reiksguard. As it turned out it worked quite well but that mistake could have costed us dearly.


What did you see that you liked that would do again in the future (from either team)?

I have to say lore of heavens impressed me. I've used it before but not on a lvl 4. Will definatly give a lvl 4 a go in my next game. Also dual STanks. Must buy myself another one.

Which list do you think would do better in a tournament, Green or Blue?

I've never played in a tournament so my opinion here is moot. Personally I'd rather play the green list. Love me some Helblasters.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: mottdon on October 09, 2012, 04:17:06 PM
First off, thank you so much for all of your hard work on this TDG, HHG!  I was so excited, I got several raised eyebrows form my wife!  Please take time off and rest up your fingers while practicing your dice throwing!  :icon_smile:  Whenever you want to do this again, you can count me in!

What was one key thing you learned?

Pre-game positioning is crutial.  Okay, so I already knew this, but this game was a prime example of why this is so important.  I also learned much from the Stanks ability to move through a forrest.  I've never had to face that circumstance before but now I feel as though I will be fully prepared for it should it come up in a future game.

What was the one thing you would have done different in your team?

Get the Reiksguard in the game earlier.  Their positioning took them out of the game.  Sure they came through in the 9th hour, but they should have had a much greater inpact than they did.  Also, our knights 2 unit didn't do what they were intended.  They were mostly chasing after ghosts the whole game.  By taking out the harpies, they could have allowed our Stank to get into combat  earlier, saving so many attacks from coming at the ICKs.  While I wasen't overly pleased with the Lore of Beasts preformance, considering how dominant the DE should have been, I thought we managed to get enough spells through that caused some havoc.  I would still probably pick a different Lore in the future.  Oh- and change dice!
 
What did you see that you liked that would do again in the future (from either team)?

The bunker seemed to be an appropriate size considering how many we had left at the end of the game.  I liked running dual Stanks.  They were such a huge threat (both in and out of combat, something a HBVG can't boast) that they diverted much attention from our other units.

Which list do you think would do better in a tournament, Green or Blue?

I would be more comfortable running Team Blue's roster in a tournament.  I feel as though it has more flexibility for various armies.  Both are good lists and would definitely be successful, but for my play style the Blue list would be the way to go.  It has been proven to ride a wave of luck, good for enemy, bad for us, and still come out on top even against a team specifically geared to cause us the most problems.

Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Harshey on October 09, 2012, 06:09:17 PM
1. This was great. Lots of rules clarifications which was nice to see for everybody's knowledge in a practical application. Hopefully some of the rules will stick better

2. I never played the comet getting the same damage to all units, but this is a good clarification, and faster too.

3. Dark elves' magic phase is brutal, and we got off super easy. If dreadlord had more of the damage spells both teams could have been crushed by turn two.

4. 1+ armour is the greatest! But too much of a good thing can be bad.  I do think that both lists were missing a block of troops that would have been great for the ranks they can provide. Plus, if our opponent has tools that can deal with armour quickly, it is good to have some units that are less prone to those attacks.

5. Looking back at our opponent's list, for team green, since we had enough chaff between the knights and the demigryphs (I use them more as chaff), we should have deployed our HBVGs dead center to open up their firing range more. These could have been used to keep the hydra in check, which was a problem for our army (and almost everybody's). Then we could have thrown our large knight buses out on the flanks to keep them out of range of spells for the first turn and then had them ride hard up the flanks. But our game went well...

6. You can't count on the comet, but what you can do is pin a unit into combat and drop one nearby. What did our comet have, six tokens at the end?  There was that one turn when dreadlord turned his units around to reengage our center. If he had run away to the corner with everything, I think he would have won.

7. The stank is great, two is better, but how much? I'd I was going to pick one of these lists, I'd probably take green's, but I'd drop a HBVG and a few points elsewhere to get a block of troops (doesn't matter which ones really). As others said, close combat is how you win this game so green has too many points in war machines, and two Stanks for blue is two units that can't run down enemy units (big downside of the stank)

8. Thanks HHG for running with this. I thought it was great! Now my question is, what should we do next?
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 09, 2012, 07:17:21 PM
What was one key thing you learned?
Everything in its time - I rarely give much attention to the fact that you only play for 6 rounds. The TDG provides a paused form of play that encourages you to do so. I think we would have lost the game, had we not carefully considered that the end result matters more than staying ahead. 


What was the one thing you would have done different in your team?
Moved our Steamy1 up to fry the executioners when at 6 Steam points, and in the same turn move in the Reiksguard for the big spear unit.


What did you see that you liked that would do again in the future (from either team)?
Going to use comet some more, it has great destructive capability, but even a greater effect in disrupting your enemy's plans.   

Which list do you think would do better in a tournament, Green or Blue?
Blue for all-around, as the green 24" killing zone might just simply be avoided by some armies. Blue would suffer from armour negating armies, like the skaven list just posted by Lord Solar Plexus.

Again, thx HHG for this great experience :::cheers:::
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 09, 2012, 09:30:59 PM
I figured at least Noght and Zif would get a kick out of this pic.  These are the blood-red "killer dice."


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/Warhammerxxx003.jpg)



And you think I would have learned my lesson....but no.  I let my friend use them against my Empire in our Escalation league yesterday.  What was I thinking?
 :eusa_wall:

His Black Knights charged my thick ICK block, picked up Speed of Light by touching the magical waters of a River of Light, and produced to not only break them and catch them, but Overrun into my STank.  All it took was two close combat rounds for his tricked out Vampire Lord to kill the steel behemoth.  Giving him time to turn back to the center, hit my Greatswords (fighting for their lives) in the rear and grind them into a bloody mess.
(I am glad I was not taking pictures and notes to do a battle report...it would have been embarassing!)

Unless I pick up a Warriors of Chaos army or something, those dice are officially retired.   :unsure:
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Ads on October 09, 2012, 10:54:19 PM
I think you should just not let your opponent use them HHG
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: zifnab0 on October 10, 2012, 12:54:16 AM
I figured at least Noght and Zif would get a kick out of this pic.  These are the blood-red "killer dice."


(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w495/DaHoffmans/Warhammerxxx003.jpg)
(http://www.minecraft.no/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/hammer_time.gif)

I think next time you should use the same set of dice for both players.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 10, 2012, 09:42:36 AM
I think you should just not let your opponent use them HHG

He is a new player building his forces and supplies.  Although next time he will get a different set of dice...especially now that we are in the semi-finals in the Escalation League and I may have to play the Vamps again in the finals if he beats O&G!

I think next time you should use the same set of dice for both players.

That is a thought....but to me-  dice are like models.  I have different sets that go with different themes and armies.  I will always use my Empire dice for our Empire rolls.  We haven't "lost" yet so they haven't let us down so far! 

The blood red I usually use for  bad guys.  For instance, I used them for Bruiser and they didn't seem that deadly in the first TDG.  Regardless, I promise they are retired from TDG-play.  I think I will use my blue-gold for the next TDG...unless we fight Lizzies or O&G and then the greenies have to come out.   :icon_cool:

Start thinking about what you want to face next.  I will solicit input here in a few days when our after action dies down,
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 10, 2012, 12:09:13 PM
Start thinking about what you want to face next.  I will solicit input here in a few days when our after action dies down,

Skavens would make an interesting opponent :dry:
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: csjarrat on October 10, 2012, 12:16:56 PM
Congrats guys, well done! How about using an online dice roller for the next one?
Invisible castle seems decent, i know there are a few more out there too
Just keeps everythhing nice and open for everyone
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 10, 2012, 12:25:16 PM
Congrats guys, well done! How about using an online dice roller for the next one?
Invisible castle seems decent, i know there are a few more out there too
Just keeps everythhing nice and open for everyone
I have no need for this, but what ever is easiest for HHG.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 10, 2012, 02:01:37 PM
Skaven indeed....if you need an experienced super duper Skaven General Aldaris springs to my mind.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: mottdon on October 10, 2012, 05:34:38 PM
VC's give me the most problems.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 10, 2012, 05:39:25 PM
Empire has some very good tools to deal with them is it a specific player with a specific army or are you regularly getting your ass handed by different lists?
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: mottdon on October 10, 2012, 05:57:19 PM
It is a specific list themed around ghouls.  Everything...ghouls...(throw in the occasional terrorgheist and vampire)!  when you have that many poison attacks coming at you...sucks.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: csjarrat on October 10, 2012, 06:02:50 PM
beastmen are pretty uncommon around my part of the woods, think a lot of players might never have played them, or only very rarely.
might be a good one as a learning exercise for the community?
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: mottdon on October 10, 2012, 06:06:32 PM
Hmmm.  I've never played a Beastmen army.  That would certainly be interesting, but I don't know that it would be the toughest / most educational opponent.  Dwarfs could be a tough one...
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 10, 2012, 06:06:46 PM
Well....not if you have a witch hunter, lore of light, War altar and steam tanks at your disposal. Ghouls are rather expensive now flaming cannonballs can do some serious pain against those big ghouls as does the steam tank with flaming.

If you want to pm me his list and what you want to play and we can discuss how you can rip him apart.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: mottdon on October 10, 2012, 06:18:26 PM
Thanks, Fandir.  I'll do that after I get off work tonight. 

One thing that I think would be beneficial for people here is incorporating a couple of fast cav. units (Outriders or Pistoliers).  I'd like to see different general's ideas on how they'd utilize them.  But this would only happen vs certain armies.  (i.e. this wouldn't have any effect on some armies.)
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: carmaul on October 10, 2012, 07:35:23 PM
Thanks, Fandir.  I'll do that after I get off work tonight. 

I would suggest posting it as a new thread instead of a PM, with the VC army list and yours, so everyone can learn from the discussion.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: MrAbyssal on October 11, 2012, 02:17:51 AM
I'd like to see how Empire deals with hard VP denial lists. It seems the only thing I can't find a way to reliably deal with. The Ogre game was close but there was enough stuff for us to clear up that we could still get decent VPs without facing the Deathstar.

My friend runs a Demon list with a huge unit of Bloodletters, Large unit of Bloodcrushers with herald and Skulltaker and a Keeper of Secrets with Soulstealer or whatever the power that heals wounds for wounds done (combos with Thunderstomp too). Only chaff is 1-2 units of 5 Flesh Hounds, everything else is super rock hard and almost impossible to kill. Even if we don't run as a TDG would love some advice.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 11, 2012, 12:20:29 PM
I'd like to see how Empire deals with hard VP denial lists. It seems the only thing I can't find a way to reliably deal with. The Ogre game was close but there was enough stuff for us to clear up that we could still get decent VPs without facing the Deathstar.

My friend runs a Demon list with a huge unit of Bloodletters, Large unit of Bloodcrushers with herald and Skulltaker and a Keeper of Secrets with Soulstealer or whatever the power that heals wounds for wounds done (combos with Thunderstomp too). Only chaff is 1-2 units of 5 Flesh Hounds, everything else is super rock hard and almost impossible to kill. Even if we don't run as a TDG would love some advice.

Do you have the exact list you could send me?  I think it would be a good challenge. 

I would like to see if we can create an Empire list that is not specifically designed to face one army in the next TDG, however.  Not sure how I am going to run it yet...but I like the thought of the lists we run be viable against any tournament foe, not just the one we are currently facing.  I am hoping that since we have run one infantry and one cavalry heavy TDG we can have some kind of mix for the next one.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: SevenSins on October 11, 2012, 06:23:33 PM
Let's do a balanced list, mix of cav and inf, and maybe include a few specific wishes if anyone wants too, like the fast cav someone mentioned.
I for one is for a more MSU aproach for one (well more of small sized units.... Not minimum)
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 11, 2012, 06:27:54 PM
How about my Averlander list?

General on Pegasus
Mage lvl 4 (not sure about magic either light, metal or shadow)
Captasus
Sigmarpriest on horse
Luthor (or another Sigmarpriest on horse)
40 halberdiers
Archer detch
Archer detch
9 IC Knights
30 greatswords
swords detch
swords detch
cannon
steam tank

rough around the edges I think this is it at 2500.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: mottdon on October 11, 2012, 09:43:09 PM
So, very mobile command, lots of detachment work, and basically 4 blocks (Halb, GS, ICKs, Stank).  This looks like a good build to me, I would like to see a HBVG in there, though.  Do you see the general/captain/priests jumping from unit to unit?  As for the mage, I would love to use light (Kinda burnt out on metal after the last one and, personally, I've used shadow much more than light.)

I hope this is not getting too ahead of ourselves, HHG!  Don't mean to push, just really like plotting!  Take as much time as you need!
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: MrAbyssal on October 11, 2012, 10:31:26 PM
I'd like to see how Empire deals with hard VP denial lists. It seems the only thing I can't find a way to reliably deal with. The Ogre game was close but there was enough stuff for us to clear up that we could still get decent VPs without facing the Deathstar.

My friend runs a Demon list with a huge unit of Bloodletters, Large unit of Bloodcrushers with herald and Skulltaker and a Keeper of Secrets with Soulstealer or whatever the power that heals wounds for wounds done (combos with Thunderstomp too). Only chaff is 1-2 units of 5 Flesh Hounds, everything else is super rock hard and almost impossible to kill. Even if we don't run as a TDG would love some advice.

Do you have the exact list you could send me?  I think it would be a good challenge. 

I would like to see if we can create an Empire list that is not specifically designed to face one army in the next TDG, however.  Not sure how I am going to run it yet...but I like the thought of the lists we run be viable against any tournament foe, not just the one we are currently facing.  I am hoping that since we have run one infantry and one cavalry heavy TDG we can have some kind of mix for the next one.

Not off the top of my head but I can pop into the local GW after work and make a list up to PM you. Being more than half a day ahead of you means you should get it before lunch time. Unfortunately I can't pick the actual player's brain as he's moved to a store about a 45 minute drive away but it's not an overly complex list. It'll just be a case of adjusting the numbers until it all fits.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 11, 2012, 11:44:21 PM
Well, we might as well talk about it now since input is drying up already on this TDG...

I had a couple of different ideas:

1.  Several of us post our all-comers Tournie list, do a vote, top one wins,
2.  We identify some key units that must be included in the list (by committee) such as 1 cannon, pistoliers, Halb block for example and then have people submit lists for the rest of the points.
3.  A modification of #2 above would be trying out a Griffon Formation as a foundation and then people fill in the rest of the points and submit lists.  At some point I want to do this one to explore the Griffon TDG-style.
4.  We could use one of this lists from this TDG to see how it does against a different opponent.
5.  ...any other option someone wants to submit.

Let me know what you think.

 :::cheers:::
HHG

Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Harshey on October 12, 2012, 02:50:59 AM
HHG, I like the idea of having a tourney list and using the same one a few times against either a) different armies, or b) same opponent, different scenarios.

The list itself isn't that important, as long as it is diverse.

Playing the non pitch battle scenarios is something that I know that I personally would like to improve upon. From what I've seen at tourneys, the top players know how to use their armies more effective on meeting objectives other than victory points.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: MrAbyssal on October 12, 2012, 03:14:20 PM
Am looking forward to the next one. I'd like to see a more MSU style list but Griffon Formation as a base could be good as well. It may reveal any weaknesses or ways to improve it and make it even more effective.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: mottdon on October 12, 2012, 09:03:11 PM
Well, we might as well talk about it now since input is drying up already on this TDG...

I had a couple of different ideas:

1.  Several of us post our all-comers Tournie list, do a vote, top one wins,
2.  We identify some key units that must be included in the list (by committee) such as 1 cannon, pistoliers, Halb block for example and then have people submit lists for the rest of the points.
3.  A modification of #2 above would be trying out a Griffon Formation as a foundation and then people fill in the rest of the points and submit lists.  At some point I want to do this one to explore the Griffon TDG-style.
4.  We could use one of this lists from this TDG to see how it does against a different opponent.
5.  ...any other option someone wants to submit.

Let me know what you think.

 :::cheers:::
HHG

I like the #3 idea.  The whole point of this for me is trying different play styles and then making adaptations for the particular scenarios and opponents you are facing.  The more strategies you have experience with, the better you will perform (theoretically).  I say we try out the established strategies first, then move to adaptations. 
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Windelov on October 13, 2012, 06:08:36 AM
What point limits are we talking? 2500? Like Mottdon, I like option number 3.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 13, 2012, 06:26:45 AM
What point limits are we talking? 2500? Like Mottdon, I like option number 3.

We will explore other armies sizes in the future, but for this one I am thinking of sticking with the 2500 format.
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Dnic on October 14, 2012, 09:48:25 AM
First, great TDG  :icon_biggrin:

I like option 3.
Actually i have a 2500 point inverted griffon formation liste, I have won the last 3 battles with, I will like to se used here :)
And it is build over the Principle of Balance & Infantry-Based Armies  :happy:
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 15, 2012, 02:29:07 AM
First, great TDG  :icon_biggrin:

I like option 3.
Actually i have a 2500 point inverted griffon formation liste, I have won the last 3 battles with, I will like to se used here :)
And it is build over the Principle of Balance & Infantry-Based Armies  :happy:

Alright, you gents have me convinced.

TDG 3 is going to use a Griffon Formation variant.  I will start the first post in a day or so to get us going.

 :::cheers:::
HHG
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on October 15, 2012, 06:21:05 AM
What about your well deserved break?
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 15, 2012, 08:29:18 AM
What about your well deserved break?

 :wink:

It will take a while for list inputs, etc to get finalized before the "work" starts again...
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: George on October 15, 2012, 10:38:19 PM
looking forward to the next one....though I am taking a well deserved break OS for a couple of weeks.....happy to join in when I back
Title: Re: Tactical Decision Game 2.7: The Climax
Post by: Holy Hand Grenade on October 21, 2012, 07:13:45 AM
The wait is over.

TDG 3.0 is posted. (http://warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=44083.msg753516#msg753516)