home

Author Topic: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm  (Read 1078 times)

Offline Voltan Ignatio

  • Members
  • Posts: 115
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2024, 12:41:48 AM »
Apologies if I missed it in the thread, but Dragonbow? Its cheap(ish) to add as an extrs to your list and S6 AP-2 D2

Offline Clymer

  • Members
  • Posts: 490
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2024, 03:39:11 AM »
Oh yes, thanks. I meant to put that in, but I think I missed it.
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline sedobren

  • Members
  • Posts: 112
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2024, 06:55:17 AM »
Illusion Wizard + Ogre Blade is still an option. But now you are wounding on 5+ rather than 2+, and reduced AP. I would not charge a full wound dragon that has a 2+/5+/5++ (which HE's can still take).

I did the math for the mace and the spell+mage attack inflicted around 9 wounds on average. The fallback would be the dragon slaying sword. With 8 hits on average (7 from the spell, 1 from the wizard hitting on 4+ with his 2 attacks) you should cause 1.333 monster slaying wounds. If the monster has a ward save (no armor or regens are allowed by the monster slayer wound), it's 0.888 unsaved wounds with a 5+ ward save - in other words slightly less than one dead monster.

It's not bad, the issue is that it only works for that. The mace was good vs dragons (9 unsaved wounds equal one dead dragon, I don't think there are 10 wounds dragons), had the nuance to be able to win combat even if the dragon was not dead outright, and was very useful vs other units. I'd say it was even better vs multi wound monstrous infantry snd cavalry. With the DS sword it's a one trick pony (well, griffin).

Offline Dazgrim

  • Members
  • Posts: 938
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2024, 04:33:21 AM »
Illusion Wizard + Ogre Blade is still an option. But now you are wounding on 5+ rather than 2+, and reduced AP. I would not charge a full wound dragon that has a 2+/5+/5++ (which HE's can still take).

At that point you might as well save 15 points and take the  Dragon Slayer Sword hoping for a 6 to wound. That puts the dragon on a 5++ only.

With 2d6 hits it's not unlikely, but the build doesn't have as much utility against non monsters.
Don't hug me I'm British, we only show affection to dogs and horses.

Grenzstadt stands.

Offline Rodman49

  • Members
  • Posts: 364
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2024, 05:39:39 AM »
Apologies if I missed it in the thread, but Dragonbow? Its cheap(ish) to add as an extrs to your list and S6 AP-2 D2

I often think of taking a Captain with a Dragon bow as opposed to a lvl 2 wizard for a little more shooting power.  If he kills 3-4 models in a game he's done his job and can deal with enemy chaff like Great Eagles.  The fact he can threaten the big chungi is a great bonus.

Offline Grendel083

  • Members
  • Posts: 74
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2024, 09:02:27 AM »
Apologies if I missed it in the thread, but Dragonbow? Its cheap(ish) to add as an extrs to your list and S6 AP-2 D2

I often think of taking a Captain with a Dragon bow as opposed to a lvl 2 wizard for a little more shooting power.  If he kills 3-4 models in a game he's done his job and can deal with enemy chaff like Great Eagles.  The fact he can threaten the big chungi is a great bonus.

I'm sure the Dragon Bow used to be 3 shots back in the day. 1 shot seems a bit weak for the price.

Offline commandant

  • Members
  • Posts: 8175
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2024, 11:53:16 AM »
Depends.   The dragon bow could easily take out a demigrffion or such.   They cost twice as much as it.

Offline Clymer

  • Members
  • Posts: 490
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2024, 02:13:19 PM »
Whelp, I finally faced an ethereal dragon last night, and at 1000 points. I knew my list was outclassed, but my buddy really wanted to try out his dragon in a low-stakes game and I was curious to see what it could do.

I did not re-tool my list at all from my standard 1000 point escalation league army, so my only potentially anti-ethereal dragon unit was my level 4 who was set up as a magic missile artillery base (Pegasus, Ruby Ring, Arcane Familiar, so he had The Summoning, Doombolt, and Fireball)

How did it go? I can't remember all the details, but at some point one of my magic missiles did a single wound to the dragon, which is the same number of wounds he took from miscasts, so, I'm going to say, not super effective.

So what did I do? I actually ended up just ignoring the dragon. With a game full of horrible luck on my part, I barely cast any spells and did not dispel a single one of his spells for the whole game. I managed to pull out a draw. I think three factors helped me get to the draw:
- He did not want to charge my swordsmen (18 Veterans w/Griffon Banner and Shields, lead by a Demigryph BSB with the Warbanner). He was afraid that he would not be able to overcome my static resolution, even if he was ethereal.
- I was able to use my knights and demis to prevent a combo-charge from his dragon and his silverhelms
- One of my two actually helpful spells from the battle: Phantasmagoria. He was too nervous about panic, so he did not move his dragon in a turn where it would have set up a good breath weapon use and a good charge in a future turn.

The game did end after 4 turns, and I think if we had gone the full six turns he would have swung it to a minor victory by picking off my knights and my warhorse captain, whereas I was set up to still pick up an RBT and probably a unit of Shadow Warriors, so it would have been close. Far from being tabled.

So, my takeaways are:

- Dragons are vulnerable to static combat res.
- Dragon players have difficult choices about whether to use magic and breath weapons or charge into combat and lose that and their dispel abilities. They aren't as obvious cookie cutters as I had thought from reading the interwebs.
- Conversely, just holding an Archmage Dragon in combat can be very useful, even if you're not killing it. That makes the following useful for mitigating the dragon, even if you're not going to kill it:
1. Sticky Troops: Whether stubborn, high static combat res, unbreakable, lots of wounds, or just very tough, some combination of these can discourage a dragon charge and movement, even if you're not going to kill it.
2. Steam Tank: For all the reasons as sticky troops above, plus a little more manueverable so maybe it would be easier to get into contact with the dragon.
3. Tanky Griffon General: I'm thinking Full Plate & Shield, The White Cloak, Healing Potion, and Giant Blade. Possibly swap out the Giant Blade for a second healing potion. He doesn't have to win, he just has to use his 323 points to keep a 500+ point dragon out of the game. He's also pretty versatile for games where an ethereal dragon doesn't happen to make an appearance.
4. Finally, and maybe most importantly, just tool up to deal with the rest of his army. Outside of the Dragon, elves are still squishy. Through those soft, wispy frames is a path to victory.
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Clymer

  • Members
  • Posts: 490
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2024, 02:32:39 PM »
Oh, and I might move the previously mentioned dispel scroll + cannons up the list. If "normal" stuff in an army can help contain a dragon, then a turn or two of cannon shooting should really make him less aggressive.
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Kippers

  • Members
  • Posts: 67
  • The White Wolf wants YOU!
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2024, 05:00:43 PM »
Nice to hear that you had some ok results during your encounter with a dragon.

I was considering a combo with spectral doppelganger and dragon slaying sword now that it has been clarified that the mace of Helstrom doesn’t work with spectral doppelganger. Sure, it’s a bit of a one-trick pony, but it should be effective against dragons. And if you top it up with a potion of speed, you might just get to hit first 😄
Many an ancient lord' s last words had been, "You can' t kill me because I' ve got magic aaargh."

Magic armour is not all it' s cracked up to be. (Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times)

Offline The Peacemaker

  • Members
  • Posts: 2312
  • Baron Karl von Balombine of Wissenland
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2024, 05:35:48 PM »
Wjy did he not combo charge your veteran block with Silverhelms and the Dragon and use the champion to take the challenge?

Veteran block only gets 7 combat res(3 from ranks with griffin banner, close order, banner, bsb, warbanner).

Combo charge gets: 3+ kills.
Close order 2(dragon and silver helms), banner(silver helms.
If able to combo charge with other units with +1 combat res then its better.
....of course this is assuming he took a silver helms unit plus other units, and thar your units are not in the way.
For Wissenland and the Countess!!!

My Painting Blog
My Entire Gallery

Offline sedobren

  • Members
  • Posts: 112
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2024, 06:53:27 PM »
Combat resolution is a problem for a non fighter dragon rider, like an archmage, he should have taken some lore with a good assilment, like the battle magic signature one (2d6 f4 ap-1). He would have wasted the unit in that case.

Obviously challenges exist for that reason i guess, even a stupid small supporting unit would have helped him.


Offline nub5

  • Members
  • Posts: 541
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2024, 03:59:45 AM »
Ugh, there was a youtube interview I saw with an empire player (who is a member of this board) I'm so sorry I forgot the name.  He talked about running a general (or you could do captain) mounted with the dragon bow as a supplement to doing a couple wounds to large monsters and general harassment.  The general was chosen over the captain for the extra wound.  I think it was something like this (again apologize if I mangled it).

General of the Empire [149 pts]
- Hand weapon
- Full plate armour
- Shield
- Brace of pistols
- Barded Warhorse
- Dragon Bow
Empire,  HUA!   :biggriin:
And the dice like non-proxied, painted minis. :icon_mrgreen: :icon_lol:

Offline Clymer

  • Members
  • Posts: 490
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2024, 07:29:08 PM »
Wjy did he not combo charge your veteran block with Silverhelms and the Dragon and use the champion to take the challenge?

Um, 'cause I'm too good a player to let him pull that shit off?  :::cheers:::

Really though, we were on a long table and the way we deployed and the way terrain was, when he moved his silverhelms up it created a flanking charge for my demigryphs, so that's what happened to that plan.
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.

Offline Clymer

  • Members
  • Posts: 490
Re: Slaying Ethereal Dragons - A Brainstorm
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2024, 07:53:06 PM »
Veteran block only gets 7 combat res(3 from ranks with griffin banner, close order, banner, bsb, warbanner).

My group plays that the Griffon Banner grant's +2 per rank. For most rules questions we take things at face value, or what seems reasonable/benefit of the doubt worthy, compared to how other items or rules work at similar point costs. Not saying we don't split a few hairs, but overall it's a lot less contentious than a lot of web threads.

Anyway, that ends up being +4 for ranks, +1 for banner, +1 for Close Order, +1 for BSB, and +1 for Warbanner, hence, plus 8. Hence, that dragon gonna lose by 2.
Note: The above post was intended for entertainment purposes only and may contain views not necessarily held by its author. Any similarity to actual facts is purely coincidental.