Topic: Interesting magic items combinations with the new Renegade Crowns list!

[sedobren]

So I'm delving into the many option this lost affords, in particular the idra of mixing both the empire's and bretonnia's magic items!

So Renegades can have access to some of bretonnia's pretty good banners in particular the errantry one seems interesting as it can be put on infantry here (a captain with the bretonnian heritage upgrade!), obviously also the pricey but decent one that makes you roll 3d6 and pick higher for break tests, the gromril great helm as an alternative to the common item one, obviously the various cheap empire items like the witch hunter's ward, rhe demonic book, the wand for +1 to casting magic missiles, the twice blessed armour, ring of taal (basically all of the usual items we put in the lists!). I never though any of it with the empire, but for an army with no monsters, i wonder if combining the bedazzling helm and slayer's hourglass (both fit with helm, talisman and hourglass at 100p pts) basically means seriously hindering monsters as you give them a -1 to ws and -1 to hit. if you add an illusion mage it becomes -1 to wound and -2 to hit, which with veterans might mean being hit only on 6s and 5s by the rider (as many monsters have a ws of 5 or less). Obviously we have access to the falchorn of froemund (although with a max ld of 8 it could have been better) to the gilded cuirass for regeneration - and with a shield here is no difference between a heavy armour and full plate in melee. The gauntlet of the duel could be pretty neat to save a unit from a mean melee character. Also a prince with the bretonnian heritage and a heartwood lance hits with S8 ap-3 on the charge! S9 if you have the errantry banner, s 10 (and ap-4) if you throw in a demonology wizard as well, that's almost a cannon shot.

Did you find other interesting things?

[OMoran]

Well, just the usual ones. Worth pointing out:

Falcon Horn is a must have, since we cannot fly, it is the only way to pin down those pesky balloons one turn and charge them. Also works on gyrocopters. Yes, Renegade crowns have low leadership. Or do they? Characters have warband, that means their discipline actually increase with rank bonus. More, the knight origin also adds Veteran rule, to reroll that test. A simple captain can easily get to Ld 10 rerollable test to use the falcon horn.

As you pointed out the Errantry banner is crazy good too. And I want to remember: this is not cavalry only. Yes, bretonnians put it on cavalry. But Renegades can use it on veteran sellswords with great weapons (or halberds) and it also works when they are pursuing after a FBIGO. Veteran also mitigates the effects of impetuous, with a rerollable Ld10 test. And it can be carried by the same captain with the falcon horn. Renegade knight on foot with Full plate, shield, great weapon, falcon horn and errantry banner. 167 points.

Still talking Bretonnia, sword of the quest and talisman of protection is 100 points exactly. Good for a Renegade lord on warhorse. Yes, only 3 attacks, so it isn't really a banger, but S7 Multiple wounds (2). And WS 7 means you hit WS 3 on 2+. Great against Chaos spawns, giants, ballons etc. Or you can just use a charmed shield and the ogre blade for multiple wounds (D3), still S7, add a couple gauntlets of the duel to make sure enemy characters don't escape your multiple wounds.

Twin tailed wand paired with Wizard's staff, Demonology lvl 1 mage on horse, in the outriders with reserve move. That's crazy good. You start hidden, then move 8", cast twice the summoning (with a +2 bonus, even at level 1, or you can upgrade to level 3 for a +3 bonus, 60 points tho), then go back to hide with reserve move. Not even Wood Elves can do this trick.

Empire also has a great BSB, Griffon banner, Twice blessed armor, shield, great weapon and ring of taal. Adding a 5+ ward save to a 3+ armor save infantry? Yes please. Casting hammerhand will also give the unis a bit of punch, which is honestly lacking when you aren't using greatswords.

[sedobren]

Well, just the usual ones. Worth pointing out:

Falcon Horn is a must have, since we cannot fly, it is the only way to pin down those pesky balloons one turn and charge them. Also works on gyrocopters. Yes, Renegade crowns have low leadership. Or do they? Characters have warband, that means their discipline actually increase with rank bonus. More, the knight origin also adds Veteran rule, to reroll that test. A simple captain can easily get to Ld 10 rerollable test to use the falcon horn.

As you pointed out the Errantry banner is crazy good too. And I want to remember: this is not cavalry only. Yes, bretonnians put it on cavalry. But Renegades can use it on veteran sellswords with great weapons (or halberds) and it also works when they are pursuing after a FBIGO. Veteran also mitigates the effects of impetuous, with a rerollable Ld10 test. And it can be carried by the same captain with the falcon horn. Renegade knight on foot with Full plate, shield, great weapon, falcon horn and errantry banner. 167 points.

Still talking Bretonnia, sword of the quest and talisman of protection is 100 points exactly. Good for a Renegade lord on warhorse. Yes, only 3 attacks, so it isn't really a banger, but S7 Multiple wounds (2). And WS 7 means you hit WS 3 on 2+. Great against Chaos spawns, giants, ballons etc. Or you can just use a charmed shield and the ogre blade for multiple wounds (D3), still S7.

Twin tailed wand paired with Wizard's staff, Demonology lvl 1 mage on horse, in the outriders with reserve move. That's crazy good. You start hidden, then move 8", cast twice the summoning (with a +2 bonus, even at level 1, or you can upgrade to level 3 for a +3 bonus, 60 points tho), then go back to hide with reserve move. Not even Wood Elves can do this trick.

Empire also has a great BSB, Griffon banner, Twice blessed armor, shield, great weapon and ring of taal. Adding a 5+ ward save to a 3+ armor save infantry? Yes please. Casting hammerhand will also give the unis a bit of punch, which is honestly lacking when you aren't using greatswords.

mind that you cannot use warband for impetuous, so you would be using the captain's leadership (7) with rerolls - which is pretty good, better than ld8!. Now the falchorn says the model's unmodified leadership so i dont' know whether you would be able to use it with warband, in any case you can reroll there as well so still pretty decent!

[Athiuen]

More, the knight origin also adds Veteran rule, to reroll that test.

Don't Renegade Princes/Captains come with veteran base?

As you pointed out the Errantry banner is crazy good too.

It's an interesting idea, but probably not as good as the Griffon Banner since you can only get 1 Empire/Bret Banner.

Twin tailed wand paired with Wizard's staff, Demonology lvl 1 mage on horse, in the outriders with reserve move. That's crazy good. You start hidden, then move 8", cast twice the summoning (with a +2 bonus, even at level 1, or you can upgrade to level 3 for a +3 bonus, 60 points tho), then go back to hide with reserve move.

Also, you can give them a repeater pistol, which is not bad since they're BS 4.

[Edwin von Dufflecoat]

Given only the bsb gets access to either the Bret banners or the Empire banners but not both , and anyone else must make do with a common banner...I suspect everyone will just stick with griffon banner.

[sedobren]

Yes the bretonnian upgrade has veteran which is useless on the captain/prince but usable for the outcast wizard.

It's actually not that bad on a outcast wizard if you want to build a spectral doplleganger wizard: he gets S4 - better than any other human wizard and on par with most human commanders - so combining it with the decent bretonnian magic weapon you can for example use the heartwood lance for S7 attacks with the spell. Unfortunately not enough pts for a lore familiar, although the generic killing blow axe does leav enough room for it!

The bretonnian upgrade also gives him immunity from panic caused by infantry if he is on a horse, which is actually decently useful for a wizard as they are often at risk of fleeing when something close is wiped out.

Speaking of the banners, i also think most will stick with the griffon banner, especially as you can make do with regular spearmen instead of the veteran ones (a 3+ from shooting is obviously amazing but the full plate ain't cheap!)

[OMoran]

it depends. If you are going against enemies that suffer the combat resolution, you take griffon banner and try to make them flee. But if you are going against unbreakable units, better take the errantry banner and crush them. There are a number of unbreakable units, like the cathay balloons, chaos spawns, etc.

And you can't just shoot the bombard at them. It's more unreliable than a cannon and there can only be 2 on the table, so facing multiple threats require having multiple solutions.

Falcon horning them and charging with errantry banner feels good. S6 AP -3 attacks can kill them quick.

[Damar]

More, the knight origin also adds Veteran rule, to reroll that test.

Don't Renegade Princes/Captains come with veteran base?

Yes but if you take Bretonnian background for Outcast Wizard, he gets it too. Not really sure if there is much point in the fact aside from Sacrament of the Lady and Prayer Icon of Quenelles. Or some big weapon for Spectral Doppelganger.

[Perforated]

Falcon horning them and charging with errantry banner feels good. S6 AP -3 attacks can kill them quick.

They will just "Fire and Flee", you will eat five dragon bombs (six if it's a mount for a character). If you manage to catch it you will be down in CR, whatever the damage was from the fire and flee. You are unlikely to break it and it will simply do a disengage and pelter you with bombs again in the next turn.

The lantern is an absolute pest and there is nothing in the Renegade Crowns list that can realistically threaten them.

The access to the horn however, does mean that as long as you get that off, you can mostly ignore the lanterns unless they took Crane Guns, which they most likely did not.

[OMoran]

Falcon horning them and charging with errantry banner feels good. S6 AP -3 attacks can kill them quick.

They will just "Fire and Flee", you will eat five dragon bombs (six if it's a mount for a character). If you manage to catch it you will be down in CR, whatever the damage was from the fire and flee. You are unlikely to break it and it will simply do a disengage and pelter you with bombs again in the next turn.

The lantern is an absolute pest and there is nothing in the Renegade Crowns list that can realistically threaten them.

The access to the horn however, does mean that as long as you get that off, you can mostly ignore the lanterns unless they took Crane Guns, which they most likely did not.

TIL unbreakabe doesn't include ItP anymore, so they can flee.

It makes no sense, really, they don't break from combat but flee form it?

The more i think about this army, the more i realize the best units are actually Outriders and Sellswords. Heavy armor and shield for both.

[sedobren]

I mean, a bunch of cannons can kill them, even the mortar has a decent chance of hurting them as they are a large target (so no bombardment needed) and have a big 100x100 base so there is a decent chance that the central hole will be on the lantern's base. At least the ones that are not mount for the character are not that hard to kill for a gunline.

[Perforated]

I mean, a bunch of cannons can kill them, even the mortar has a decent chance of hurting them as they are a large target (so no bombardment needed) and have a big 100x100 base so there is a decent chance that the central hole will be on the lantern's base. At least the ones that are not mount for the character are not that hard to kill for a gunline.

Sure, but that kind of assumes that you are able to concentrate fire. And let me remind you that cannons might have issues targeting them. It doesn't matter if you can see the target if you can't see the ground in front of them (because, for some reason cannons aim at the ground).

If we go the route with Mortars, you'd need an absolute minimum of three shots. And that is assuming that all of them hit and wound and that they roll enough damage. Not a very realistic threat at all.

You're probably better off catching them in the open with a Helblaster, but even that assumes a lot.

The balloon really is a text book example of overpowered/under-priced NPE unit. And I will die on that hill.

[OMoran]

I mean, a bunch of cannons can kill them, even the mortar has a decent chance of hurting them as they are a large target (so no bombardment needed) and have a big 100x100 base so there is a decent chance that the central hole will be on the lantern's base. At least the ones that are not mount for the character are not that hard to kill for a gunline.

Sure, but that kind of assumes that you are able to concentrate fire. And let me remind you that cannons might have issues targeting them. It doesn't matter if you can see the target if you can't see the ground in front of them (because, for some reason cannons aim at the ground).

If we go the route with Mortars, you'd an absolute minimum of three shots. And that is assuming that all of them hit and wound and that they roll enough damage. Not a very realistic threat at all.

You're probably better off catching them in the open with a Helblaster, but even that assumes a lot.

The balloon really is a text book example of overpowered/under-priced NPI unit. And I will die on that hill.

Plus, it's not just the balloons. They can also bring 3 cannons with them, threatening your artillery too. If you don't go first, you're at risk of not having any artillery left on turn one. Their cannons can fire twice in a single shooting phase thanks to the ogre loader.

I totally agree Cathay is definitely an OP army and most units are underpriced.

[sedobren]

I mean, a bunch of cannons can kill them, even the mortar has a decent chance of hurting them as they are a large target (so no bombardment needed) and have a big 100x100 base so there is a decent chance that the central hole will be on the lantern's base. At least the ones that are not mount for the character are not that hard to kill for a gunline.

Sure, but that kind of assumes that you are able to concentrate fire. And let me remind you that cannons might have issues targeting them. It doesn't matter if you can see the target if you can't see the ground in front of them (because, for some reason cannons aim at the ground).

If we go the route with Mortars, you'd need an absolute minimum of three shots. And that is assuming that all of them hit and wound and that they roll enough damage. Not a very realistic threat at all.

You're probably better off catching them in the open with a Helblaster, but even that assumes a lot.

The balloon really is a text book example of overpowered/under-priced NPE unit. And I will die on that hill.

You can 100% shoot at a large target with a cannon even if you don't see the terrain in front of it, it's just going to harder since you must put the initial impact point on the base of the model (instead say, 6" in front of it). It's also less of an issue if you out your cannons on a hill. They significantly nerfed large targets in the latest faq, as they are basically impossible to hide now (unless they are really small, which the lantern isn't)

It's obviously not easy overall, but cannons are currently the best chance any army has to out them down, although I'd say that the bretonnian exiles have an advantage on the renegades since they also have the falcon horn and can simply take more cannons, while at the same time having also access to pegasus knights and royal pegasus to try and box them in or otherwise distract them.

*Maybe I'd also put beastment at the same level of exiles with the primal herd list, with the combination of the chalice, the can't fly banner and the various mean spells they have.

[sedobren]

I mean, a bunch of cannons can kill them, even the mortar has a decent chance of hurting them as they are a large target (so no bombardment needed) and have a big 100x100 base so there is a decent chance that the central hole will be on the lantern's base. At least the ones that are not mount for the character are not that hard to kill for a gunline.

Sure, but that kind of assumes that you are able to concentrate fire. And let me remind you that cannons might have issues targeting them. It doesn't matter if you can see the target if you can't see the ground in front of them (because, for some reason cannons aim at the ground).

If we go the route with Mortars, you'd need an absolute minimum of three shots. And that is assuming that all of them hit and wound and that they roll enough damage. Not a very realistic threat at all.

You're probably better off catching them in the open with a Helblaster, but even that assumes a lot.

The balloon really is a text book example of overpowered/under-priced NPE unit. And I will die on that hill.

Ok so i played vs a not-so-heavy balloon list with a nuln empire list and i get what say but it's even worse than that. The cannon is the best shot there is to killing one (i managed to get the character one down to 3 wounds over 3 rounds), an organ gun will do basically nothing as it's T5. It's extremely rough for the empire, so much that I'd say it's less rough for the renegade crowns if you play heavy infantry and shield them as much as possible with magic. Having flying models is not really a solution, they can just fly away and we can't follow so unless you kill one in one turn (it's hard to do 10 wounds in just one combat, unless of course you are a shegungan lord with spectral doppleganger and the monkey king wisdom, the you dish out like 20+ ap-4 wounds each combat phase!)  - having a pegasus or a griffon means basically nothing here, they will just fly around you.

[commandant]

they can't fly around a peggy as a peggy has 360 degree line of sight

a grandmaster of the white wolf on a peggy with the ogre blade could slap it about a bit.   5 attacks hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 3+ with d3 wounds.   Against a normal balloon it'd be grand (except that it is roughly twice the price) but against a mounted balloon it could be a problem. 

The helblaster should do okay given that it is str 5 and pumps out a fair few shots with the engineer attached.

[sedobren]

they can't fly around a peggy as a peggy has 360 degree line of sight

a grandmaster of the white wolf on a peggy with the ogre blade could slap it about a bit.   5 attacks hitting on a 3+ and wounding on a 3+ with d3 wounds.   Against a normal balloon it'd be grand (except that it is roughly twice the price) but against a mounted balloon it could be a problem. 

The helblaster should do okay given that it is str 5 and pumps out a fair few shots with the engineer attached.

That's not what will happen sadly. A grandmaster on pegasus will probably die from the fire and flee and then it will not catch the lantern. More importantly, it will bever get anywhere close as it will be killed by the cannons, or have its swiftstride removed every turn, or killed by the shegungan with the monkey king wisdom and so on and so on. I mean a lantern killed my general on griffon with the fire and flee, and it even rolled badly on the number of shots with the dragon fire bombs.

The best chance are cannons, maybe 4 of them if you go first and do not get wrecked by their first turn fire. It killed one of my cannons and then Luckyly hia other cannon misfired, so i only lost one.

The helblaster is absolutely terrible, i rolled amazing number of shots vs one, 30 24 and 16 in three turns and dealt only 5 wounds. Don't forget the output basically halves each step, 30 become 15 after rolls to hit, then become 7.5 after rolls to wound and then it saves a 5+ and a 5+, more than halving them again. I mean i also shot 28 times vs the jade infantry and only killed 3.

The least powerful units were the 5 knights with the item that gives unrequited spirits, which is very strong vs the empire as it's 3d6 s2 hits, so it wounds on 5s and ignore armours which  makes it extremely lethal on lone characters

[commandant]

I suppose it depends on what they are armed with but if they have Crane Guns then they can't fire and flee as crane guns are cumbersome.

Is there a special rule that overrides this?

Other than that everything seems very short range.

[sedobren]

I suppose it depends on what they are armed with but if they have Crane Guns then they can't fire and flee as crane guns are cumbersome.

Is there a special rule that overrides this?

Other than that everything seems very short range.

i don't think crane guns have ever been used so far. the range is not an issue as the bombs it drop can be dropped on any enemy that was within 6" alongside its movement path, including a unit it moves away from. the weapon everyone uses, rightly so, is the dragonfire bombs that have move&shoot, so the lantern can march and shoot, then reserve move away or onto its nex target. this means that on the first turn the sky lantern will march 16" (or more, depending on whether the strategist took some magic item), then drop the bombs, shoot with their 9" grenades and then reserve move away to safety 8" or more. even if it doesn't move away to safety, it's got fire and flee and feigned flight, so charhing it only means gifting the opponent a free shooting phase and even if you lock it in combat somehow it can safely retreat and you cannot pursue.

the bombs (the ones on the crew, not the other ones it drops) are s4 ap-1 armourbane (1) with quick shot that becomes 1d3+1 hits after rolling to hit, so no malus for multiple shots, on a ab4/5 crew. the one it drops it's either one 5" template or 2 3" (which is arguably worse if you ask me), in any case a hit on a unit with the big one is easily 20+ models at risk of being hit. with s5 ap-2. in my game the other player actually rolled pretty bad for the dragonfire bombs hit rolls, yet it managed to wipe most of the army just with them and a shegungan lord - as his cannons only ended up killing one of mines as they misfired.

just play once against a list with one or two lanterns and you will see for yourself. consider most tournament lists play 3, 4 or even 5

[commandant]

I'm not contesting that the balloons are strong, but also you can't march and reserve move (unless Cathay) have a rule I don't know about.

[sedobren]

I'm not contesting that the balloons are strong, but also you can't march and reserve move (unless Cathay) have a rule I don't know about.

no that's right, my bad, you cannot march and reserve move obviously, but they also happen to have scout so they don't need to do that in the firs turn, they can just deploy 12" from wherever they need to be.

the basically made the ultimate skirmishing unit, with all of the rules that skirmishing unit needs, including some new ones to make them pretty much impossible to kill in melee unless an excessive amount of care is put into it, gave them some of the best shooting weapons around and then they also made them extremely resilient (at least for what is supposed to be a light unit with a baloon made of literal paper) and a character mount. all of that for less points than a war wagon.

if you remove the lantern from cathay's roster, while they will remain extremely powerful as they basically get access to every other faction's magic items or abilities, they become just another top tier army, definitively below khemri and probably bretonnia and beastmen as well. their cores are ok, not bad as the infantry is nice, but it's a lightly-elite middle of the road unit that is best used in a supporting role. the cavalry while having some nice rules it lacks the impact power that other cavalry have, the cannons are the best out there right now, but thye are still cannons at the end of the day 8so not exactly the best war machine around), the sentinel is decent but nothing crazy and while the shugengan can make some incredibly strong builds (like the aforementioned monkey king wisdom one), it's not like cathay is the only cation with an uber-beatstick character in the game - although the cathayan one is admittedly cheaper than other builds.

the lanterns change all of this as they allow the cathayan player to wipe most of the enemy's advanced and dangerous units, especially infantry and cavalry, while spending very little points and by being tough to remove for most armies.

if you go looking on the tournament websites like old world rankings, cathay curently has a winrate of around 60%, which is pretty bad for the game in general. Naturally it will go down as players adapt their lists (although i remain that because of what i've explained, there is litte that most armies can do to adapt to cathay), but i don't think by much.The closest is the wild herd (at 55%) which already received a needed nerf to its magic - and i suspect most of those wins are from before the faq - and every other amy, including the very powerful errantry, exiles and khemri lists are all below 50%, as it should be.

[Griefbringer]

Would this discussion about Cathayan balloons and tactics against them be better suited to a topic of its own?

[sedobren]

Would this discussion about Cathayan balloons and tactics against them be better suited to a topic of its own?

Absolutely, sorry, this got derailed completely haha

Going back to the topic, although it's not strictly a magic item, renegades can pull a scouting or ambushing wizard which is pretty unique as far as i know. In particular this means that you can more or less keep up with vanguarding outriders (you scout the wizard first then vanguard them around him) obviously ambush him with them. Potentially a battle magic wizard with the noble outlaw upgrade can scout, join with outriders first turn, move with them, them move again with the spell and then reserve move away. It's 4 moves in the first turn!

Also a wizard with scouting bandits, putting it inside a forest or something like that, can pull a decent first turn fusillade with, say, the demonology signature missile, maybe shooting it twice with the wand, a +1 from the wizard's staff (so casting it a +2, decent), his own repeating pistol/handgun and the unit's blunderbuss!

[Griefbringer]

renegades can pull a scouting or ambushing wizard which is pretty unique as far as i know.

High Elf mages can get the Shadow Stalker honour, which gives them Ambush, Scout, Bow of Avelorn and a couple of other pecks. They cannot be mounted, however.

Has anybody actually ever met one on the battlefield?

[sedobren]

renegades can pull a scouting or ambushing wizard which is pretty unique as far as i know.

High Elf mages can get the Shadow Stalker honour, which gives them Ambush, Scout, Bow of Avelorn and a couple of other pecks. They cannot be mounted, however.

Has anybody actually ever met one on the battlefield?

None seen so far for me!

Although maybe there aren't a lot of use in their case for an ambushing wizard, scout is probably more useful. Like a lvl1 wizard with illusion and maybe a repeating pistol, inside a unit of brigands with blunderbusses, both scouting in a forest so that the unit as a whole can get to a whopping -3 to be hit  from shooting attacks.

Beastmen can also have ambushing wizards in the wild herd army i think? Although in their case they have a lot to make ambush work and viletide has a pretty short range