Author Topic: Chaos Dwarfs helped found the Empire! (Read 5327 times)

Kiwichris · « **on:** March 29, 2009, 10:46:21 AM »

This idea popped up on Chaos-Dwarfs online. The Massive Orc invasions that happened during the time of Sigmar were led by Black Orcs. This co-incides with the biggest and last Black Orc rebellion against the Chaos Dwarfs, in -100 (IC). After the Black Orcs (who were genetically created by the CD's) were defeated the Chaos Dwarfs let them withdraw, they fled east into the Old World and attacked the human tribes. Sigmar united them and defeated the Orcs in -1.

Makes you think.

http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=2736&pid=83750#pid83750

rufus sparkfire · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:55:54 AM »

Interesting logic there.

patsy02 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 29, 2009, 01:18:47 PM »

Thank you, Hashut!

MrDWhitey · « **Reply #3 on:** March 29, 2009, 01:24:27 PM »

Hashut is a kind, loving god.

Folken · « **Reply #4 on:** March 29, 2009, 07:55:11 PM »

Similar logic could be used that the dark elves helped found the empire by clearing out the elves and dwarves to give us and greenskins room.

phillyt · « **Reply #5 on:** March 29, 2009, 08:01:00 PM »

Additionally, there is evidence that Black Orcs appeared independant of the CD, meaning they were not so much genetically engineered as they were captively bred by the dwarves.

Phil

Priest_of_Morr · « **Reply #6 on:** March 29, 2009, 09:27:59 PM »

Thats really cool!!

Von Breden · « **Reply #7 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:29:22 PM »

So, because of the Chaos Dwarfs, this guy trying to unite his people against an old enemy was faced with greater enemies than ever before. Explain to me how that can be interpreted as help.

wissenlander · « **Reply #8 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:41:22 PM »

I agree Von Breden. That sounds quite unhelpful. Well, that's not totally true. That just meant that Sigmar could be even more manly and heroic.

Toro_Blanco · « **Reply #9 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:50:08 PM »

It's really "helped" in the same way the Japanese "helped" end WWII.

By causing a massive greenskin invasion, under the most powerful orcs humans had ever seen, the chaos dwarfs had provided a galvanizing event to force the humans to put aside their difficulties. All that was needed was a man with the vision to see that, and the strength and intellect to force it. The threat of annihilation was on their doorstep, and they had no choice but to unite or die.

Had the chaos dwarfs not had their rebellion and subsequent exile of black orcs, it is debatable how suited the empire would have been for Sigmar to unite it.

rufus sparkfire · « **Reply #10 on:** March 29, 2009, 10:52:12 PM »

Didn't Sigmar just conquer the other tribes rather than convince them to work together? I don't think an outside threat was even needed.

Toro_Blanco · « **Reply #11 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:03:17 PM »

According to the Black Library Book "The Life of Sigmar", it was mostly through cunning and guile that he united the various clans, rather than outright bloodshed.

Von Breden · « **Reply #12 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:06:51 PM »

The outside threat had always been there. It was only a matter of time before someone united them.

@TB: I wonder if he had, perhaps, been taught in the ways of the Skaven...

That'd be an awesome plot-twist. Skaven providing some buffer against the northern hordes. Empire-Skaven wars would be mere cullings to keep them weak enough not to pose a threat.

Toro_Blanco · « **Reply #13 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:12:25 PM »

From what I read in the book, it seems that Sigmar was (as befits a god) as brilliant as he was dangerous. He learned at a young age the importance of outwitting your foes, in addition to overpowering them.

The first two clans to fall under his service actually united to conquer the Unberogens, but Sigmar (having rescued the High King by this point) had a brilliant plan. They both demanded tribute from him, so Sigmar gave them dwarven weapons and armor, revealing that his men were better armored, better armed, better trained than BOTH regions, as well as having dwarf allies that could aid them in war. It left both tribes too frightened to dare to challenge him, and left Sigmar essentially in the position of giving THEM orders without a single drop of blood shed.

Really great read.

rufus sparkfire · « **Reply #14 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:15:13 PM »

Quote from: Toro_Blanco on March 29, 2009, 11:03:17 PM

According to the Black Library Book "The Life of Sigmar", it was mostly through cunning and guile that he united the various clans, rather than outright bloodshed.

Propaganda, surely. Isn't that supposed to be a Church of Sigmar publication?

I don't think there's a 'true' version of the Sigmar story, and I wouldn't want one. He's the King Arthur of the warhammer world.

Toro_Blanco · « **Reply #15 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:25:30 PM »

It's written in the perspective of watching the story, not some Sigmarite priest writing it down (though at the beginning it describes it as such).

It's hardly a COMPLETE telling, more a description of the major events in his known life (coming of age, rescue of the high king, early trials, the battle of black fire pass, etc.). Either way, still a great book.

rufus sparkfire · « **Reply #16 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:32:09 PM »

Sure, but I like the idea that the actual story of Sigmar is buried under two and a half millennia of exaggeration and distortion. It's more fun than having a precise account of what really happened. Especially since there are all sorts of contradictory Sigmar stories anyway.

phillyt · « **Reply #17 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:34:16 PM »

Err... nobody gives a shit about Black Library stories...

Phil

rufus sparkfire · « **Reply #18 on:** March 29, 2009, 11:36:20 PM »

Well, they do.

Though not me.

Kiwichris · « **Reply #19 on:** March 30, 2009, 01:30:23 AM »

I probably should have mentioned that the Orc invasions were led by Black Orcs who banded the greenskin tribes together making them more dangerous and hostile. It was the event itself that gave Sigmar the oppourtunity to rise.

Quote

Additionally, there is evidence that Black Orcs appeared independant of the CD, meaning they were not so much genetically engineered as they were captively bred by the dwarves.

Phil

Really? Where, if I may ask? Both the Chaos Dwarf book and the current O&G book say Black Orcs were specifically bred by the CD's. They only appeared outside the Plains of Zharr after the revolt.

Lord Etharion · « **Reply #20 on:** March 30, 2009, 02:39:52 AM »

Quote from: rufus sparkfire on March 29, 2009, 11:32:09 PM

Sure, but I like the idea that the actual story of Sigmar is buried under two and a half millennia of exaggeration and distortion. It's more fun than having a precise account of what really happened. Especially since there are all sorts of contradictory Sigmar stories anyway.

Yeah, especially since this leaves room for personal interpretation.

MiB · « **Reply #21 on:** March 30, 2009, 07:18:59 AM »

Quote from: PhillyT on March 29, 2009, 11:34:16 PM

Err... nobody gives a shit about Black Library stories...

Phil

A disturbing amount of people do, I've heard people actually *like* the Nagash story, not to mention the hero worship of Dan Abnett

MrDWhitey · « **Reply #22 on:** March 30, 2009, 07:59:57 AM »

I had to stop reading the Nagash book, I felt it was that bad

And I lapped up the Slayer series until Kislev.

phillyt · « **Reply #23 on:** March 30, 2009, 11:06:13 AM »

The O&G book states that their past is shrouded in mystery. The idea that they were made by the black orcs is referranced as a rumor. That they first appeared in the old world during sigmars time is chalked up to the chance that they maybe escaped their "supposed" creators.

All in all, the first two paragraphs of the BO entry use such ambiguous terms as mystery, shrouded, rumored, supposed, and perhaps.

GW has obviously stepped back from making the BO a CD creation. It is no longer certain, but rumor.

Phil

MrDWhitey · « **Reply #24 on:** March 30, 2009, 11:13:51 AM »

Which is a shame.

News:

Author Topic: Chaos Dwarfs helped found the Empire! (Read 5327 times)