Topic: Challenges=difficult?

[TheBelgianGuy]

Here's a question for you all.
A few days ago I played in our local club tourney, I had my Arch Lector on War Altar.
During a game with a Brettonian player, the following issue popped up: I had slaughtered one unit of his knights (can't remember the name, they weren't grail knights though) with a few turns of Hellblaster fire (don't ask how I got a few turns with it  ), only his lord survived. Next round, he charges my Arch Lector with his 2nd large unit of knights, and this lord.

I ask for a challenge, having Van Horstmans Speculum with my AL. What happens next?
I argued he couldn't refuse my challenge, since his Lord was in combat on his own, and could not be sent somewhere out of combat. He pointed out he had a unit champion in his unit of knights, and that if he refused a challenge, in which case I normally can choose which character/champion is sent away from combat, I was unable to choose the Lord since he couldn't go away from combat, so had to choose the champion.

We read the rulebook, but couldn't find a definitive answer. Since it was really like my 7th battle and I didn't know much besides the basic rules, and he wasn't too sure about it either we asked some of the other guys, and ultimately after lots of back-and-forth debating between 6 people, it was judged in my favour.

This meant I could easily take his Lord with the AL using his own stats, and his unit of knights waisted a charge. Next round, I charged his knights in the flank with a unit of 22 greatswords, killed his lord, and his one remaining pegasus knight (he had charged this pegasus knight in the rear of my Arch Lector as well) with a charge from my own knights. His knights fled and hilariously enough my Greatswords caught them.

If it had been ruled in his favour, he could've put his unit champion in the back, slaughtered my Arch Lector with his Lord and charging knights, overrun his lord into my unit of 5 knights, flee with his unit from my greatswords,...


TL;DR?
Recap: what if a lone character is in a multiple combat, with a unit champion on his side, and the opponent asks for a challenge. Can the lone character refuse because of the unit champion, or not?

[Volks]

You issue a challenge, he can choose which of his 'challenge accepting models' he wants to accept with. If none then he declines and nothing happens.

You cannot unfortunately challenge a specific model or unit unless that is the only model/unit in combat with your character.

[TheBelgianGuy]

I understand that bit - however when he refuses a challenge, normally I would be allowed to send back a character or champion I choose...  but I can't send his lord away because he's alone... and I can't select the unit champion either, according to the rulebook... but if I can't choose anybody, than surely he can't refuse my challenge either...

Now, I know rules are not necessarily logical...

[Melchior]

According to page 102 of the basic rule book, under the heading "Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide" it states that you cannot refuse a challenge if it's not possible to move your characters out of the way of base contact with the enemy unit.

In the situation you described, his Lord could not move out of the way and thus could not refuse a challenge. He would be forced to accept with either his champion or his lord.

[Athiuen]

According to page 102 of the basic rule book, under the heading "Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide" it states that you cannot refuse a challenge if it's not possible to move your characters out of the way of base contact with the enemy unit.

In the situation you described, his Lord could not move out of the way and thus could not refuse a challenge. He would be forced to accept with either his champion or his lord.

This seems like it is the answer.  Unless you can send a champion to the back of a unit.  I don't think you can.

[Krag]

Correct, ths lord cannot get away, and so must fight the challenge -unless the knight champion accepts it.
If the champion accepts the challenge then no other model can strike at the lector model (including the altar) making the lector safe from harm.

Therefore it gives the lord no advantage to refuse the challenge, as the champion probably wont slay the lector, the lord will sooner or later have to face the challenge, and the only reason for not taking the challenge with his lord in first turn is to deny the lector hatred (wich will then help against the champion).

[Darknight]

A Bretonnian player refused a challenge with his Lord? Does fluff mean nothing to him.

[TheBelgianGuy]

and the only reason for not taking the challenge with his lord in first turn is to deny the lector hatred (wich will then help against the champion).

Well, I imagine Van Horstmans Speculum is a big reason not to take a challenge :p

Thanks for the answers, guys.

[polybus11]

Not only did he not want to face the speculum but he wanted his knights to be able to pound the altar with their lances on the charge and not sit idly.

[towishimp]

A Bretonnian player refused a challenge with his Lord? Does fluff mean nothing to him.

I think he may even lose Blessing of the Lady if he refuses a challenge.  But maybe not, haven't looked at their book in awhile.

[Krag]

Not only did he not want to face the speculum but he wanted his knights to be able to pound the altar with their lances on the charge and not sit idly.

That might have been his intension. But as long as the lector issues a challenge, that wont happen as no one is allowed to strike at a model that is in a challenge.
And as the lord was alone, the knights would never get to pound the altar before the lord was gone (as long as the lector challenged).

Now, if the lord had been in a unit big enough for him to move to a position so he was not in base contact with the altar, then he could refuse, and as the champion is allowed to ignore a challenge, the knights could strike at the altar.

If endeed striking at the altar was the intension, it was a very bad strategic move to charge with a lone lord, he should then have let the knights charge on their ovn.

-if I was a Brettonian lord, i would avoid the VHS too...
-Yes, i also think he would loose the ladys blessing if he refused, but I dont have the Brett army book, so not sure.

[Silver Wolf]

It seems like nobody mentioned this part (and I'm not really sure if it means anything in this case)...

A unit champion can accept a challenge, but he doesn't have to. If champion refuses a challenge he still stays in the front rank.
I had a debate about this not so long ago... Apparently that's written somewhere in the rulebook (under challenge or champion part).

[Athiuen]

A Bretonnian player refused a challenge with his Lord? Does fluff mean nothing to him.

I think he may even lose Blessing of the Lady if he refuses a challenge.  But maybe not, haven't looked at their book in awhile.

Yes Brett knights who refuse to accept a challenge lose the blessing of the lady.

It seems like nobody mentioned this part (and I'm not really sure if it means anything in this case)...

A unit champion can accept a challenge, but he doesn't have to. If champion refuses a challenge he still stays in the front rank.
I had a debate about this not so long ago... Apparently that's written somewhere in the rulebook (under challenge or champion part).

But the if the unit champion refuses then the Lord must fight in the challenge as he has no-where to go.

[Lord Tilioth]

Brets lose the blessing of the lady if they refuse a challenge and i believe if they flee they lose it too

Also you can't just deny a challenge and then with a champion deny it and still not get moved to the back even though they can't? (champion)
someone has to accept the challenge

and like darknight said

A Bretonnian player refused a challenge with his Lord? Does fluff mean nothing to him.

i don't care what the situation was i always follow the fluff of my empire army.....it's not fun or a game unless you play it like it should be lol player knowledge should not interfere with character knowledge as many D&D players or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplayers would say

lets act this out, i'm the brettonian lord, foppish arrogant think i'm so much superior to everything and i have so much honor even a dwarf would cower from my honor lol

"I see that heretic evil piece of shit over there!! i'm going to charge it to kill it and gain more honor and glory..."

"oh i see he has some magical thing that means i'm going to automatically assume that it's going to steal my abilities so i'll lose this fight.....nah i'll just refuse lose all my honor and not go into combat"

you're right that sounds totally like something that would happen in fluff except there are a few things wrong here....bret lords don't turn down challenges lightly, you can't know what ever obscure piece of magical equipment or artifact in the warhammer world looks like and does, so thus how could that lord possibly know what the item does.

[TexasYankee]

A Bretonnian player refused a challenge with his Lord? Does fluff mean nothing to him.

Agreed! That dude just lost his man card.

[TheBelgianGuy]

There's a time for fluff, but not during a tournament! 

[Ambrose]

There's a time for fluff, but not during a tournament! 

I have not played in a tournament, nor have I even witnessed one, but do they not score points for fluff and stuff?  (painted army with a theme, etc..) or are most tournaments based purely on wining?

[commandant]

There's a time for fluff, but not during a tournament! 

a tournament is the best time for fluff, try and breed some life back into them.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I have not played in a tournament, nor have I even witnessed one, but do they not score points for fluff and stuff?  (painted army with a theme, etc..) or are most tournaments based purely on whining?

Fixed that for you.