Topic: What is GW up to?

[Deuce]

This did use to be a friendly place where people came to chat about Warhammer, there were arguments and edgy characters posting sure, but that was not the norm and they were the minority. It feels lately that it has gone very much the other way now.

Taking that as read: these edgy characters and infuriated individuals are not professional trolls (mostly). They're dissatisfied ex-customers. If a company has driven so many of its customers away, and annoyed so many of them in the process that the noise from them is now drowning out discussion from their current satisfied customers, then surely they must be doing something wrong?

GW are pretty much entirely reliant on word of mouth to attract new customers, since they don't do external advertising or even attend general wargaming events. Pretty much the only way someone's going to find out about GW without being told about it is by accidentally wandering into a shop (many of which are tucked away away from major traffic areas).

Right now, if what you say is true (and I think it is) the prevailing word of mouth is negative about GW and that's plastered all over the internet. So, given the above, and irrespective of whether these disgruntled ex-customers are actually correct in their complaints, retreating from social media, removing information from the website, and generally putting up more barriers between them and the customer, is a terrible business strategy.

[Darknight]

There are two separate issues there, Deuce - yes, GW's practices have caused a backlash and their lack of engagement and traditional promotion means that really hurts them. Absolutely true.

But I think Siberius was referring less about that and more about this forum in particular. As has been discussed before, this place is (or was) a really nice place to hang out, without the rudeness etc. common elsewhere. But threads like this result in sudden, horrible attacks - from the owner of the site! - which really make people question if they want to have anything to do with this place any more.

Seriously - the owner of the site treats people like that? Someone who, without wishing to boast, really helps the site by putting in the extra effort to do things like the 2nd Round Pleasant Surprise? I did nothing to deserve such treatment - I simply expressed an alternate view, and I got sworn at, insulted and then there is nothing even approaching an apology but rather a justification?

Right now, for better or worse, places like this are the community for Warhammer and Games Workshop - and we have a situation where apparently it's okay for site owners to break the rules and throw profanity about, and then justify it.

GW's practices aren't making it easy for them to recruit new customers, but neither are things like that.

[valmir]

None of GW's business decisions are bad in isolation. But when you draw in the context of their market, they start to look quite bad. What I see in GW is a failure to realise the effects that their business decisions will have on that market.

The GW market is a very strange one. It's one that is largely artificial, and that they have created by themselves. In other words, market longevity is something that needs to be seriously considered. It's not possible to assume that, by default, there will always be people who need "the best miniatures in the world".

GW fails to see that the market itself is community-driven. If I were heading GW, keeping that community on-side would be close to ma number one priority. I think there's an interesting point of comparison in much younger companies such as Mierce Miniatures or Mantic Games, and their very different attitudes to, say, podcasts.

[Ambrose]

I think GW strategy is not geared toward a community, but impulse buying.  You see this everywhere.  GW does support the community by giving them the bare minimum (FAQ, Erratas, etc.), but their main push seems to be to have people, new and old to the game, buy the new thing on their page.

One just has to look at all the limited editions of items.  They produce a run of them, make their profit, and feel no obligation to the community to further support the product or even provide it.  I really found this out with Bloods in the Badlands.  Here you have the OFFICIAL siege rules for 8th edition.  And they limited the number of copies?  You can't get these rules anymore?  That is just silly, but it worked.  They made their print and profit and do not need to provide the rules to everyone, even thought it is just a supplement.

What does this do?  The next time siege rules come up in a limited edition print, the product will sell faster.

In addition, I think GW hopes to sell to new people over the long term players?  Why?  Because a new player will buy the box set, get excited about the game (it new to them, it is a good game for the deal, etc).  Now, once into the game, they will buy a lot for their new chosen army.  This is the key people GW wants to target.  Me, who has two armies and buys stuff occasionally, I'm not their target, because I have already spent my money.  That is why GW stores focus on new players and, although some have good communities, attention to a potential new buyer always overshadows old players.

I don't hold this against GW.  They are a company and they are there to make money.  Like mentioned above, anyone who thinks GW is not in for the money is IMO too idealistic.

Ambrose

[Siberius]

But I think Siberius was referring less about that and more about this forum in particular. As has been discussed before, this place is (or was) a really nice place to hang out, without the rudeness etc. common elsewhere. But threads like this result in sudden, horrible attacks ... which really make people question if they want to have anything to do with this place any more.

Indeed. Darknight joined a discussion with an alternate viewpoint, argued quite reasonably and politely. And the response is just way over the top towards him. It's not his fault that GW does whatever it does! Nobody noticed but he even agreed with a lot of the sentiments people put forward!

There is a place for venting and a thread like this which is quite obviously questioning GW practices does seem like the place. I accept that. But the aggressiveness towards reasoned discussion is a bit of a worry.


Where my own issue lies is that the sentiments put forth in these threads seems to seep into every facet of the forum. A thread pops up about 'how can we use handgunners' and a few posts in someone is exploding about how Cruddace ruined the book and how unbalanced it is. Why? That's just trampling over people who are trying to enjoy the hobby. The very people I thought that were welcome here.

When a new book comes out and a thread appears in the Counts Tavern, over half the posts are people raging about the prices/unblanced nature of the rules. Often times before the rules or book has come out. Just mindless hatred for the whole thing. If you want to hate it, that's ok. But why infect everyone else's enjoyment of it by shouting them down with how terrible you find it.

I really wanted to leave the forum lately and sure, that's not big loss to it, but it makes me sad that you can't have an enjoyable conversation here anymore. This was where I came back in the day because it was so welcome and enthusiastic to help people out. Now there are a few of those people left, but more often than not they seem to be chided for this. It's weird.

If this is going a bit off topic, I apologize.

[Darknight]

Siberius, please don't leave.

Excellent post. Your absence would mean less of such a thing. And that would be a great loss.

[valmir]

When a new book comes out and a thread appears in the Counts Tavern, over half the posts are people raging about the prices/unblanced nature of the rules. Often times before the rules or book has come out. Just mindless hatred for the whole thing. If you want to hate it, that's ok. But why infect everyone else's enjoyment of it by shouting them down with how terrible you find it.

Yep. I just can't wait to start raging about the prices of the new wood elves when they come out. I've been waiting so long for that rant...

I don't know. I feel like things are being taken more personally than they were ever intended. But maybe I'm being blind. The GW "issue" is one that people are really irate about. It's a very personal, very sore point for many of us. So this is obviously going to be a high-stakes argument, and one which is definitely going to push the boundaries of reasoned, abstract debate. It touches a nerve.

To make a grotesquely inappropriate analogy, it's like an uncle kidnapping your kid sister and holding her for ransom, and then, in response to your understandable outrage/sense of betrayal, someone says "well, it makes sense from a cost-benefit point of view". I'm not saying the situation is actually like that. Just that the emotional mechanics related to defence of a (perceived) betrayer are similar.

None of which excuses ad hominem attacks. Both sides should be aware of this highly-charged emotional context when wading into a debate like this. We all need to have a bit of perspective on our own fury, and a little bit of respect for the fury of others.

And it was me that first said "nerd-rage". Because beyond a certain point, it is. For me, that line is the blurry one between discussing what GW should be doing to benefit the hobby (and thus their business) and lamenting GW's stupidity for not doing things "exactly as I want them".

[patsy02]

At the core, I agree. What I disagree with is the method by which the rage is expressed (it is not productive, and actually harmful to this community and the community as a whole) and the very existence of the "rage" itself.

I don't know. You could call the general attitude towards GW unproductive, but I think people like myself are butthurt and horse-beating for a reason. GW's decisions are usually so perplexing that I feel frustrated 'GW fucks up again' threads and wall-banging smilies are perfectly natural responses.

That the 'rage' is 'unproductive' implies that there's a productive way for fans to influence a profit-oriented GW outside of voting with your wallet. They're in the business of selling miniatures, and outside of that GW has no interest in the people who have been in the ecosystem for 10-20-30 years, even when it might benefit them.

GW have made choices - and, very sadly, those choices really do leave a lot of us in the cold. They neglect a core group of their initial customers.
They have moved on. And that's really hard to accept. They don't cater to the kind of hobbyists we were (and in many ways still are) any more.

Yup.  Electing to leave a quarter century old ecosystem of dedicated fans in the dump in order to become a glorified toy company is their loss though, I think. We'll find out in time, anyway.

Excellent post. Your absence would mean less of such a thing. And that would be a great loss.

You two should just bone and get it over with. 

[M. Armand]

And if GW don't listen, then people at least tried. Right now, if someone from GW visited this thread, what would they see? They see nothing they can act on - except the vague suggestion to lower prices and a nostalgia for providing things they've chosen not to provide any more.

Except, they CAN act on many of these complaints.  I believe many of my complaints up-thread could be accomplished by GW without spending any more money or resources than they already are.  I've worked for the company, I know what they are capable of, but they GWrefuse to do it anymore because once all the cost-saving measures had taken place, they realized there isn't anymore water tightening of the GW ship that they can do.  Throughout these cost saving measures they have increasingly put themselves in a position where it appears that they couldn't go back, as a business man I know it's all about risks, the problem is that GW is not willing to make any now.

    Games Workshop still produced miniatures in the same numbers per package that they had even 10 years ago.
    Games Workshop still produced the old White Dwarf ala Paul Sawyer ("Fat Bloke") and back.
    Games Workshop still ran summer campaigns like Storm of Chaos and 13th Black Crusade.
    Games Workshop still supported scratch built terrain, and the "Hobby" as it is meant to be: Fun and Inspiring.
    Games Workshop still had games at GAMES Day.
    Games Workshop still had the same level of passion as their fans (which lead to quality, or at least higher quality products than we have now).
    Games Workshop still supported/acknowledged the fan community.  (Anyone remember when Druchii.net was mentioned in White Dwarf for helping bring about a lot of the positive changes in one of the Dark Elves Army Books?)
    Games Workshop still supported the Specialist Games.

All of this could be done by GW this year, without hardly any extra expenditure of any sort, besides logistical expense.  They could simply use the costs set aside for the promotional materials for their Hobby Centres (which don't generate sufficient extra sales vs the expenditure) and use that for the summer campaign materials, if it all couldn't just be covered in White Dwarf. 

I'll take back the risk statement earlier and say that GW did take a risk with White Dwarf weekly and Warhammer Visions.  Weekly is deemed to be somewhat successful, but I would change its name to Warhammer Visions since it is more of a marketing organ than the actual WV is.  Take the funds from the old Warhammer Visions and recreate the old White Dwarf, content and all.  They have the content to put in there, it's whether they are willing.  Much of the rest is down to the attitude of the company.  GW should realize that Specialist Games are simply another sales and marketing tool for their product assortment. 

The first complaint can be addressed, I am utterly sure of it.  Each sprue costs mere pence to produce, and a few extra pence for packaging due to their economies of scale.  GW could accomplish all of this with little extra expenditure and no change in prices and see their market position the better for it.

[valmir]

Great post, Armand. You're right. There is so much that they could do in terms of "community outreach" that would cost little to nothing, but which would directly improve sales. Either of White Dwarf or of their models, or both. Some of this stuff would be so easy.

[Warlord]

To DKs point, and likely the thinking GW apply to your points - why bother?

They are addicted to being able to measure any activity with direct profit or cost reduction, and these things you mention do not result in that.

And its hard to encourage passion in employees whom you have beaten the free-thinking out of.


The scratch built terrain is an interesting one.
To my mind, it helps create a cheaper entry point and foster the hobby.
However, as I think the outcome of this thread has revealed, they would prefer to sell terrain at the outset, assuming the short lifespan of a customer and providing the option for instant gratification to enable to customer to game immediately.

[Darknight]

When I worked at GW as a redshirt, this was before the advent of the great expansion in the hobby materials and terrain - we were just beginning to see the advent of the paint station. There were hills and trees and the battleboards. The battlemat came in, too.

We kept the minimum of hills in stock (because we had to) and a couple of battleboards (which were 2x4 pieces of MDF sheet painted green). We always had to order new trees and battlemats (because they were super popular, and because we could rarely order enough).

But when someone wanted a hill, we would say "Well, you could get this for whatever it costs [I don't remember] . . . or you can literally walk over the street to the DIY store and get some insulating foam and cut it. Go there, buy some and a little pot of green paint and some woodworking glue, and come back here." We'd show them how to make a hill.

But that was the tailend of that, and the attitude was changing when I was there and after I left it continued to develop and change. The idea was that people wanted something easy - they wanted a game they could start playing without a lot of effort. What effort there was, should be oriented towards the figures - not the scenery.

The notion was that one should be able to just buy good scenery, because many people (most?) simply couldn't make it properly. To do a truly "Imperial" building is a lot of effort. It needs careful application of the bitz box and a good aesthetic. Many people don't have that.

The problem was, they went from saying "Well, don't buy this hill - let's make one!" to "You can buy this hill, or make one - either way you choose" to "You should buy this hill - and we're not going to tell you how it's made."

I think the middle ground of "Yes, we have some splendid terrain pieces here - absolutely top-notch. Look at this thing - it's AWESOME! But you can build your own - maybe expand on these, use them as a base, fit them into something else, whatever" would be the best way to go.

[M. Armand]

To DKs point, and likely the thinking GW apply to your points - why bother?

Why bother?  Because these practices, in a quantifiable manner, made them money in the past.  The problem is, GW can't seem to see back past the smoke haze that was the cost saving measures.  The company culture is something that can be changed, if upper management has the will to do it, hiring people who are not only great at what they do but are passionate as well from the outset.  It's not hard, it really isn't.

I think the middle ground of "Yes, we have some splendid terrain pieces here - absolutely top-notch. Look at this thing - it's AWESOME! But you can build your own - maybe expand on these, use them as a base, fit them into something else, whatever" would be the best way to go.

The creative terrain point was simply me pointing to how GW has edged to stifling creativity in that sphere of the hobby.  I experienced the tail-end of "you can do it yourself, or this" too and I saw the store I frequented sell the Terrain Making guides and the like quite frequently, and the hobby was more than just the game.  It's simply another avenue that GW refuses to think will make them money because they are looking at it from the wrong point of view.  Sell guides, bitz, and pieces so people can make their own terrain alongside the pre-made products.  It's simply another profit center, and if my experience with those older products were anything to go by, they will sell.

[Warlord]

To be fair, those are some of the articles I used to love seeing in White Dwarf - the kitbashing of terrain boxes to make cool buildings, etc.

But yes, that was the point I was trying to make earlier - that GW now provide those things so that GW is a one stop shop. It makes it easier, but also more expensive.

I honestly have no problems with their terrain kits - for the most part, I consider them reasonably priced. Not the Realm Battle Board though.

I agree with you though, they could easily suggest how to supplement what they provide with either natural alternatives (rocks, twigs etc), or generics (such as train set trees).

[Finlay]

"this is not an issue of a bad strategy, but rather a good strategy badly exercised. The strategy is simple and intelligent - "sell models". It is being badly implemented - arguably because of removal of the various "hobby" elements from site."

if the removel of the hobby/customer focus is affecting the profit (which I firmly believe it is. You are focusing purely on the website, not all the other bullshit crap GW have pulled over the last 5 years), then the "sell model" only strategy is simple but not intelligent.



~"But when you draw in the context of their market, they start to look quite bad. What I see in GW is a failure to realise the effects that their business decisions will have on that market.

The GW market is a very strange one. It's one that is largely artificial, and that they have created by themselves. In other words, market longevity is something that needs to be seriously considered. It's not possible to assume that, by default, there will always be people who need "the best miniatures in the world".

GW fails to see that the market itself is community-driven"


this, times like, infinity trillion.
You CANNOT simply compare Gw to a "normal" company.

[Fandir Nightshade]

It is amazing how Darkknight is always shifting back to....GW is now giving the customers what they want and they shaped the current state of GW.

Which is kind of funny and totally unreasonable.

[The Ol Perfesser]

Indeed. Darknight joined a discussion with an alternate viewpoint, argued quite reasonably and politely.

I agree with this.

Except, they CAN act on many of these complaints.  I believe many of my complaints up-thread could be accomplished by GW without spending

& I agree with this.

Now I'm going to put on my helmet and utter this heresy..... 
I think that the 8ed BRB is very close to being a solid set of rules that could become very playable and enjoyable both with beer and pretzels and at the tournament level.
I honestly believe that with some editing and a few judicious revisions here and there it could become a very solid game.

The problem as I see it, lies in the writing of the Army Books. But those too, can be fixed. 

My point is this (as I've mentioned in my earlier posts) I think the game system is the key to GW marketing.  The cost of fixing this game is not nearly as high as producing a new product line of miniatures/paints/terrain etc.
They have within their grasp an opportunity to fix something, right now, which would go a long way to alleviating "nerd rage" and at the same time boost sales.

I don't think issuing updated army books on a predictable cycle, backed up by a solid core set of rules (that doesn't change much) is going to break GW's budget.  I would like to see it happen...I'm a bit worried about the impending 9ed.

   I'm ready for the arrows now....

[Fandir Nightshade]

*fires up the steam tank and aims the cannon at the ol perfesser*

There are some internal balance issues both with the brb and the army books.

Also external balances with the different army books.

Take the different lores of magic and tell me why nobody takes the lore of fire in a competetive environment for example.

On top of that some rules are unnecessarily awkward like the true line of sight.

Beside that...yes 8th edition is in several ways much better than 7th edition.

Also I agree that a proper core rule set with expansions and updated army books with new units and revised rules should be the way to go. Fixing choices that are too strong or too weak should be the priority in the army updates. Grant rules to improve unit entries alter point costs or take away rules that make things too complicated or awkward.

Get rid of overly random stuff like the demonic what happens in the magic phase chart also the dwarf rule to have 1/3 chance of hatred for the army.

[Calisson]

(Anyone remember when Druchii.net was mentioned in White Dwarf for helping bring about a lot of the positive changes in one of the Dark Elves Army Books?)

That's the very reason why I registered in D.net. It was my first attempt at participating to a forum and I'm still there.
I came here later, based on a recommandation of a D.netter.

I really wanted to leave the forum lately and sure, that's not big loss to it, but it makes me sad that you can't have an enjoyable conversation here anymore. This was where I came back in the day because it was so welcome and enthusiastic to help people out. Now there are a few of those people left, but more often than not they seem to be chided for this. It's weird.

Welcome to Druchii.net! 
(sorry for more off topic, I couldn't resist - I would rather enjoy two grown-up forums than a single one
W-E, please keep the conversation sound).

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

It seems, the FAQ were playing Hide and Seek: http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html

[M. Armand]

It seems, the FAQ were playing Hide and Seek: http://www.blacklibrary.com/faqs-and-errata.html

Good to know they are up.  Strange place for them, in my opinion.  I'd have put them at the end of their respective game links on the main site, but I guess that would ruin the whole web store approach. 

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

No new updates, however.

[NPC_Dave]

I don't see how GW can ever solve the problem of "too good for the points" models because fundamentally the problem is anticipating customer demand.

When they introduce a new model, do they have any idea of how much demand there will be for it? My guess is they can better anticipate demand for a "must buy" model more than an "only if you want it" model. So new models that they release in large quantities tend to be a better value for the points so demand will be high.

That is why so many pre-painted miniatures come in randomized booster boxes, that is a different way to solve the problem of anticipating customer demand.

[Fandir Nightshade]

Which is clearly a myth. Cost of the models and even new releases both in 40k and WFB had some really bad rules in the latest releases. There even have been whole armies that are still under average compared to other armies when they get released.


Also they would increase sales if they had a well balanced book as all options would be viable and people would tend to try out all the different units over the course of time instead of just using the best option units.

[mr chumley warner]

website looks pretty sharp, don't have time to read your comments gents, but my view is that they are turning warhammer models into resin/plastic toy looking models... I would much prefer to see less 1980's He-man style, and more serious looking models.

It all started to go wrong with ogre Kingdoms, the models look like He-man toys from when I was 5 ,

http://www.museumofchildhood.org.uk/__images/site-images/collections-images/must-have-toys-images/1980s/he-man,-mattel-inc,-taiwan,-1983-87.jpg