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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Topic started by: strollinthewoods on April 21, 2012, 12:24:43 PM

Title: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 21, 2012, 12:24:43 PM

The new book is out. The time of rumors is past us.. and instead of speculating, I now need to actually start thinking of how I am going to use the army of the Empire.

I think the empire is among the most versitile armies around. And that suits me very well. When I sit down and look at the options available I am almost overwhelmed
with all the interesting stuff routes you can decide to go with the army.

In this thread I will put down some of my initial thoughts about what  I personally am tinking about in my army.

Very early on after reading the new book, I realized that my General most likely will be a plain General of the Empire.  And the reason for it, is that he is the one hero that can be mounted on a pegasuss, and have enough points for the crown, and some protectve gear to go with it.

Different playstyles have different emphasis on what they try and accomplish. Look at the "play like woodelf" list here on these forums for intance. And cross reference that with Callissons exelent playstyle chart, and you see that its the playstyle more than what armie thats the really important thing to consider. One army may be better at a certian playstyle than others due to armie specific rules and inherent abilities, but thats still secondary the way I see it. While Im sitting and typing this, there is 3 tibetan terriers laying at my feet. And for those who know anything about Ceasar Millans philosophy when it comes to creating balanced dogs, is among other things adressing the dog, before the breed.

It may seem like a far fetched anology, but I am not looking at the empire book firstly as
"the empire book", but I look at it as a warhammer army, that I can use in the same manner I would another list. Then I am later forced to adapt to the breed, in the list when it comes to the different flavors between different armies.

In other words I have NO "rules" as to how empire is "supposed" to be played

So back to my general. I will mount him on a pegasuss. And I will do the same with my bsb.  This is first and formost so to help me get a solid grip of the movement phase in the game. Beeing able to
1. Quickly relocate force multipliers in space.
2. Be able to stop enemy movement with the Crown of command lord in a reliable manner- meaning I need to be able to follow whereever the lord goes with my bsb for the all important re-roll.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 21, 2012, 12:25:21 PM
This is eqactly the same stuff I did in my Dark elf list. And quite frankly the empire does it cheaper, and in some ways better.  You dont have accsess to the inverse wardsave, but you do have accsess to 1+ save with re-roll and some wardsave in addition to the crown- and more importantly the life lore to supplement your amry as a whole- and that means you have the ability to heal. Something the dark elfs does not.

One great thing about Pegauss mounts is their footprint. You can place them inside normal human and elfish infantry and they rank up inside the unit. Wheras mounted heroes on horses need to go along side it.  Might not be important you might think. But it really adds up if you go for many units, and space is something you actually need lots of in order to function well. Beeing able to put 2 mounted heroes in the front rank of a 5 man wide infatry block, instead of on on each side of the unit makes a rather big difference. Not only in space, but also when it comes to the perfomance of the unit . Few can strike back at the actual unit with only 1 model representing it in the frontrank.
This is great when conserving own units lost is just as important as inflicting wounds on the opponent.(you loose a lot of attacks also from your unit when you put in 2 heroes like this)

The Empire breed.
Options now available to me that I am not used to have, is beeing able to transfer my stubborn over to detachment units.  This makes the detacments not only able to act as redirectors and speedbumbs to postpone the order of fights, but it makes them able to actually go in front of a enemy unit, and pin them down in a way that makes you able to countercharge with the parent unit(or any other for that matter)

I also now have the option of using the countercharge rules of the infantry.
This goes very well with my tendancy to prefere beeing on the recieving end of a charge, instead of actually beeing the one who charges.

Empire the dog.
Still I can use the Crown lord as I am used to. And either put him in carrier units of knights or other stuff that can actually do some damage, and pin down a unit without much danger of breaking. - The chocobos looks like exelent carrier units.
I can still send him in alone to hold up really scary meat-grinder like units that my troops are inferior to in combat.

Putting this hero in front of units at an agle(like you would and eagle) is among my favorite moves to make, pinning them down in the movementphase, and having some hard hitting unit of your own ready that he knows will hit his flank if he tries to go into the crown lord.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 21, 2012, 12:25:59 PM

I say this- Its important when you make lists, and when you play that you realize that mounted heores, especially like a pegasuss lord, is likely to have the crown.- It belongs in the game and you need to adapt to it. There is losts of things you can do, but whining until the crown is banned from all lists is not one I would advice. Realizing the bsb is vital to his survival in combat is one thing to be aware of.  Its the same with deamons and the bloodthirster.  If you think in warcraft 3 terms it is very much like the Blade master and the shadow priest. You need to take down the healing shadow priest before you can actually kill the Blade. And its the same- go after the bsb before you put all your effort into killing of a lord kitted out just to survive.

What I was very much missing in the old book when I started thinking about starting up again with my empire, was a monster I dont care to much what kind of monster it is- thats thinking to much about the breed, no I was not happy that there did not seem to be a viable doggy like monster at all.- Im still refering to cesar millan if some are starting to get annoyed with my breed/dog talk all the time- You will either get it or you dont, but I do hope its the first. And its a real possiblity that i am yet again talking abit convoluted.=)

The old steam tank was NOT an viable option the way I saw it. The new one is not only viable-- its the way I see it awfully good. The nice thing about monsters is that they have quite a few uses in a normal game. They just walz over all kind of enemy chaff,
and can normally be counted on doing more damage than they take in return from normal infantry units- Meaning they can reliably break a infantry unit unsuported given enough time. They can be great force multipliers in combined combats, and are like chariots great units to clip in on corners of engaged units to bring lots of damage into a little contact surface.

Monsters are generally very good at beeing a viable counter ot other monsters.

Having units that can performe more than 1 task is great. And with the new steamtank you get more than we actually bargained for. Beeing able to choose not to engage in combats but roll around d6 and just use the breath weapon turn after turn after turn is a great option to have.  In my dark elf list, I often needed to use the breath weapon of the hydra to remove half of large steadfast bunker units. One might think its a waste of such a good breathweapon to use it on thigs like slaves, goblins and gnoblars, but if you dont have other means in your breed to to the job, then using the hydra breathweapon just might be the smart thing to do. At least thats was my solution. Against such units i would normally combine the hydra, and black dragon egg to more or less totally remove such a unit from the game instead of having it pin me down for days on end in close combat.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 21, 2012, 12:26:37 PM

The Steam Tank has what it needs to perform in most of the areas i need a monster to performe, and it does it very well. And in addition it goes beyond in certian areas and bring more to the table than most with its high armour, enourmous ammount of wounds, unbreakable and cannon.- combined with healing magic, the thing is probably more underpriced than the hydra. There I said it.

Im not used to having cannons, and even though I think they are just awfully great I will  be content with the one the steamtank brings to the table, and the only warmachine I will field is 1 hellblaster with an engineer. It will give me a great excuse to practice my modeling skills, and do an very important task in the army- reliably remove entire units of caff. Nothing as annoying than having to adapt your plans because you cant get rid of
diverters of your own.

Normally I would bring 2 lvl 1 mages to use up all my winds of magic dice on pure damage each round. And empire can do that very well. But they also have accsess to the life lore, among the best lores I can think of mostly due to the lore attribute, and the toughness spell. So instead of my normal approach i will spam lifebloom with the life lore on a lvl 3 mage. - The steam tank and pegasuss heroes all benefit greatly from having easy accsess to healing wounds lost.

I WILL bring flagelants in a unit of 18. With the old book I would have had 2 units of 18, were 1 counted as core. Now the core unit is gone, and instead I bring a unit of 3 chocobos. The vacum in the core fills itself with accsess to Inner circkle knights as core, so that turns out to be of no consern.

Again- flagelants do many of the things I look for in a unit.
It has high dmg output on small frontages.
It as accsess to hatred even without hero support.
It is reliable when it comes to panic, terror causers etc.
It has guaranteed damage vs a lot of different things thanx to striking on normal initiative-  This is one of they key aspects for me with this unit. It means it can do some serious hurt against most enemy monsters( a few I4 ones out there I need to look out for)  It also means it will be great against other Greatweapon units that strike last.
They can performe well against I3 knights.

The closest alternative in the empire linup would seem to be the greatswords, but they will performe horribly in many of the matchups I mentioned above.-  So I feel greatswords would need to be in much greater numbers to do what medium sized units of flagelants can do.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 21, 2012, 12:27:17 PM
Dictating movement.
I would normally use harpies, or wolfriders to carrie most of the workload here.
With the empire breed though, this is something they lack. There is just no good unit with fast movement speed to fill this role.
But the reiksguard knights is a partial solution to the same problem. Its a different approach to dictating the movement flow of the game than I am used to, but its non the less a viable option. - 1-2 units of 5 will be more or less mandatory in my list, and they can performe well in different roles.

They can march up and pin down units with the help of the stubborn. The flying bsb will be a great safty net when using them in this role.
Having str 6 and +1 save means they are among the better hard hitters in the list, and can team up with other unit on combo charges, charge monsters, or team up with heroes to make a hammer unit.

I was planning on using normal heroes mounted on steeds costing 60 pts as my own support "units".- this is no longer as viable an option. But I will bring a 88 pts warrior priest to partially work in this role non the less. And when hes not performing in those task he will act as a force multiplier with his hatred.

More or less dedicated to killing chaff will then be. the hellblaster, with a unit of 5 gw knights as a babysitter in case 2 incoming units against the helblaster. The warrrior priest. The pegasuss lord.( he can do it, but often not the bsb. to risky for him.)
the reiksguard knights, and a unit of 10 archers.) Im pumping the archer detachment up to 10 because of the ability to make them stubborn. And its now actually a reason to have a second rank due to support attacks even on archers.

Enough for now.. more like a fence than a wall =)
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: MarkoV on April 21, 2012, 07:56:24 PM
tl;dr
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Padre on April 21, 2012, 08:00:42 PM
tl;dr

Urban Dictionary: tl;dr
www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tl%3Bdr
Literally, "Too long; didn't read" Said whenever a nerd makes a post that is too long to bother reading.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Quickbeam on April 21, 2012, 08:06:40 PM
I read all of that. My brain now hurts. It's a Saturday I shouldn't have to read.
Thanks anyway though.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Fidelis von Sigmaringen on April 21, 2012, 08:11:41 PM
Some interesting thoughts. I do not think it is too long to read (most of my job and spare time consists of reading anyway), but perhaps a somewhat clearer division with headlines might make it easier to read.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: CaptainChris on April 21, 2012, 08:37:58 PM
Not only wasn't it too long to read, it's well formatted and thought out.  This is the type of discussion I like to read.  I'm soaking it all in still, but initially I have to say I like your approach to the army.  As a follower of Cesar's Way I'm impressed by how often the simple tenants apply to my everyday life. I hadn't considered it in warhammer, but it has a ring of truth. 

Some of the finer points I think I disagree with you on, or rather I see less of a need for and would like to move points around.  For example I think a General on griffon makes a better stubborn hat wearer, and monster hunter than a captasus and stank, and saves points that I can invest into the other roles like stubborn blocks and anti infantry warmachines.

But I'll put some more thoughts together here soon.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Freman Bloodglaive on April 21, 2012, 08:51:27 PM
I think the strength of the Pegasus is that it cannot be shot out from under the General. It's basically a magic carpet that doesn't cut into the magic allowance (and can fight in combat). It's protected by all the equipment that you use to protect the General, and the role that he's being used for in this scenario is one of a mobile unit support, rather than a single monstrous fighting machine.

This made interesting reading, thank you.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Padre on April 21, 2012, 10:16:48 PM
btw, I wasn't saying tl;dr, I was merely trying to be informative and pass on what my very quick google search had come up with for said bunch of letters.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Ratarsed on April 21, 2012, 10:21:09 PM
btw, I wasn't saying tl;dr, I was merely trying to be informative and pass on what my very quick google search had come up with for said bunch of letters.

Thank you. I was baffled at the response. Now I know. Seems a bit rude but hey-ho you can't please everyone.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 21, 2012, 10:48:50 PM
tl;dr
The ability to arbitrarily read 400 small posts but not a long one.


The good thing about the pegasuss as a mount is that its impossible to kill.-its just like a normal steed in that regard. Its a great mount for your bsb captain to,  he gets a free wound because of it.

Next you need to protect him against cannons. So the charmed shield is golden. Always put him inside some of your infantry or knight units to begin with, and you can allocate more or less infinite shots towards the unit before you need to allocate one towards him. For that reason I would put him in a unit of infantry, and not say 5 knights to begin with.

2ndly the charmed shield only works against the first shot from a cannon ball, so you just cant skip the wardsave, you need the ward, and you need to be shooting his canons if he is trying to snipe your general. 

Pegasus mounted Lords are pretty darn hard to kill from afar, and they are soon enough in combat somewhere where they cant be cannon sniped anymore.  Trying to mount anything on a griffon I give credit for having balls of steel, but darn its hard to play with vs canons that auto hit both rider an mount.(and rock lobbers, and all other such weapons.)

Same reason I guess you will only see insane people riding on the wagons with their mage..   Trust me I once tried to squeeze some ounces out of my orcs and goblins rare category, and put a shaman on my araknarock and tried to make it work..  It does not, end of story.  Trying to play against things like ogre kingdoms with 2 ironblasters with such a mage feels like... - insert morbid imagination here -  :ph34r:
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Quickbeam on April 21, 2012, 10:55:53 PM
Same reason I guess you will only see insane people riding on the wagons with their mage..   Trust me I once tried to squeeze some ounces out of my orcs and goblins rare category, and put a shaman on my araknarock and tried to make it work..  It does not, end of story.  Trying to play against things like ogre kingdoms with 2 ironblasters with such a mage feels like... - insert morbid imagination here -  :ph34r:
You're giving me nightmares  :ph34r:
The only time I could see anyone putting a wizard on one of those is if they know they won't be facing something like that.
Otherwise you are right! Insane  ::heretic::
Good call on the bsb capitain on a pegusus though.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Severus on April 22, 2012, 07:12:57 AM
Thanks for a very long and interesting read Stroll.

Even though I am not one of the most conservative of empire-players myself, I'm am booth shocked, provoked, and thrilled about how you plan to use the new book.

First I must say I agree with you on the flagellants, I find them much more useful than the greatswords. Their increase in WS really is useful, especially combined with  boosts from the Hurricanum and the War altar. Personally I will continue to use two units of 18, but it might be a bit slow...

Second I'm not a fan of the pegasi-bus with state troops, but I agree that it can be very effective in-game.

I also have a few questions:

How many points are you playing at the moment? It looks like around 2400 points, so what would you have to drop if you where to change it to 2000 points?

How is your BSB protected from canons? He seems to be very important to your strategy...

How are you planning to deal with the really big monsters with only one cannon, which often will be in combat?

I've read your infamous wall of text form your other thread, and while I understand how your Dark elves are able to delay, and eventually kill horde-units, I'm unsure about Empire having the killing power to soften them up and eventually kill them. Hordes with initiative of 4+ will kill allot before the rest of your troops get to strike.


Again, I’m really happy you are taking the time to write this.  :happy:
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Calisson on April 22, 2012, 10:17:48 AM
Thanks for your thoughts.

"cross reference that with Calisson's exellent playstyle chart"
I'd expect most W-E readers not to know what you're talking about.
I imagine you're referring at: D.R.A.I.C.H. – The style of a druchii army (http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?p=777803#top)
I'd love to see your version adapted for W-E.


About your general & BSB, there are important alternatives:
1- are they to be in the front rank of the main unit? In that case they need the best defense you can buy. WP also have this role.
2- are they to avoid the hottest part of the melee? In that case they need the fastest mount you can breed. You can provide them with fancy jewels such as MR or magic banners. Sorcerers have a similar problem, with similar solutions.
3- are they a mobile tool to put additional pressure where it is needed? In that case they need the best weapons (TGM with runefang competes hardly for that role).
I understand that you take a mix of roles 1 and 3.
However, nothing prevents you to fly away before being charged, if the fight does not suit you.


"The chocobos looks like exellent carrier units."
Not that much. Too vulnerable to whatever ignores armor saves, magic, some warmachines, even snotling chariots.
Also, 3 or 4 DG plus 1 or 2 peggies = very cumbersome.
I understand much better the idea of going along with infantry, despite lacking "look out, Sir".


The Steam Tank has what it needs to perform in most of the areas i need a monster to perform
Except that in melee, the Stank is more a tar pit than a grinder, contrary to most monsters.
The STank cannon has a problem: instead of blowing off a 120pts warmachine, you risk to hinder a precious "monster" with double value. Still, it is much more usable than in previous army book.


the only warmachine I will field is 1 hellblaster with an engineer
If the hellblaster creates a 24" no man's land, that's a lot of pts not doing anything else than controlling that area (that's good already, I admit).
That's why I'm considering rather a group of hellblaster + engineer + cannon.
When no target at 24", the engie helps the cannon.
When anything comes close, the engie helps the hellblaster, the canon shoots by itself.
When the hellblaster is eventually charged, the engie positions himself in the middle, at angle, so that the pursuing enemy bumps on the engie and is directed away from the canon, thus buying more time for canonballs.


Normally I would bring 2 lvl 1 mages
Your approach was inspiring. Now I consider a mere beast, heavens or shadow lvl1 to complement the WP, just taking the default spell for buff/curse. All other PD will be used by WP.

I WILL bring flagelants in a unit of 18.
I'd love to hear you about the pros & cons compared to 3 units of 6.
Like druchii's WE MSU spam sometimes considered.




Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: MarkoV on April 22, 2012, 02:57:51 PM
To much horror of many readers, i did read what our author wrote, and i wasn't "excited". We have saying in Serbia, when someone says something so obvious, we say that he "Invented hot water". Reading that wallz of text i didn't see anything that players around me didn't tried, tested and failed/won.

That is why i tl;dr.

But, i hope that someone else will try out "inventing hot water". Like putting BSB on Pegasus wasn't best possible thing to do, even against ranged armies.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 22, 2012, 04:23:17 PM
Marko, this thread is about my thoughts about what I am putting in my list, and some short description of why, and for what purpose. Im not saying I am inventing anything. 
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Bildskoene Bengtsson on April 22, 2012, 05:03:33 PM
To much horror of many readers, i did read what our author wrote, and i wasn't "excited". We have saying in Serbia, when someone says something so obvious, we say that he "Invented hot water". Reading that wallz of text i didn't see anything that players around me didn't tried, tested and failed/won.

That is why i tl;dr.

But, i hope that someone else will try out "inventing hot water". Like putting BSB on Pegasus wasn't best possible thing to do, even against ranged armies.

tr;dl - too rude, didn't like.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 22, 2012, 05:44:58 PM
A random thought that popped up today. I am was thinking quite a bit about witch hunters earlier today.

And there is no denying that they can be pretty darn good. I am first and foremost thinking about adding one to my army, but the more I think about the guys, the more I would like to make the most out of them. Mayby I will try at a later stage, but enough rambling- to the point!

Shadowmagic.- I think this might be the perfect lore to go with to supplement your Wichhunters. I would bring at least 2(or 3) hunters and a lvl 4 mage and most likely a lvl 1 death mage.

Ive heard losts of talk about how cool it would be to zip around on a flying carpet.- I dont like the carpet idea, but-
 The steed of shadows comes for free, as soon as you have access to it.

You lvl 4 mage can start sending out the witch hunters , and you can cast withering on the units containing the mages and heros you want to assassinate, to bring down their toughness, making your sniping all that more effective.

Putting witch hunters in right in front of units with mages is not a bad idea at all.  Use steed of shadows to get them into position and see how the enemy struggles to solve the problem. Charge and he will stand and shoot at your mage.

The gw models are darn cool, but my first witch hunter will be this gal here:
http://gutwrenchingrpg.org/jr/files/2012/03/Ameko.jpg
http://www.reapermini.com/graphics/gallery/4/IG_1542_1.jpg
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Nexus on April 22, 2012, 07:14:09 PM
To much horror of many readers, i did read what our author wrote, and i wasn't "excited". We have saying in Serbia, when someone says something so obvious, we say that he "Invented hot water". Reading that wallz of text i didn't see anything that players around me didn't tried, tested and failed/won.

That is why i tl;dr.

But, i hope that someone else will try out "inventing hot water". Like putting BSB on Pegasus wasn't best possible thing to do, even against ranged armies.

tr;dl - too rude, didn't like.

Best username in a good while! Welcome!  :-D
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: MarkoV on April 22, 2012, 07:16:53 PM
To much horror of many readers, i did read what our author wrote, and i wasn't "excited". We have saying in Serbia, when someone says something so obvious, we say that he "Invented hot water". Reading that wallz of text i didn't see anything that players around me didn't tried, tested and failed/won.

That is why i tl;dr.

But, i hope that someone else will try out "inventing hot water". Like putting BSB on Pegasus wasn't best possible thing to do, even against ranged armies.

tr;dl - too rude, didn't like.

You confused me for someone who cares what you think ;)
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: MarkoV on April 22, 2012, 07:21:20 PM
A random thought that popped up today. I am was thinking quite a bit about witch hunters earlier today.

And there is no denying that they can be pretty darn good. I am first and foremost thinking about adding one to my army, but the more I think about the guys, the more I would like to make the most out of them. Mayby I will try at a later stage, but enough rambling- to the point!

Shadowmagic.- I think this might be the perfect lore to go with to supplement your Wichhunters. I would bring at least 2(or 3) hunters and a lvl 4 mage and most likely a lvl 1 death mage.

Ive heard losts of talk about how cool it would be to zip around on a flying carpet.- I dont like the carpet idea, but-
 The steed of shadows comes for free, as soon as you have access to it.

You lvl 4 mage can start sending out the witch hunters , and you can cast withering on the units containing the mages and heros you want to assassinate, to bring down their toughness, making your sniping all that more effective.

Putting witch hunters in right in front of units with mages is not a bad idea at all.  Use steed of shadows to get them into position and see how the enemy struggles to solve the problem. Charge and he will stand and shoot at your mage.

The gw models are darn cool, but my first witch hunter will be this gal here:
http://gutwrenchingrpg.org/jr/files/2012/03/Ameko.jpg
http://www.reapermini.com/graphics/gallery/4/IG_1542_1.jpg

If you want your WH to kick some ass, try something i did, lore of beasts. I managed to cast improved version of +3 str, toug and att to all my WH in 12 inch,(4 of them) and they kicked asses of their designated targets.

Best thing about them is their price, and fact that even if they are slow(if you leave em vanilla) they are going to do their dmg sometimes. And when they come...dang :D

P. S. strollinthewoods, soz for tl;dr ;)
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: commandant on April 22, 2012, 10:50:21 PM
tl;dr

Possibly the most useless post I have ever seen on this forum as I didn't understand it.   Then again I am not that pleased with people who write in letters because I can't be bothered learning what all the silly letters mean.   We have a perfectly developed system for informing people of your thoughts, it involves writing words and call me a Luddite but I prefer it.

On the subject matter itself there are some very interesting ideas in it.   I'm not sure if you remember the captain-cruise-missile but what you are purposing with the witch hunter seems similar :)
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: jaggedjimmyj on April 23, 2012, 07:23:49 AM
Then again I am not that pleased with people who write in letters because I can't be bothered learning what all the silly letters mean.
lol, what?
If not in letters, how do you want people to write?
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 23, 2012, 07:29:13 AM
(https://whyweprotest.net/asset-proxy/36ff83706c757fa51956339af4a3887546956c34/687474703a2f2f693238312e70686f746f6275636b65742e636f6d2f616c62756d732f6b6b3230342f6964616e6f772f736f6e2d692d616d2d6469736170706f696e742e6a7067/http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk204/idanow/son-i-am-disappoint.jpg)

Pictures!

On topic I will add more once I am through and sorted my mind but so far I think it is bloody brilliant.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Bildskoene Bengtsson on April 23, 2012, 07:56:18 AM

Best username in a good while! Welcome!  :-D

I suppose you're Swedish then?
Or is my username funny in every language?


You confused me for someone who cares what you think ;)

I really don't wanna start my days at W-E with a petty argument, so let's bury the hatchet. You used your cool internet lingo (win!) and I made a funny joke about it (win!). See... everybody is happy.

On the topic, I find the ideas interesting although I really don't care for that Milan dude.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 23, 2012, 08:05:40 AM
Done...and thanks for the great post.

Kudos for the Ceasar Millan reference....awesome sauce!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-ztHLsOkwo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-ztHLsOkwo)

On your points on the army I share lots of your insights and gained a lot of thought food.

I like to skip the pegasus for the general as I feel tricked out of the additional wound a captain gets out of the deal, but using the general in combo with a bsb sounds...well perfect. Event he magical kit is what I would suggest but I am Swabian (they are the German Scots) so I like stuff cheap so the BsB with armour kit and the charmed shield no ward save...I never make my ward saves anyway. General with crown of command and 4+ save sounds nice though.

I suggest to use more cannons (make that two at everything up to 2999 points) for your build, they are great to kill off chaff, characters, other artillery, monsters and are pretty reliable on it (statistically if you keep rolling the 1 for wounding or on the number of wounds you do you just have to stick to it they pay off almost every game).

If you spread them out on each flank you get enfilading shots, on units. One full hit on a unit of knights or even a horde of infantry usually pays their price.

Your ideas on the steam tank are also spot on, in last edition it was a very big hit or miss thing. Either the enemy army had tools to deal with it and it was done at turn 2 (either destroyed or just sitting around) or with no tools you could pick the enemies army and battle plan apart with the stank dominating the centre of the battlefield. I didnīt like to use it as it was a huge liability for my own plans. Now it is awesome and has incredible damage potential. I am not sure yet if I even want to try to mount the hochland on it. moving around and sniping wizards on 5+ (short range of 18 inches) is not too bad.

Your greatsword analysis is also spot on. I really like the models but I feel physical pain when I make lists including them in my army. Especially competive lists. Always striking last no matter the circumstances mean no matter what i fight I get wounds in. This really starts to hurt if I match them up against stuff striking before them and not also striking last, savage big unz killing of 10 greatswords before I get to strike is just something I am not in to . I never understand Warriors of Chaos players who go for greatswords on their marauders and donīt use flails They are perfect. Striking at I4 with S5 at Ws4 for 5 points? I never get why anyone uses Chaos warriors. Well anyhow I try to mitigate this in my list with the lore of life. Increasing their toughness by +2 is enough to keep them alive against everything but the hardest of all hitters (bloodknights and similar) and reviving them with the regrowth spell. But they are a suboptimal choice.

Note on the witch hunters you canīt snipe when you make a stand and shoot reaction. Still I think a cheap witch hunter is a solid choice.


Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Dosiere on April 23, 2012, 08:21:10 AM
The idea of mounting my general and/or BsB on a Pegasus sounds strange, but I might just try it out.  I will have to get over the idea of my characters not having "look out , sir!" rolls;  this has been beaten into my head for the last 10 years of playing. 

I'm not so sure about the Steam Tank, only because of the random movement.  It can very easily rocket away from your lines to a place you don't want it, or creep forward and leave a flank open.  Even though I like the way it works better than last edition, that random movement will mean you just can't count on it.

I would seriously consider taking a cannon in your list.  Calisson made a good point about keeping it with an engineer and your helblaster.  It maximizes the utility of the engineer and benefits both war machines. 
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: commandant on April 23, 2012, 08:23:07 AM
Then again I am not that pleased with people who write in letters because I can't be bothered learning what all the silly letters mean.
lol, what?
If not in letters, how do you want people to write?

In words, people write in words.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: jaggedjimmyj on April 23, 2012, 09:37:14 AM
(http://www.facepalm.org/images/24.jpg)
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Finlay on April 23, 2012, 10:47:38 AM
(http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/tl_f9a86b_2854617.gif)
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Derek Contyre on April 23, 2012, 11:34:18 AM
Then again I am not that pleased with people who write in letters because I can't be bothered learning what all the silly letters mean.
lol, what?
If not in letters, how do you want people to write?

In words, people write in words.



(http://www.facepalm.org/images/24.jpg)



Bahahahahahaha If I could sig that it would be the second best day of my life...(the first being actually able to win a fantasy game  :dry: )

But back on topic, some excellent theoryhammer you put out Strollinthewoods, I like the idea of multiple small units just zipping around the battlefield, almost like Skyros and his 7th ed armies on this site.(at least I think it was him  :unsure: )

But the thought of multiple small units will take some time for my brain to get around to....

Damn 8th ed and their horde units.
Though I am an advocate of small unit frontages with ranks, I find that with the state troops, in larger games, 40 is an ideal number, I deploy them 10x4 formation, but after initial combat I redeploy into 6x8 to enable other hittier troops to move in and carry the battle off the infantry.

Honestly your posts weren't that long at all, and I started reading them this afternoon and i got to Markov's post and though "that was too long? hang on a sec... Oh wow was I lost in the words just then" so if you keep writing tactical analysis like that you are doing pretty well.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: rothgar13 on April 23, 2012, 05:14:19 PM
<stuff>

Your greatsword analysis is also spot on. I really like the models but I feel physical pain when I make lists including them in my army. Especially competive lists. Always striking last no matter the circumstances mean no matter what i fight I get wounds in. This really starts to hurt if I match them up against stuff striking before them and not also striking last, savage big unz killing of 10 greatswords before I get to strike is just something I am not in to . I never understand Warriors of Chaos players who go for greatswords on their marauders and donīt use flails They are perfect. Striking at I4 with S5 at Ws4 for 5 points? I never get why anyone uses Chaos warriors. Well anyhow I try to mitigate this in my list with the lore of life. Increasing their toughness by +2 is enough to keep them alive against everything but the hardest of all hitters (bloodknights and similar) and reviving them with the regrowth spell. But they are a suboptimal choice.

<more stuff>

As a WoC player, I can answer this one pretty easily. Marauders take Great Weapons because their lot in life is to grind - they'll rarely break a unit on the first charge (though they usually win), and after that the Flails are useless. Great Weapons deliver consistent offense, and the Marauders have the numbers to absorb the inevitable casualties. Flails match up a little better against certain opponents (like Savage Big 'Uns), but Marauders lose those fights anyway.

As for why people bring Chaos Warriors, I hinted at it above, but the fact of the matter is that there are fights where your Marauders will get their arses kicked, no matter how many you bring. Examples include the aforementioned Savage Big 'Uns, Gors (with or without the Beast Banner), and Frenzied Corsairs. Chaos Warriors with Halberds match up A LOT better against those units. It's all about the tools in the toolbox.

As for Greatswords... personally, I think they're fantastic. You don't get a lot of their benefits if you pit them against heavy infantry, though - their goal is to run into something that can't do much about that awesome 4+ armor save or those WS4 S5 swings, and chop it up. They can also hunt monsters reasonably well thanks to their ability to take magic banners, though IC Knights arguably do that a bit better.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 23, 2012, 07:08:37 PM
Marauders with flails wonīt win against Savage orcs? Why?

they have the same damage output only that marauders are half the points.

also imagine 3 blocks of 40 marauders with flails the rest filled with tasty support (marauder horse...you guessed with flails) and two hellcannons. WOC can be tough but most armies I see I am very happy to face...big chosen star 2-3 tough blocks little support and on a bad day a hellcannon.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: rothgar13 on April 23, 2012, 07:17:50 PM
You have less attacks (50 v. 40), you wound on a lower value (3+ for you, 2+ for him), and he has a 5+ Ward save on all of his guys. In math-hammer terms...

50 Khorne Marauders, Flails, Musician, Standard-Bearer v. 39 Savage Orc Big 'Uns, Full Command, AHWs + Savage Orc Great Shaman, Fencer's Blades, Lucky Shrunken Head

Marauders go first. 40 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s, allowing a 5+ Ward save.

Marauders: (40)*(1/2)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 8.89 Wounds

Not even enough to trim the fat off the back rank. Now, the Savage Orcs go. 51 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 2s, allowing no save.

Savage Orcs: (51)*(1/2)*(5/6) = 21.25 Wounds

As you can see, that was an arse-kicking (albeit against a much more expensive unit). Run them into Gors or Corsairs, and you'll see similar results, though Flails will fare slightly better in the first round against Gors. They'll get demolished in the first round - you're going to get into a grind assuming you stick around to begin with, and that means the Great Weapon is superior.

The two lists of WoC that I favor are the MMU hard-punching type where most units are dangerous on their own and lethal in concert, or the extreme-points-denial one that will simply advance and give you no soft target to hit - the easiest thing to get points out of in that army is a Warshrine with a 3+ Ward save.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 23, 2012, 07:31:05 PM
And loosing 20 of those guys before they get to strike and the same thing next combat phase helps?

 :unsure:

sorry not convinced...why would you field 50 Khorne marauders? 40 is perfect 10 wide ....I even would think about fielding them only 30 strong.

If the Big uns attack in the front you made a mistake...bait them away with marauder horse due to frenzy they HAVE to overrun.

Same with Khorne marauders though so better be careful.

 :happy:

In two rounds of combat those great sword marauders are down 30-40 men before they get to strike a second time. No thank you rather have them strike at the splendid I4.

Donīt use chaos warriors as they wonīt fare much better against those Big unz.

They are overly expensive especially the chosen deathstar they seldon make their points back even though it is a good feeling to have an invincible unit on the table.


Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: rothgar13 on April 23, 2012, 07:56:10 PM
The Chosen might not make their points back, but they almost never give them up, which in a properly built list is just as good, because other units will do the killing.

Going back to our example - yes, you want the ability to put a couple of extra cheap casualties on the Savage Orcs before you get smashed off the board - the extra guys you'll have to swing with in the second round (less than in the first round, because Choppas will have worn off) for taking Flails will still do less damage than the ones with Great Weapons. You basically take the entire "fat" rank off, then you can crash another unit in there to mop those Orcs up. The reason you bring 50 (sometimes even 60) guys in a block is because Marauders usually take heavy casualties no matter what they're fighting, and you want them to be combat-worthy after they mop up their first block, provided that they win.

Warriors you can send against Big 'Uns because they strike first. 2 squads of 18 Khorne Halberd Warriors fielded 6-wide clock in at approximately the same price as those Savages, put out almost the same amount of attacks as they do if you combo-charge them in there (51 for the Orcs with 3 ranks v. 48 for the Warriors), and (importantly) strike before them and hit on a better value. Those 2 squads actually beat those Savage Orcs, as demonstrated below:

2 x 18 Chaos Warriors, Halberds, Mark of Khorne, Musician, Standard-Bearer v. 39 Savage Orc Big 'Uns, Full Command, AHWs + Savage Orc Great Shaman, Fencer's Blades, Lucky Shrunken Head

Chaos Warriors go first. 48 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, allowing a 5+ Ward save.

Math: (48)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 14.22 Wounds

The Orcs lost the whole 4th rank and a bit of the third, so their output is a bit diminished. 47 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s, allowing a 6+ save.

Math: (47)*(1/2)*(2/3)*(5/6) = 13.05 Wounds

Bear in mind that these Wounds are split between the two units, so it'll be 6.525 Wounds apiece, which is enough to take out their "fat" rank, but not deny the rank bonus for the second rank on either unit. The Savage Orcs have 1 more rank, but that cancels out with the Chaos Warriors' charge bonus. They win that round, strip the Frenzy from the Savages, and they also lose the Choppas bonus. Next round, the Chaos Warriors win handily, because they'll damage the unit badly enough to not care overly much about the return attacks, as demonstrated below:

11 + 12 Chaos Warriors, Halberds, Mark of Khorne, Musician, Standard-Bearer v. 25 Savage Orc Big 'Uns, Full Command, AHWs + Savage Orc Great Shaman, Fencer's Blades, Lucky Shrunken Head (no Frenzy, no Choppas)

Chaos Warriors go first. 47 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 3s, allowing a 5+ Ward save.

Math: (47)*(2/3)*(2/3)*(2/3) = 13.92 Wounds

The Orcs have lost most of the guys not in the front rank, so their attack output is reduced to 34 attacks, hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s, allowing a 5+ armor save.

Math: (34)*(1/2)*(1/2)*(2/3) = 5.67 Wounds

The Orcs have trimmed the rank bonuses from the Warriors, but they've lost them as well. They're going to be running, and the fight is over.

And while Savage Big 'Uns can be baited, that doesn't mean it's easy. You can build an O&G army around the Savages, and a host of units to clear any chaff that could be used for baiting them. Fanatics, Mangler Squigs, Trolls, Wolf Riders, Wolf Chariots, and Doom Diver Catapults are all useful for this purpose. I play both of these armies, and believe me when I say it's not much of an issue.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 23, 2012, 09:15:16 PM
You need a plan, when it comes to deployment of your army.
Well to be honest you might not need one, but I do. If I dont, there is no structure at all
to the way im playing. So for me the juourney starts on a sheet of paper, first I put down what I would like in my list- then I start to envision what I have put into the current list.
This I do on paper, and I roughly jot down the units and start to shuffle them around.

There is always things to consider, when determening how you can deoploy.
Like for instance where is your general, and your bsb?
What units can safly be put outside the leadership bubble?
What units need to support one anohter?

This is pretty obvious stuff.- but for me its very important stuff also.  Let me just take a couple of minutes and look at why and how this is helpfull to me.
I try and force myself to alternate between my dark elfs and orcs and goblins on turnaments. And last, it was Orcs and goblins that I brought.  This is a good example, because there is so many things you need to take seriously in the deoployment of your list.. its very unforgiving if you screw up.

I went with a 2 wave style with a mounted black orc with crown of command leading my armie. I call it a carrier unit when all the unit really does is bring the crown bearer safly forward, and he had such a unit of 5 savage orc big uns boar boys.

I went refused flank each and every game on the tournament, - its a chicken and egg dilemma. Because you have limited ld bubble with your general, and if you put him in the senter of the board, you create problems for yourself with regards to your flanks, beeing with very poor ld indeed. And with a strong center, you need to have good flanks also, to avoid beein pincered from both sides from your opponent.
- So to solve this issue, I went with refused flank, and anchored the center of my lines with the aracknarock.- This model needs to be within 12 of the general to be a reliable
roadblock on the all so important flank its protecting. So it dictates were my general can go. I had a unit of 8 trolls. They need to follow the gerneral at all times etc. When you have lots of overlapping requirements like this, I find its a good exersice to scribble down some suggestions to myself. Make a few different alternatives, and look at them.
And consider how the flow of the game will unfold itself with each alternative.
- Going for a refused flank, you need to pay heed to the different movement charactereistics of you units. Faster the longer out to your flank you get, if you
want a fast sweeping motion were all your units support one another upwards. What I mean is that slower units support the faster ones, in a way that makes sence.
   This is a good opurunity to talk about some of the benefits of small frontages.
When you go with small unit frontage, you more often than not get the opurtunity to support charge from behind. This is a great benefit in that you can stack some of your
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 23, 2012, 09:16:00 PM
units in space backwards towards your table edge, and not only utilizing your horizontal space. Its also a bit more difficult for your opponent to try and block compared to supporting flank charges.

Going back to my ors and goblins example, and the point about thinking on paper prior to actuall combat. With that list I did 2 things, refused flank, and a 2 wave setup with an aggressive - counter charge minded setup, with fast wolf riders to act as speedbumps to align the fights for the 2 waves.- Meaning that if the first wave is hit, the fight will not take place before the 2nd wave supports. But not only that- I made it one of my primary goals to release fanatics as a charge repsonse when the first wave was hit. so my 2nd wave was 2 units of night goblins with short bows, and 3 fanatics each. Releasing fanatics as a charge respons is more likely to inflict 2d6 than it is to inflict d6, and is truly awsome in raw damage output in 8ed. But were am I going with all this? You cant release fanatics as a charge response if your fanatics already is released, and to prevent them from beeing released prematurly I needed to make sure it was very very hard to get them out with chaff units. The way thinking on paper helped me, was in figuring out prior to combat at what distance from the enemy I can deploy against different movement units.- Lets say flyers, they go 20+ the 8, meaning I always had to put my night goblin units at least 5" from the 12"(29 from flyers) mark in my deployment zone. Then I put wolf rider units, and wolf chariots in front , making it very hard to leap frog to get to the night goblins.
   This is the stuff I like to know, beforehand, and its not the kind of thing I am suited to start thinking to much about in a game. I also pretty much know what units are supporting one another, in a general sence.
The orc list was not suited to do anything else than a refused flank, but it was very very good at just that . And the 2 wave approach on a limited space, with fanatic and mangler support worked great, and did just some insane ammounts of damage over the course of the tournament. I could keep my opponent in the dark as to what side I would commit to, but I could not very well adapt to my opponent and go for say 2 strong flanks with a weak center type of play.- knowing this beforehand makes you less likely to be tempted by a "brilliant" idea during the stressful hours of a tournament where your bloodsugar might start declining and the brain overheating.
   The dark elf list is much much more adaptable, with generally higher ld all around I am less restricted, but there are things to watch up for. Like all the cold one pieces need to be inside the re-roll or the general, and preferably both. Harpies should always stay near the general, and for that reason alone, I am weary when deoploying them. As I have said before, I can make last moment decisions with my heroes in deployment to put lots of force on one flank or a weakspot I notcie in the enemy deployment, and I try to be conservative, and deploy my harpies when I know for sertian were my general is going.  Harpies with ld 10 is not at all comparable to harpies with ld 6, not even remotely.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 23, 2012, 09:16:57 PM
I have just begun the work with thinking through what type of deployments can be suited with the empire.  Will come back to in when I have more concrete thoughts about it. Before I log off for today, there is a minor thing conserning (hobbits) the empire I`d like to share.  Steadfast gets transfered over to the detachments.- this is just insanly good to be able to do. But as Fandir mentioned in an earlier post, when he was talking about that he felt tricked into thinking that you get more bang for your bucks with a hero lvl character on a pegasuss, becaue you gain that last wound for free- I know exactly what he is talking about,  and Ive been there, felt that myself with my dark elfs.
But the thing is you sometimes need to use your hydra breath on skaven slaves, and you need those extra 50 pts of magic equipment a lord gives you- and here is the point-
You dont always benefit from being steadfast with your detachments! So dont let yourself be fooled into thinking its all good, when in fact its not always the case, you need to be the judge from case to case.- Let me explain what Im refering to.
   Lets say your detachment is a pretty standard 5 archer type detach, you intend to use it as a diverter.- As a diverter its almost always going to be bad with steadfast.
As a speedbump, it will often be bad. Lets take diverter first. 

Incoming enemy unit, you go forward to meet it with your archer diverter.- Put them in a conga line, and align them so the enemy unit will have to charge them, align, and if he pursues, he will be vaulnerable to flank charge from your parent unit.
The purpose here is to get your parent unit into combat without it beeing charged in the prosess. If the archers are steadfast they probably will not break, and that means they will most likely be choped down in the next combat phase(afterr your parent have countercharged) and give up all their points, and easy almost free combat resolution points for the opponent- your parent is probably in the flank, and the ones hitting the archers would not have been hitting anything had they not been there.
The main thing here, is the fact that you loose your archers, without actually gaining anything- had they broken from combat, you have always a good chance of escaping, and thus not giving away any points at all. In a redirector setting, your opponent is not even likely to pursue, but to make a restrain, and combat reform, to meet your parent head on instead of in the flank. (with msu, he probably will get one in the flank no matter what though)
Even when they act as a speedbump, and the opponent will almost always pursue to get into the parent unit, you get that 50% of getting out of harms way. Only have 1 archer left and not likely to rally?  Not to worry, a benefit of beeing agressie and going forward, before switching over to a defansive posture in the middle of the map, is that you can probably run for 2-3 turns before you go off the edge, chances are good you dont loose any points.- I often dont, and my harpies run with swift stride =)  Do think about little things like this when setting up your speedbump, often you can align it just a little, and make the distance to the table edge 3 turns later 4 turns away instead.

You cant choose not to be steadfast.- so my point here is, make sure they are outside 3" when you dont want them to.- and since they cause panic, better make that 6,2 "

Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: rothgar13 on April 23, 2012, 09:23:31 PM
At the risk of sounding like a jerk, punctuation and grammar, please. Those posts of yours are bloody hard to read, and it's not because they're long. :eusa_wall:

Also, got any batreps for us to examine yet? :engel:
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 24, 2012, 08:21:49 AM
Strollin we pretty much think alike. If I know what I am facing I already plan the battle in my mind.

What will he bring? As I donīt like tailored lists I always want to go for a tournament army, something I would field at an all comers event even when I know it will only be one game against Orcs and Goblins (to mend the pain of not going to the Eurobash I will fight a game 2500 points against O&G this Thursday).

Do I have the tools to destroy what would be the worst possible threat against me. O&G I fear most, rock lobbers, Arachnarork spider, doom diver and wolf chariots and Savage Orc Big Unz. Most of the stuff needs artillery to deal with so I go through the target priority for my 2 cannons (3 with the steam tank...I am already looking forward using that gun as I almost never fired it the last editions). So first I want to get rid of the ARachnarork as most likely his lobbers will fire at my stank (hurrah he has 10 wounds and should be able to take the punishment), after the spider is down (and I will try to align shots to get more than one target under the cannon template) the rock lobbers, the chariots are bad if they hit home but I have to try to get them charged by my stuff or try to destroy them with the helblaster (he is much less efficient in killing the spider and most of the times wonīt be in range for the rock lobbers). The rest of the orc army I have other tools to deal with savage big unz get to eat archer screens and I will try to get off a flank charge on them with a regiment or the stank (most likely destroying them or crippling them enough).

So the battle already unfolds in my mind even though I will play him on thursday. If he brings other stuff than the savage big unz, the spider and the rock lobbers....fantastic as he uses less efficient tools and my cannons will have other juicy targets like characters. More infantry means less space for him and his maneuvering will be harder for him.

Strollin at your Pegasus General...I thought about it and I canīt see it, I think I rather put an Arch Lector of Sigmar on a Horse slap some more armour on him and hand him the Crown of Command and the white Cloak (possible build mount+barding, heavy armour, shield, helm of the rat slayer, crown of command, white cloak). This way he can hide in the Knight unit I plan to field and is still pretty flexible, his force multiplier is bigger as the hatred on the knights is a huge boost, the minus 1 to hit usually effects 3 models fighting the knights, fear makes them immune to fear and once in a while if I donīt forget it fighting enemy ws1 foes is nice. The Hold the Line of the General most likely wonīt work if he is on his own. I will try the BsBgasus though charmed shield, pistol, sword of might, and dawnstone!


Also important for the rules, there is still a discussion going on about the steadfast, you most likely only get it if the Parent AND the detachment are in combat as long as the main regiment isnīt in combat the detachments are not steadfast.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: noibn on April 24, 2012, 09:38:41 AM
I'm intrigued by some of the posts here regarding Greatswords and Flagellants. I'm not the most experienced general so maybe someone here could break this down for me. In what way exactly is Flagellants better than Greatswords in the new book?

Flagellants have no armor, cost 1 point more, has 1 WS less and are only S5 in the first round of combat. Also, the changes to the martyr rules make them more random now, no? They do have hatred thou.

Greatswords are ASL, but other than that I can't see any cons to them compared to Flaggies. So, Greatswords have armor, better WS, are S5 every round of combat, are 1 point cheaper and can take a magic banner now. Does ASL really make that big of a diffrence?

I'm just not seeing it, but like I said, I'm not that experienced.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 24, 2012, 09:42:28 AM
Greatswords aver very reliable regarding leadership

Flagellants are 100 % reliable.

They never panic, they never run, they always die to the last man. You can operate with them on the other side of the battlefield without worrying that a terror check sends them off fleeing.

Also ASL is in my opinion huge. You canīt under no circumstances and no matter the choice where you fight with them fight without getting hits in first.

I still will go with greatswords as I like the models a lot and also the background of state troopers over flagellants. The boost of stubborn to the detachments is what cuts it out for me. but for a msu approach with units running around everywhere on the table and not advancing as one big blob, flagellants are better (as they never run).
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 24, 2012, 11:26:05 AM
I am very sorry rothgar 13,- there seem to be something terribly wrong with the start of the last post. I sat down and started it when I came home from work, and finished it later in the evening. When I saw how horribly bad the first part of the post is, it was to late, as I had already posted it. But you are spot on in pointing out that its almost on the brink of being unreadable. I hope you also feel it gets somewhat better
further down in the post.

I will take more care to avoid post like that one in the future, Im far from proud of it :icon_redface: (think the problem is that I was so much interrupted and started and stopped sentences and trains of thoughts in my head each time it happened, and the train wreck of a post is the result)

Im hoping to get some gaming done this weekend, will come back to it.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: noibn on April 24, 2012, 11:33:01 AM
Greatswords aver very reliable regarding leadership

Flagellants are 100 % reliable.

They never panic, they never run, they always die to the last man. You can operate with them on the other side of the battlefield without worrying that a terror check sends them off fleeing.

Also ASL is in my opinion huge. You canīt under no circumstances and no matter the choice where you fight with them fight without getting hits in first.

I still will go with greatswords as I like the models a lot and also the background of state troopers over flagellants. The boost of stubborn to the detachments is what cuts it out for me. but for a msu approach with units running around everywhere on the table and not advancing as one big blob, flagellants are better (as they never run).

True, Flaggies are unbreakable so they'll never run. But given stubborn, BSB reroll - and in case you run your BSB in with the Greatsword - HtL Greatswords are not very likely to run either. I can see a smal unit of Flaggies being a better tarpit than a smal unit of Greatswords, but when it comes to big blocks (which is what I assume most people will be running Greatswords as in a 2500-3000 point list) I don't see Flaggies having a huge advantage leadership wise.

I don't have the book with me but I believe that flaggies are still base initiative 3? So even thou they're not ASL there are plenty of nasties that will go before them in CC no?

Flaggies and Greatswords are suppose to be the "killy" empire infantry choices, ie you run either of them because you actually want to deal some wounds. It is in this regard that I'm comparing Flaggies and Greatswords. Flaggies are all about the charge, so first round of combat they have +2 S, after that they're just WS 3 dudes with no armor. Also, it's possible that they don't get their buffs from "the end is neigh" off if you're unlucky with the dice rolls.

I guess it all comes down to what you intend to use them for, and how you set up your army. Like you mentioned, in the case of multiple small units Flaggies would be a better pick. But other than that I don't see why one would go with Flaggies over Greatswords.

Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 24, 2012, 11:33:37 AM
Nahhh I rather have your thoughts pour out unorganized than not at all.

Out with it, do the proofreading once you have the time and muse.

@ Noib Flaggies go before

Ironguts
Bestigors
Dwarves
Savage Orcs
Marauders with Great Weapons
Everything non High Elf with Great weapons

oh and Greatswords

Enough choice of smashing in the face and even without those they go at the same time with most other armies except Elves and Skaven.

What I dislike on them are the 2 attacks (and their point cost for that) this means a horde is basically a bad idea I would suggest fielding them 14 strong 7*2 or if they face hordes go to 12 wide (perhaps a unit of 19 could be fun if you play a hoardy environment 12/5.

Greatswords are unlikely to run but they do run once in a while.

Lizardmen slann lead temple guard are very unlikely to run but even that happens once in a while.

Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 24, 2012, 11:35:53 AM
The pegasuss thing is about movement. And flying is just huge when it comes to that.

It also highly depends on your playstyle if you need him to be THAT maneuverable. But I want him to be where he needs to be exactly when he should be there,( and not come late as some wizards do)

See how it can quickly become a problem when your opponent starts taking pre-emptive meassures to keep your normal steed mounted hero away from where he needs to be? Lets say he just lands a unit of harpies in front of your crown unit? How is your general going to get in front of the horde he desperately needs to hold up in the next turn?

Its not a no-brainer choice to put him on a pegasuss. But with the charmed shield in a unit the first cannon ball will be deflected, and you need a good ward. 

Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 24, 2012, 11:39:17 AM
I will run the archers to intercept or sacrifice the witch hunter or some other speed bump the same way the harpies got in my way.

We try and see. I see your plan has merit but I will try my own path into the woods. Most likely both will lead somewhere. First test will be Thursday I try to make pics and will make a battle report.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 24, 2012, 01:21:26 PM
Wow, had not seen all the controversy concerning steadfast and detachments.

i want to go mage hunting with my stubborn regrowing +2 Toughness knights... 

Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Fandir Nightshade on April 24, 2012, 01:27:10 PM
Patience...patience you will.

 :happy:

Take pics and make battle reports...please!
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: rothgar13 on April 24, 2012, 03:31:35 PM
I am very sorry rothgar 13,- there seem to be something terribly wrong with the start of the last post. I sat down and started it when I came home from work, and finished it later in the evening. When I saw how horribly bad the first part of the post is, it was to late, as I had already posted it. But you are spot on in pointing out that its almost on the brink of being unreadable. I hope you also feel it gets somewhat better
further down in the post.

I will take more care to avoid post like that one in the future, Im far from proud of it :icon_redface: (think the problem is that I was so much interrupted and started and stopped sentences and trains of thoughts in my head each time it happened, and the train wreck of a post is the result)

Im hoping to get some gaming done this weekend, will come back to it.

No worries, mate. Just pointing out that you were getting a little stream-of-consciousness on us there. :)

Also looking forward to your reports. I'm intrigued by your approach to Empire, and I'm definitely going to see if you have any nice tricks that I can steal.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 26, 2012, 09:14:55 PM
Im preparing for the first game with the new book. And have been fiddeling with my old steam tank project for quite some time today. Not quite happy with it so far, but its far better than what it looked like. Its my first ever sculpt that I made, and there has been some issues that has bothered me with it, and I have filed and shaved of most of them.

Cant wait to get my styrene sheets in the mail so I can start making the gun! :smile2:

(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w45/strollinthewoods/Return%20of%20the%20Empire/IMG_0008.jpg)
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w45/strollinthewoods/Return%20of%20the%20Empire/IMG_0010.jpg)
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Darknight on April 27, 2012, 11:47:28 AM
Loving that "Steam Tank" - looks really good. I am planning something similar, although precisely how it will look is changing thanks to the Lumminark's army list entry option . . .
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 27, 2012, 10:00:59 PM
I had scheduled a game today vs an ogre kingdoms friend of mine, but he had to cancel in the last minute. Thankfully I managed to arrange another match on a Friday afternoon :smile2:

But I did not feel I had the time needed to take pictures and stuff like I had planned. None the less, I have the day tomorrow "free" and will make some diagrams of the flow of the game, and its highlights.

ETC comp, 2400 pts.

My opponent fielded deamons of chaos - End result- One herald left on the battlefield, wondering what the FUCK happened to all his comrades?

Can I dig the empire? Oh yes I can, I can even boogie with it, but I`ll keep my hat on.

Its way to early to say if I need to re-arrange stuff in my list. But this game has given me quite a lot to think about. Its goods stuff.

The winner of the day, the steam tank.  With life support its hard hard hard to get rid of.  I felt I had to let a flickering fire spell go through in the first round, and of course it ended up beeing 6 str 7 hits, and taking 3 wounds of the steam tank in the first round. Without the life lore the thing would have gone down this game. But with it, there was never really a danger.

Ill get back with some toughts about the actual game tommorrow.  Here is the list I played though.

    * Battle Wizard Lord (165pts)
        Lore of Life, Magic Items, Wizard Level 3


    * General of the Empire (246pts)
        (Hold the Line! (AB-32))
        Full Plate Armour (9pts), Imperial Pegasus (45pts) (Fly (BRB-70), Stomp (BRB-76), Swiftstride (BRB-76)), Lance (7pts)
        * Magic Items (90pts)
            AB - The White Cloak of Ulric (50pts), BRB - Charmed Shield (5pts), BRB - Crown of Command (35pts)
    * Captain of the Empire (163pts)
        (Hold the Line! (AB-32))
        Battle Standard Bearer (25pts), Full Plate Armour (6pts), Great Weapon (6pts)
        * Magic Items (50pts)
            BRB - Dawnstone (25pts), BRB - Dragonhelm (10pts), BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard (15pts)
        * Warhorse (16pts)
            (Swiftstride (BRB-76))
            Barding (4pts)

* Master Engineer (65pts)
* Witch Hunter (55pts)     
* Witch Hunter (60pts)
     
+ Core + (600pts)
* Archers (70pts)
        (Regimental Unit (AB-30), Skirmishers (BRB-77))
        10x Archers (70pts)
 * Halberdiers (125pts)
        (Regimental Unit (AB-30))
        15x Halberdiers (90pts)
        * Archers (35pts)
            5x Archers (35pts) (Detachment (AB-30), Skirmishers (BRB-77))
 * Halberdiers (125pts)
        (Regimental Unit (AB-30))
        15x Halberdiers (90pts)
        * Archers (35pts)
            5x Archers (35pts) (Detachment (AB-30), Skirmishers (BRB-77))

    * Knightly Orders (110pts)
       
    * Knightly Orders Inner Circle (170pts)

    * Demigryph Knights (174pts)
    * Demigryph Knights (174pts) 
    * Flagellants (192pts)
    * Reiksguard Knights (135pts)
       
+ Rare + (370pts)
    * Helblaster Volley Gun (120pts)
    * Steam Tank (250pts)
        (Large Target (BRB-72), Random Movement (variable) (BRB-74), Steam Points (AB-51), Steel Behemoth (AB-51), Terror (BRB-78), Unbreakable (BRB-78))


Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Freman Bloodglaive on April 28, 2012, 08:32:06 PM
It's great you beat down the Daemons but you might want to remove the points costs from your post.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 29, 2012, 09:35:39 AM
yeah. Wonder if there is a clean view option in battlescribe, the idea that I can just copy paste the list is good, but using more time to clean it up so its readable takes longer than just writing the thing from scratch.-- and viola would you know, looks like there is. It just had to actually make an effort an search a bit.

Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 29, 2012, 04:22:48 PM
Ive done some changes to the list lately.

And one thing Im going to try out is Heavens instead of the light lore. I have a feeling the steam tank just might do well on its own. Depends hugely on the match up of course. And against opponents with cannons and such, the life bloom surely will be missed.

I might return to life, after trying out heavens for a while though. Heavens packs a good mix of combat buffs, debuffs, and the rest is just pure damage spells. And do note how utterly sick the 6th spell actually is.. chain lightning. On a 3+ it goes to a new target ::heretic::

Core:
15 halberdiers
15 halberdiers
8 knightly orders gw
7 inncer circle kngiths with flaming banner
10 spearmen
Special
3 demigryphs
3 demigryphs
18 greatswords with +1 ld banner
6 reiksguard
Rare
Celestial hurricanum
Steam tank

Heroes
Battle wizard- lore of heavens
General of the empire- pegasuss, cloak of ulric, charmed shield
Captain bsb dawnstone, dragonhelm
Warrior Priest ench shield, luckstone

Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 29, 2012, 10:52:12 PM
The thing I want to try out with the change of lore, is how insanly good can it actually get when you cast the reroll 1s to hit, and to wound, when you hit on 2s and wound on 2s.

To get that I need troops with higher ws to begin with, and add the hurricanum, and then add the heavens buffs on top of that.

In many cases it will be hit on 3+ and wound on 3+, and re.roll the 1s, meaning only 2s actually fail to do anything.

The iceschard spell gives -1 to hit on the opponent, so that also benefit you more if they already need 4+ to hit you, combared to 3+

Curse of the mindnight wind, makes the opponent re-roll all 6s when rolling to hit, to wound and armour saves.
--- so in short you have 3 really kick ass good buff/debuff spells going on here.  And notice, you can be hitting your opponent on 2s, and he can be hitting you on 5+, and be forced to re-roll any 6 that might come up.

That spell cast on anything stuck with the steam tank will pretty much make it near indestructible.

The rest of the deck, consists of pretty much str 6 from the heavens spells, in different guises. Most notably is the chain lightning, its pretty much the foot of gork, d6 str 6 hits and goes on to next unit within 6" on a 3  and no, bad stuff can happen???!!!  Darn thats pretty much imba right there if you ask me.

Comet of casandora ?   The thing is unstoppable once summoned.. vs static armies, its sure going to hurt like crazy.  And against warmachine clusters--.. oh yes, I shall look to the heavens for salvation!  If you boost this spell, you bring down the comet with 2+ markers already, and it adds 2 for each turn its delayed... that is for those who does not know the spell,   2d6+2 hits on all units within 2d6, at str 4+2=6.
next turn it would be, 2d6+4 at str 8--- would hate to be a dwarf player against that.

The last spell is uranons thunderbolt, a str 6 d6 with 24 range at 10+
And the lore attribute is that all flyers take extra d6 str 4 if hit by any spells at all.
And even the Wind blast spell has its merits--- you can push enemy units back d3+1or d6+2 with boosted..

Cant wait to try this one out. ::heretic::
Have you empire players been having this much fun all along?  I find the empire book to be just a box of chocolates thats a pleasure to open each and every time.  Having accsess to all 8 lores of magic is just pure awsomeness, and can have huuuge impact on the playstyle. This is something neither my dark elf and orcs and goblins have ever been able to, and I am enjoying the possibilities it opens up.

Took a look at the gathering of greatswords thread, to see if I found any inspiration, and that I did.  I very much liked the look of these guys:
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j224/schwartzland/Ordo2.jpg)

They remind me of the elves at helms deep in the lotr movie.  I wont copy the idea, but, I will say this is the picture that got me inspired, and spawned the idea I now have. (I will come back to them, when Ive made some tests)

Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: rothgar13 on April 29, 2012, 11:13:29 PM
...Are your games usually under ETC comp restrictions? That would be a big impediment for me - it really limits the amount of data I can get out of your games and observations, because the restrictions really make it a very different games, to the point that I refer to it as "ETCHammer", because the gameplay is just so wildly divergent from Warhammer as written.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: polybus11 on April 30, 2012, 12:42:30 AM
I noticed how quickly the flagellants got dropped from your list.  I know how it is to want to try new things all the time, but the things that underwhelm generally get sidelined quickly.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 30, 2012, 11:09:29 AM
polybus, yes they are out for a the time beeing.

But its not that the flagellants in themselves are the one thats not performing. It got more to do with my inability to find a good solution to providing fast chaff for myself.  Without it, there is just very hard for me to ensure that I am on the charging end of things, and there lies some part of the problem.

But there is more :eusa_wall:  I am used to using my own chaff with good range to charge and clear away other chaff units.  Now I have huge problems if I want a reliable way to remove fast flying chaff with my list, and removing the flagellants is a pre-emptive move because I know it will be a huge problem against good opponents that exploits the frenzy, and drags the flaggies backwards or sideways with such chaff.

I was hoping I could deal with the chaff with a hellblaster, and quite a bit of archers, and 2 witch hunters to boost the archers to be able to deal with most chaff.- But I dont see it working as reliably as Id like, -.-- the problem is the flying thing, and skirmish .. archers dont do jack shit against that.
So if I cant deal with chaff, I will remove the things they can actually truly hurt, and thats the hellblaster, and the flaggelants.

But it irritates me that for now that's the solution-  I could try and fix the problem, with outriders, and keeping the hellblaster, then I could also keep the flagelants, but I must try and do with what models I actually have, instead of buying more I don't have.. I think its called money.. thats what they want in return when you get those models- :dry:
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 30, 2012, 11:16:47 AM
rothgar-  some of the games I play will be against etc comp, but most will not. Personally I don't like the etc way of comping, and the strange "bubble" that etc games takes place in.  The way etc games are played in the team vs team setting is not a good premise for a comp on normal 1vs1 games the way I see it.

Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: Darknight on April 30, 2012, 12:16:32 PM
Many people seem to have a degree of success with using a Pegasus Captain as chaff-hunting - it is mobile and can pack a punch. If you gave him some good protection, it might work.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: rothgar13 on April 30, 2012, 01:34:43 PM
rothgar-  some of the games I play will be against etc comp, but most will not. Personally I don't like the etc way of comping, and the strange "bubble" that etc games takes place in.  The way etc games are played in the team vs team setting is not a good premise for a comp on normal 1vs1 games the way I see it.

I agree so much with this, and thanks for letting me know. :)

I'd also like to second Darknight's suggestion of the Captasus. If you're feeling particularly gutsy, you can even kit him out with a cheap magic weapon, the Talisman of Preservation, and make him the BSB, so that your Leadership bubble is mobile and can pop Ethereal units.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: strollinthewoods on April 30, 2012, 10:18:21 PM
Trying to incorporate the pegasuss heroes back into the list.

Im not used to actually caring if my mage gets blown to pieces, as they have been lvl 1 mages in the past, and blowing up usually meant they already had earned their points back.

Im giving him the earthing rod, to be able to re-roll results of 2-4.  The rest i can take my chances with, but that one i don`t fancy very much.
And I do like to make sure important spells go through, so I'm prepared to roll on the table quite a lot.

The mage will go in the spearmen unit 1" behind one of the other units- halberdiers, or greatswords most likely.  Making it hard for chaff to get to him. 

The list:

Battle wizard: Heavens lore
earthing rod
Captain bsb  fullplate, gw, shield, dawnstone, dragonhelm, pegasuss with both upgrades
Captain fullplate, lance, charmed shield, luckstone, pegasuss with both upgrades
Warrior Priest GENERAL  Enchanted shield, opal amulet, sword of might, heavy armour, warhorse w barding

2x15 halberdiers
8 knightly orders gw
7 Inner circle flaming banner
10 spearmen

2x3 demi gryphs
18 greatswords
6 reiksguard, standard of discipline

hurricanum
steam tank

Total 2399 pts.

The Warrior priest will join the reiksguard in the center of my lines, and be my only means of getting a ld 9 in this list.

There is quite a number of ways you can go about using the standard of discipline to get that ld 9 in this list. Both in terms of what unit to give the banner, and what hero to nominate as your general.

Ic, reiks, greaswords, and demis all can be carriers.  I do think that the reiks, and greatswords with their stubborn is the safest bet, and that the reiks looks like the best bet, when your hero is mounted.

I am very much looking forward to play test this one. And I'm most interested in seeing how heavens works as a lore of choice.
Title: Re: Stroll thinks about the empire.
Post by: rothgar13 on April 30, 2012, 10:36:52 PM
The lack of shooting makes me a bit uncomfortable. Have you considered carving out the points to replace those Spearmen with Crossbowmen?