Topic: I Took State Troops to 2 Tournaments

[Mordian Glory]

Hello there fellow Empire Generals!

I come to you fresh from the competitive scene with surprising news, State Troops are quite good! I know many of you will be skeptical but please let me share with you my experience.

With the release of Old World I have got back into my Empire in a big way, with the main focus of my Army being on State Troops. I did this not because I thought it would be competitive, but because I thought the Empires line infantry was cool. By the time I read online that they were meant to be quite bad I had already painted 100 of them, so I thought screw it I will just take them see how they do.

I signed up to 2 events, the first was 1250pts and the second was 2000pts. Both were 1 day, 3 round tournaments. Each was at a different venues with the first having 70ish players and the 2nd having 20ish players

Here are the lists that I took:
List 1 1250pts
Empire General, on foot, Duelists Blades, White Cloak, Full Plate
Empire Captain, on foot, BSB, Enchanted Shield, Full Plate
Wizard, Level 2, Elementalism (No lore familiar, I rolled random every time because I like to live dangerously)
24 State Troops, Halberds, Full Command, 8x3
24 State Troops, Halberds, Full Command, 8x3
22 State Troops, Spears and Shields, Full Command (General and Cpt went here), 6x4
Great Cannon
Steam Tank

List 2 2000pts
Empire General, on foot, Halberd, White Cloak, Full Plate
Empire Captain, on foot, BSB, Halberd, Talisman of Protection, Full Plate
Wizard, Level 4, Elementalism (No lore familiar)
Engineer
Engineer
24 State Troops, Halberds, Full Command, 8x3
24 State Troops, Halberds, Full Command, 8x3
28 State Troops, Spears and Shields, Full Command (General and Cpt went here), 6x5
30 State Troops, Spears and Shields, Full Command (General and Cpt went here), 6x5
Great Cannon
Great Cannon
Mortar
Hellblaster Volley Gun
Steam Tank

At the 1250pts event I played in to O&G game 1 and lost, but that was because I made some really stupid mistakes, such as putting the steam tank opposite a gobbo mage with the itchy spell when I could have put it on the other flank and dominated. Game 2 I played into Tomb Kings and tabled them and in Game 3 I played Warrriors of Chaos and tabled them too.

At the 2000pts event I played into Empire round 1. He had all knights and demigryphs, with some big stuff like a Steam Tank and a griffon general. This game I got a major victory, with the knights getting ground down by my big state troop blocks over several rounds of combat. In game 2 I played dwarfs and it was a stone cold draw. Game 3 I played into beastmen and I lost, but I played the game way too passively and I should have won it. But in the final turn I had been very lazy with 2 of my characters and my opponent was able to snipe them with some clever movement, leading to a 300pts swing in the final turn.

Over the course of playing these games I noticed some trends with my State Troops
1) Spearmen with a 5+ save and a 5+ ward from Earthen Ramparts were very durable and could take a charge from anything.
2) Spearmen struggle to do damage against anything more then T3.
3) Halberds are quite cheap and are quite choppy. They actually won a fair few combats and were able to punch up against more elite units.
4) With a Ld9 General and a BSB, my dudes would not break. They FBIGO a lot, but did not flee once.
5) Attrition! My big blocks often out lasted the enemy. They may not have won the first 2-3 rounds of combat, but they ground the enemy down and won the last round.

But the most interesting thing I observed about the State Troops was how different some combats felt. Into hordes of goblins and skeletons I was able to bully them, but never felt too outnumbered. Into special units like Hammerers I felt out classed, but had the numbers to pull through in the long term. Overall the army felt really resilient and the State Troops were really good at holding the line, with every opponent underestimating them!

[Clymer]

Thanks for sharing your experience!

I’m not surprised at all. This is about what I would expect from Empire: definitely able to win games, especially if played well, but not going to be super dominant the way some armies can be. I haven’t played a tournament yet in TOW, but I’ve been doing an escalation league and some other games against opponents that run the range from “just for fun” to very experienced and competitive. My list so far has always been one or two blocks of state troops, a single unit of knights, a single unit of Demigryphs, some artillery, maybe a steam tank, maybe a gryphon, and sometimes Greatswords. My current record is 10 wins, 1 draw, 2 losses. Most of my wins I’ve completely tabled my opponent. My two losses were regular defeats, not major defeats.

I can see the math on (virtual) paper where state troops and other units seem like poor choices. But in real life, it’s played out very differently. In truth, I’ve often played much more cautiously than I needed to because I was expecting to be so outclassed. But, again, it’s all gone much better than expected.

[PowerSeries]

Do you think some detachments would have helped?

[commandant]

That is also my question. I would have broken down one of those combat blocks into detachments for the other ones.   Though in that instance the board might get very crowded.

[Dazgrim]

Congratulations

[Athiuen]

My own tournament experience has made me believe that infantry have their place, but probably buffed by a priest and a wizard embedded in the unit, or supported by hard hitting demigryphs or knights. I watched a fair bit of your Youtube video (I assume you're the same guy), and appreciated the reflections on the event.

[sedobren]

Thanks for the report! As i play more games i start to see how combat resolution is really king, and a big unit of say 28 spearmen with the right support (bsb, war banner, griffon banner etc) could theoretically even outlast a dragon.

I personally don't think that empire state troops are terrible, they are just very generic, having nothing (or often having less) on similar standard infantry like HE spearmen, Men at arms, boys etc. The griffon banner is cool, but it's just the one. I need to test out halberdiers. What is you opinion of veteran state troops? with veteran and potentially drilled, they look interesting but they become very, very pricey.

[GamesPoet]

Good to read, and congrats!

All the boo hoo hooing about Empire ... Empire for the win!

[Skyros]

Hey Mordian, thanks for the tournament update! It's useful to get as much actual experience at a high level of play as possible. I've been enjoying your foray into TOW empire on your YT channel.

[The Peacemaker]

Key thing to note about his list:
He runs the halberds 8 wide. And the rest of the list is artillery.
 
Although I do wonder if Brets Exhiles list would work better. You don't get the steam tank though...
What advantage does this list have over the brets besides the steamtank?

Just a note: it is nice to see some varied lists be viable.

[commandant]

Would you consider that Battle Magics 5+ ward is better than Earthern Ramparts because you can charge with it?

[Minsc]

Although I do wonder if Brets Exhiles list would work better. You don't get the steam tank though...
What advantage does this list have over the brets besides the steamtank?

In addition to the Stank? Engineers, lvl 4 instead of lvl 3 and a Helblaster.

Can you make a similar list with Exiles/Border Princes that is about as good or better? Probably.
Just switching all those State Troops into Yeoman Guard with identical equipment would save you a hefty 164(!) pts @2000 pts.

[Mordian Glory]

Do you think some detachments would have helped?

I have tried small detachments of 10, both missile and melee troops, and I have found they are really bad. Enemies just go for the detachment and blow through your lines. I think detachments could work, but basically they would need to be the same size as the parent unit to avoid making weak points in the line.

Congratulations

Thank you!

My own tournament experience has made me believe that infantry have their place, but probably buffed by a priest and a wizard embedded in the unit, or supported by hard hitting demigryphs or knights. I watched a fair bit of your Youtube video (I assume you're the same guy), and appreciated the reflections on the event.

Yep, I am the same guy from YouTube

And I have not tried using priests and other buffing units yet. I think they could work, but I am worried they are too unreliable with either failing the Ld test or the enemy stopping a spell. For now I have gone with making units cheap and large but it does have its limits.

Thanks for the report! As i play more games i start to see how combat resolution is really king, and a big unit of say 28 spearmen with the right support (bsb, war banner, griffon banner etc) could theoretically even outlast a dragon.

I personally don't think that empire state troops are terrible, they are just very generic, having nothing (or often having less) on similar standard infantry like HE spearmen, Men at arms, boys etc. The griffon banner is cool, but it's just the one. I need to test out halberdiers. What is you opinion of veteran state troops? with veteran and potentially drilled, they look interesting but they become very, very pricey.

Leaning really into combat res is something I am looking into next, part of trying to evolve and improve the Mass State Troops tactics. 

As for Veteran State troops, I have not tried them yet but I would take them as Halberdiers and thats it. If you go spears, shields and drilled you are getting close to Greatsword prices and honestly I would rather take the Greatswords. As just upgraded Halberds, they are not too expensive and the WS4 helps make them both a little more durable against those enemy units which are more elite then them, and makes them more punchy into their peer WS3 units in other armies. 

Good to read, and congrats!
Thank you!

All the boo hoo hooing about Empire ... Empire for the win!

Thank you! Overall I think Empire play better on the table then they look on paper

Would you consider that Battle Magics 5+ ward is better than Earthern Ramparts because you can charge with it?

On State Troops I find that I pretty always get charged, so the Earthen Ramparts were much better as I could put on a unit without having the risk of having my Wizard on the front line. But you could take both and have 2 units of very durable spearmen!

[Warlord]

Do you think some detachments would have helped?

I have tried small detachments of 10, both missile and melee troops, and I have found they are really bad. Enemies just go for the detachment and blow through your lines. I think detachments could work, but basically they would need to be the same size as the parent unit to avoid making weak points in the line.

Yes. Exactly what we have been saying about them this edition.
The cost is too large, the base size is too large, and you are just better off taking something else for the points.

I notice however that you have not taken any cavalry in your list.... why?

[Minsc]

Do you think some detachments would have helped?

I have tried small detachments of 10, both missile and melee troops, and I have found they are really bad. Enemies just go for the detachment and blow through your lines. I think detachments could work, but basically they would need to be the same size as the parent unit to avoid making weak points in the line.

This is my take on detachments as well. They are a liability more often than not.
Enemy simply goes for them, punches trough them and can even get a free pursuit or restrain-reform in the middle of your battleline - without even thanking you for it.

Small Missile Detachments or a decently sized melee detachments for Greatswords (to make them Stubborn) can work, but melee detachments for state troops just feels like a trap.

Edit: And now when they require US5+ to give +1CR for Close Order post-patch, they're even worse.

[Skyros]

Do you think some detachments would have helped?

I have tried small detachments of 10, both missile and melee troops, and I have found they are really bad. Enemies just go for the detachment and blow through your lines. I think detachments could work, but basically they would need to be the same size as the parent unit to avoid making weak points in the line.

This has been my experience as well.

Detachments make your opponents weak BS shooting actually valuable.
If you don't have detachments, you really don't care if your opponent is running around with a couple weak BS units as they have no good targets. Your knights can shrug off the damage. Losing 4 of your 30 halberdiers in a block is nothing.

But if you have detachments, suddenly all that weak BS shooting on the enemy team has a nice fat juicy high priority target.

And of course, a single magic missile is usually enough to wreck a detachment, either by reducing below US5, or sending fleeing for the hills.

[nub5]

List 2 2000pts
Empire General, on foot, Halberd, White Cloak, Full Plate
Empire Captain, on foot, BSB, Halberd, Talisman of Protection, Full Plate
Wizard, Level 4, Elementalism (No lore familiar)
Engineer x2
24 State Troops, Halberds, Full Command, 8x3, x2
28 State Troops, Spears and Shields, Full Command (General and Cpt went here), 6x5
30 State Troops, Spears and Shields, Full Command (General and Cpt went here), 6x5
Great Cannon x2
Mortar
Hellblaster Volley Gun
Steam Tank

Do you think adding a barded warhorse to your BSB and General (2+ Save) would be worth the points investment?

I too trying to find a place for detachments.  I'm not happy that they cause panaic now (and empire has to pay for a Captian/General to ignore it) which is pretty bad since they small unit and it easy to panic them.  I've been toying with two types
   a) 3x3 with shield to disrupt and try to stay alive
   b) 5x2 with halberds to kill things on the counter charge.

What been happening in my games is I haven't' been able to use them to couter charge as my opponents will try to charge the detachment.  So I been using them to setup charges for my regiment.

I'm about to just give up on State Missile troops.  BS3 shooting seems very wasteful across the board.  My shooting has either been the hellbalster or 4 man unit of outriders.

[Minsc]

List 2 2000pts
Empire General, on foot, Halberd, White Cloak, Full Plate
Empire Captain, on foot, BSB, Halberd, Talisman of Protection, Full Plate
Wizard, Level 4, Elementalism (No lore familiar)
Engineer x2
24 State Troops, Halberds, Full Command, 8x3, x2
28 State Troops, Spears and Shields, Full Command (General and Cpt went here), 6x5
30 State Troops, Spears and Shields, Full Command (General and Cpt went here), 6x5
Great Cannon x2
Mortar
Hellblaster Volley Gun
Steam Tank

Do you think adding a barded warhorse to your BSB and General (2+ Save) would be worth the points investment?

I know I'm not the one you're asking but I'm gonna give my thoughs anyway:
Barded Warhorses having a 30x30base means the characters would have to be placed awkwardly on the side of the unit.

Personally I'd either leave them on foot, or find the points to put them on Demigryphs instead;
- 50x75 bases allows them to be placed "inside" the unit instead of to the side of it.
- 50x75 fills up 5 extra "spaces" in the unit, allowing it to maintain ranks longer.
- Actual punch from the DG with its 3 S5 AP2 attacks instead of just 1 S3 AP- attack from the horse.
- Gives the character +1W, which is especially useful on a Captain BSB.

And going from a BWH to a DG is "only" 34 pts more expensive.

[nub5]

I know I'm not the one you're asking but I'm gonna give my thoughs anyway:
Barded Warhorses having a 30x30base means the characters would have to be placed awkwardly on the side of the unit.

Minsc,
I originally started the idea of using a DG for all the awesome reason you presented but I found that monstrous infantry/cavalry have the "Clumsy" special rule meaning they can only be put in units that also have the "Clumsy" rule (basically Monstrous Inf/Cav).  This did break my imperial heart, so I had to go with the barded warhorse.  AS seem to be more effective this edition so the +1 is looking like a nice defense buff for 16.

Regarding placement, new armies it may be an issue (though you could make or 3D print something).  I myself am just using conversion trays to do this, so my calvary will fit nice with my 20mm solders.

[Minsc]

I know I'm not the one you're asking but I'm gonna give my thoughs anyway:
Barded Warhorses having a 30x30base means the characters would have to be placed awkwardly on the side of the unit.

Minsc,
I originally started the idea of using a DG for all the awesome reason you presented but I found that monstrous infantry/cavalry have the "Clumsy" special rule meaning they can only be put in units that also have the "Clumsy" rule (basically Monstrous Inf/Cav).  This did break my imperial heart, so I had to go with the barded warhorse.  AS seem to be more effective this edition so the +1 is looking like a nice defense buff for 16.

Well then I got good news for you.
Like many of us (including myself) you've read the Clumsy-rule wrong, which is understandable.

The Clumsy-rule doesn't prevent Clumsy from joining non-Clumsy - it prevents non-Clumsy from joining Clumsy.
So a Captain on a Demigryph (Clumsy) can join a unit of State Troops (non-Clumsy) just fine, but a Captain on a Warhorse (non-clumsy) cannot join a unit of Demigryphs (Clumsy).

The exact wording on Pg. 191 is: "A unit with this rule can only be joined by a character that also has this rule. Smaller characters are unwilling to risk being trampled."

So basically, from an Empire PoV, a unit of Demigryphs(Clumsy) can only be joined by a character that is also on a Demigryph(Clumsy).
The rule does not prevent a unit of State Troops (Non-Clumsy) from being joined by a character on Demigryph(Clumsy).

[sedobren]

The demigryph captain fundamentally works like the Bretonnian grail pilgrim reliquiary. i hope they don't take this away from us.

[Warlord]

I hope they don't take this away from us.

Same. I am thankful most of the attention last FAQ was on the Spectral Doppleganger and Mace combo.
I don’t think its game breaking.