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Author Topic: Count Martin of Stirland  (Read 5801 times)

Offline Kiwichris

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Count Martin of Stirland
« on: December 14, 2010, 04:34:43 AM »
This is a fluff question about Count Martin of Stirland who won the battle of Hel Fenn in 2145. I am sure I read something about him being elected Emperor after that feat, but cannot for the life of me remember where it was. This was during the age of 3 emperors which makes it even more tricky as there were several 'pretenders' to the throne all at the same time. I've gone through all the official Empire, VC and Undead books but haven't found anything about him becoming emperor.

Knowing me i'm just imagining things or the fluff i'm thinking of is outdated...

Offline MrAbyssal

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2010, 05:39:21 AM »
If it was during the time of 3 Emperors then wasn't the Stirland count one of the counts who declared themselves Emperor? Pretty sure it was Stirland and Talabecland, plus the elected Emperor.
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2010, 05:53:34 AM »
After the events of Hel Fenn, Martin von Kristallbach Count of Stirland was not named 'Emperor' as far as I know. The support of the Grand Theogonist would suggest Martin was considered to be the Sigmarite Emperor but this is never directly stated. Opposing Martin for the title of Emperor would have been the Ottilian Emperors of Talabecland, the Wolf Emperor of Middenheim, and the 'Electoral' Emperors of Marienburg. GW fluff is really poor at making a cohesive picture of political layout of the Empire during Vampire Wars, in fact the Vampire Counts trilogy and army book fluff ignore the existence of the Wolf Emperor by 2100. One can assume that Vlad von Carstein's devastating attack on the city removed the Wolf Emperor as a serious claimant to the throne in from 2050-2145 but we really are told nothing else. Other than the vague bits in the army books the best fluff available on Martin is found in the last book of the Vampire Wars trilogy and the chapter about Hel Fenn in The Empire at War (which is drawn entirely from the account in the novel).

If it was during the time of 3 Emperors then wasn't the Stirland count one of the counts who declared themselves Emperor? Pretty sure it was Stirland and Talabecland, plus the elected Emperor.

Negative. The Electors of Middenland and Talabecland are the self proclaimed Emperors. Marienburg retains the 'Elected' status after 1979 since its dynasty was the last to be elected in an official Electoral Council. Any Stirland 'Emperors' during the period are presumably Sigmarite supported Emperors.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2010, 10:44:09 AM »
This is a fluff question about Count Martin of Stirland who won the battle of Hel Fenn in 2145. I am sure I read something about him being elected Emperor after that feat, but cannot for the life of me remember where it was.

He was used as a character in our first forum campaign (the war of the Ostermark succession), where he stood to become emperor if he won. He didn't.

Possibly you read some of the related fluff and got the idea from there?
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Offline Johedl

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2010, 11:05:57 AM »
Quote
After the events of Hel Fenn, Martin von Kristallbach Count of Stirland was not named 'Emperor' as far as I know. The support of the Grand Theogonist would suggest Martin was considered to be the Sigmarite Emperor but this is never directly stated. Opposing Martin for the title of Emperor would have been the Ottilian Emperors of Talabecland, the Wolf Emperor of Middenheim, and the 'Electoral' Emperors of Marienburg. GW fluff is really poor at making a cohesive picture of political layout of the Empire during Vampire Wars, in fact the Vampire Counts trilogy and army book fluff ignore the existence of the Wolf Emperor by 2100.

It might have been that the Wolf Emperors withdraw their claim temperaly during this time. Durin the Wars of the Vampire Counts the three claimaints to the Imperial Throne are Ottilia, Countess of Talabecland, later succeeded by her daughter Ottilia, Ludwig, Count of Reikland, later succeeded by his son Lutwig and Helmut, Count of Marienburg, later succeeded by his son Helmar. According to http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Age_of_Three_Emperors#_note-0

Offline Talben21

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2010, 01:32:23 PM »
And just for reference Martin did not kill Manfred by himself. The renegade vampire Jerek Krueger (who was once grand master of the Knights of the White Wolf) played a big part in helping to kill Manfred. He stopped him from fleeing, tore off the Cartstein ring and then Martin used his runefang to finish the job. So really Krueger played a bigger part.

After Krueger killed Vlad van Carstein in a duel Vlad came back (due to the Carstein ring) and turned Krueger into a Vampire. But so noble was Krueger that he turned on the Von Carstein's and helped to kill Manfred who was his "brother."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Carstein

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2010, 02:43:03 PM »
And just for reference Martin did not kill Manfred by himself. The renegade vampire Jerek Krueger (who was once grand master of the Knights of the White Wolf) played a big part in helping to kill Manfred. He stopped him from fleeing, tore off the Cartstein ring and then Martin used his runefang to finish the job. So really Krueger played a bigger part.

Is that from some dodgy novel?

Mannfred never even had the Carstein ring as far as I remember. It was stolen from Vlad and then lost.
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Offline Johedl

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2010, 03:29:59 PM »
The novell and the "official" fluff seems to differ on this point.

Offline Michael W

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2010, 03:40:12 PM »
Yeah...and I'd disregard the Vampire Counts trilogy.  Poorly written, distant from the official fluff, and just generally *bleh*.  Makes the evil vampires into little more than one-dimensional "ooh, that's the next bad guy" characters and generally takes all the interest out of the story.  A one-legged peasant could have stolen Vlad's ring, vamps don't know their own dungeons, and that same peasant could have whacked Manfred.  Plus, the book clearly doesn't consider that whole issue about Manfred being back in the current storyline.  Quite a letdown, especially after reading Genevieve.
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2010, 04:56:04 PM »
As poor as the Vampire Counts Trilogy is for story, it the is the account GW writers have used in forming both the Hel Fenn chapter in Empire at War and the account of the Vampire Wars in the Liber Necris. Discount it if you like, but as GW has no official cannon it is, for the most part, the basis of the in depth version of the era's history.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2010, 05:00:15 PM »
They didn't use it for the actual army book though.

Quite often going into detail on these sorts of stories makes them less interesting rather than more.
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Offline Talben21

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2010, 06:31:51 PM »
And why does everyone care about Martin anyway? I mean the guy f'ed up and didn't find the body because he was to busy annexing Sylvania and trying to claim the title of Emperor. I guess those silly Stirlanders need something, however small, to hang their hates on ; )

But really the real hero was Grande Theogonist Wilhelm who killed Vlad during the Siege of Altdorf.

Also, anyone notice the quality of story telling has gone south for GW? I mean the Storm of Chaos story was just laughably bad.

Offline Michael W

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2010, 07:27:37 PM »
Eh, GW's writing is hit-and-miss.  Abnett writes great 40k and...iffy Fantasy.  Thorpe writes pretty good Fantasy (Claws of Chaos series was entertaining).  It's certainly not any worse than Star Wars' writing or comparable series.  I don't rush out to buy every book, but some reading every now and then is nice.

I will agree on Wilhelm - well, the Grand Theogonists in general.  Wilhelm III broke Vlad and Kurt III broke Mannfred.
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Offline S.O.F

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2010, 03:44:17 AM »
They didn't use it for the actual army book though.

Well adding such would disrupt the Copy and Paste job the 7th edition fluff was from the 5th Edition Book. Sure the added a few new sentences here and there providing us with such jems as.....

Quote
He then launched a counter-offensive that saw his army reach the walls of Averheim before an unlikely alliance of Stirland and Reikland relieved the beleaguered Wissenland capital.

In my personal assessment, Army Book and Black Library work are equally as bad in continuity. The novels only seem worse because they are often poorly written for fiction as well.

As for going into detail into Warhammer stories, looking for the minute bits to add to general Warhammer background is more often than not more my motivation for reading them than the story plot. Learning about the shanty town extension that houses migrant workers as a part of the city of Averheim in the book Sword of Justice was far more intriguing to me than the evil manipulative cultist woman plot that unfolded in the book.
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Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2010, 12:05:23 PM »
I like the original 4th edition undead army book fluff. There's really no need for anything else.
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Offline Uryens de Crux

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2010, 12:09:46 PM »
Well 4th ed was when they introduced the individual army books, and so I guess they spent a lot of effort on the fluff and backgrounds, everything since then has been pretty sloppy adjustements (when few, if any, were needed)
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Offline orcyboy

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2010, 04:47:06 PM »
There is no official GW fluff.


I like the original 4th edition undead army book fluff. There's really no need for anything else.

Is that the one that had Manfred riding into the battle of Hel Fenn on a chariot?

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2010, 04:54:31 PM »
Is that the one that had Manfred riding into the battle of Hel Fenn on a chariot?

So what? That was allowed then.
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Offline Johedl

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2010, 04:58:35 PM »
I found the old modell of Arkhams (?) chariot with four skeleton steeds that could fly not long ago. I should paint it, but I do not know what it should be used as. A unit fillers for black knights?

Offline rufus sparkfire

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2010, 05:01:57 PM »
Maybe as a black coach? Or a corpse cart?

Or even a vampire on an abyssal horror (or whatever its called - the thing that is supposed to be a necromantic construct).
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Offline Johedl

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2010, 05:07:09 PM »
I have a black coach and I like the modell so I am not going to change. The problem with Abyssal horror and corpscart (I allso like the cart's modell) are that they are not that wide, four steeds makes the modell pretty big. Perhaps I could remove two steeds and use it as a zombie dragon? I could make a hole in the chariot for a 20x20mm base and remove the Vampire when the beast dies. 

Offline Mogsam

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2010, 08:43:30 PM »
Wow that wikipedia article summed up those books...

Glad I didn't read them!
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Offline orcyboy

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2010, 09:41:29 PM »
Is that the one that had Manfred riding into the battle of Hel Fenn on a chariot?

So what? That was allowed then.

Hey its totally cool with me, I think you could use a necromancer as your general too which seems more appropriate then this Vampire only rout they’ve taken.

My point is I think I’ve read at least 4 different version of how the Battle of Hel Fin and the demise of Manfred went down.  My favorite is the ultra official super canon version where Manfred rode to battle on the Blue Lion he stole from Princess Allura. Just as he was about to crush Count Martin under his metal claws the SDF-1 fired its main cannon, vaporizing Manfred but inadvertently opening up a fold in the space time continuum that warped everybody into the Chaplains Assistant School's motor pool at Fort Wadsworth…. IIRC.

Offline Michael W

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2010, 10:05:15 PM »
Yeah, that probably was the best version, at least from the storyline perspective...the writing was pretty atrocious, though.
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Offline Erkenbrand

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Re: Count Martin of Stirland
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2010, 11:34:37 PM »
He never became Emperor, he and most of his army died during the wars in Ostermark.  :icon_cry: