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The Empire at War ... The Gamers Guild => WHFB The Electors' Forum => Empire 8th Army Book => Topic started by: kermitthefrog3 on March 04, 2009, 11:08:27 PM
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I think empire should have the option of a shock knight unit. Theyre knights are supposed to be famed for thier charges but our knights seem pretty flimsy unless seriously decked out.
I was thinking:
0-1 Inner Circle Knights - 31pts per model - Special
WS BS S T I A W LD
5 3 4 3 5 1 1 8
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This does nearly nothing to improve the impact of the knight unit. A bump to WS only increases the number of hits by 16%. The only way to significantly increase the hitting power is adding attacks.
And no, the imperial knight does very well. If you want a shocking cavalry unit, play brettonia. We do get the 1+ AS, which is awesome!
Phil
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Aye, the 1+ save is just fantastic. The number of times my friend who plays TK gets so irritated when his 2 units of Chariots just bound off my knights.... he crys alot.
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TK players have the right to be upset with their book. I admire long term TK players who kept at it (one at my club, he excels with them. Makes me go :icon_eek: at all the posts saying they're underpowered. Intellectually I know they are but...damn).
I think 'nilla Knights are great as is, Inner Circle aren't so hot, might want +1 attack but that's not something I really want, as it's more a response to the silly amount of units with multiple attacks nowadays.
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If you want more attacks, just add a WP to your IC knight unit and there you go. more attacks! :-D
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could have a rare choice of knight with more attacks or something, but really then it is starting to look a whole lot like brets.
Maybe just model 4(or more) knights on a chariot base and make them look badass and use them as your Stank.
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If you want more attacks, just add a WP to your IC knight unit and there you go. more attacks! :-D
QFT
Otherwise, kill the knights. They hit harder when (un)dead
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Warrior priests FTW!
I think I will make my great weapon inner circle soon, just to be a good sport about it.
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TK players have the right to be upset with their book. I admire long term TK players who kept at it (one at my club, he excels with them. Makes me go :icon_eek: at all the posts saying they're underpowered. Intellectually I know they are but...damn).
I think 'nilla Knights are great as is, Inner Circle aren't so hot, might want +1 attack but that's not something I really want, as it's more a response to the silly amount of units with multiple attacks nowadays.
These days it just so satisfying to pull off a draw with them against the more uber armies, not to mention challenging that they are still worth it. I adore my Tomb Kings
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Tomb Kings are sort of under powered compared to the new rules but when i play my 2250 list with tomb king on chariot in a unit of chariots that seems to make people sweat. . .
Normally i give him the crown of kings (two dice for incantations pick the highest) flail of skulls(each wound caused counts as two, s7 on first round of combat) then unleash him on any tough troops such as dwarfs.( my group of gamers and i had a campaign back in november which i won. nearly half the games i played were against dwarves and i still pullked out on top :icon_mrgreen:)
Our knights aren't there to break a unit unless you take a grand master with the laurels and either sword of power or something else to boost his kill rate. they are there to hold the enemy while that five man nilla squad breaks ranks and runs them down.
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We aren't seriously claiming that the TK are underpowered are we?
Seriously?
Phil
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We aren't seriously claiming that the TK are underpowered are we?
Seriously?
Phil
Only a little, they arent pathetically weak and generally the armies they fight will know they've been in a fight but they'll never be able to compete effectively against Deamons and VC took a lot of there tricks
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I know this may sound crazy but i don't think they are that under powered. . . sure i would love to see a points drop for skellies like they did for VC and maybe a mix up of the magic items that are now redundant due to the new rules but when I think about it, everyone "complains" about they're army not being good enough.
HEHEHE I remember stumbling onto a sight for Brettonians and they were moaning about how they're cavalry wasn't that great and how Empire get 1+ saves.
Their answer to our 1+ was to say our cav should move 6" a turn because of all that heavy armour. . .
I just couldn't stop laughing.
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You should see the VC forum complaining about how difficult it is to maintain their constant massacre wins.
Philly, I probably use the wrong word to describe them. They're an old book, their points are a bit off (too expensive) for the current day, and quite a few of the units are not too hot. Whilst not underpowered, they're not in the top half of armies.
Where I am it's a case of the old Dark Elves. They have a slightly subpar book, and so they work a helluva lot harder to get good results than other players. I remember the Delf player in our group was so good it was frightening. He would constantly win with grace and ease, and no, I haven't played him since he got the new book.
I'm too scared. :icon_cry:
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I think cavalry should count as having an extra rank per model. Think about it: they have a 25x50 base, instead of a 25x25, on that base there are two separate entities, so in effect it are two models on the same space as two models. So why not?
Further, the RB says that static CR by ranks is meant to represent the pressing of the men behind the first row. A horse (esp. an armored horse) with a man on top weighs much more than 2 men on foot. So in that respect, I think a guy on a horse deserve as counting as an extra rank!
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Isn't the idea of ranks meant to be the knowledge of a man behind you helping you out (keeping you on your feet in the bloody mud etc) and knowing your back isn't exposed?
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I think cavalry should count as having an extra rank per model. Think about it: they have a 25x50 base, instead of a 25x25, on that base there are two separate entities, so in effect it are two models on the same space as two models. So why not?
Further, the RB says that static CR by ranks is meant to represent the pressing of the men behind the first row. A horse (esp. an armored horse) with a man on top weighs much more than 2 men on foot. So in that respect, I think a guy on a horse deserve as counting as an extra rank!
But apply that rule to Chaos Knights, Saurus Cav, and Blood Knights, and what do you get? A horror show! :icon_eek: :-D
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I have two units of Chaos Knights.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Nice.
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10 chaos knights with Mark of Slaanesh are just plain nasty. Khorne I can handle because of the Frenzy but no matter how much firepower I through into them they won't run so it's either all or nothing!
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One of my units of 5 is painted undivided, other is painted Khorne (Was testing out the new washes and the foundation paints for the first time, loved the result).
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One of my units of 5 is painted undivided, other is painted Khorne (Was testing out the new washes and the foundation paints for the first time, loved the result).
Have you posted them up?
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Nope. Was afraid of being burnt alive and stuff. :engel:
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C'mon we have the steam tank and artillery, you want something that has higher impact then those?
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Yes.
Next question?
:biggriin:
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Take Ironguts then.
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They are a very nice unit, Ironguts. But the 5+ armour save is a bit crap. That and WS3 means they'll hit a lot less. Except against undead, then Ironguts become really awesome.
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Nope. Was afraid of being burnt alive and stuff. :engel:
As McKnight will probably tell you, the Inquisition's dead. Of course I disagree. They're just homeless... :engel:
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Nope. Was afraid of being burnt alive and stuff. :engel:
As McKnight will probably tell you, the Inquisition's dead. Of course I disagree. They're just homeless... :engel:
Ah, but where shall I post the images? I have so many random armies of so many systems. Counts Tavern, or just use my currently dead Brush and Palette thread?
(btw Folken, I was kidding when I said yes :biggriin:)
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Everything not empire is counts' tavern....
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Nope. Was afraid of being burnt alive and stuff. :engel:
Even if they were horribly bad I wouldn't burn, I love seeing other peoples paintjobs..
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I meant for being a heretic :icon_biggrin:
Edit: and as that's the case, I'll send you a PM (you love PMing, I know) with some images of them in a few minutes.
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Nope. Was afraid of being burnt alive and stuff. :engel:
Even if they were horribly bad I wouldn't burn, I love seeing other peoples paintjobs..
Danny, this post shows you're still a newbie after all (no offense) ::heretic::(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/weaspearl.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/sothsleep.gif)(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/weaburn.gif)
We was talking proper burning, boy... Bring the marshmallows..
(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f399/DLShadowwolf/Smileys/witchhunt.gif)
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Someone needed a proper burning? :ph34r:
This wandering Sigmarite priest is always around to supply rough and ready Sigmarite justice via hammer and burning. No need for fuzzywuzzy interogations and such...
So, who shall I put on the holy pyre?
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Knights having bigger rank bonuses is a bit silly, since they already get higher unit strength to represent their steed combined with them.
I don't think our knights need any tweaking at the moment; we've already got them as a core choice, relatively inexpensive, AND the option to bring magic banners into battle with them (I'm considering taking the Daemonslayer banner against horde opponents where leadership is wanting). There's not much need to improve them, and taking a mounted WP makes for plenty of attacks.
Honestly, I'm pretty happy with empire overall, to be honest. I think we're definately one of the most balanced armies out there. I'd like to see a little tweaking on engineers to make them a seriously viable option, and maybe mortars as indirect fire. Beyond that, not many complaints rules wise.
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Empire Knights are not the problem here, rather it's peoples' expectations of them.
They are not supposed to be Knights in the King Arthur and Brettonian sense of the word, they are solid, rather than spectacular, but if you use them in multiple units then they do work well in my experience.
I, therefore, see no need for any kind of 'shock' unit of Knights, they are powerful enough as they are in my view.
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I just realised, we kind of have a "shock" unit already.
The engineer on a robohorse.
He *does* discharge lightning on impact, right ?
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The engineer on a robohorse.
Fielding him would certainly be a shock to the enemy. :engel:
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That's a terrible pun warhammerlord_soth :icon_wink:.
Of course it reminds me very much of the incident between James Bond, a villain, a bath filled with water and an electric fan in 'Goldfinger'. To quote Sean Connery 'shocking' :biggriin:
As for the Engineer constituting 'shock cavalry', he only does so in the sense at a player who wasn't aware of his stats would probably collapse in fits of laughter and hysterics on the floor on discovering how shockingly poor this model is, not only in terms of ability, but also in terms of plausibility.
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You know, he actually isn't that bad with a repaeter pistol. He can do some decent damage in the right unit of fast cavalry or knights.
Or just stick him in a cannon unit. He comes blowing out to charge artillary hunters and laughs!
Phil