Topic: Foreign Ministry

[Warlord]

I think you all mis-understand me, and are forgetting what the fluff we submit actually means. As far as 'allying' with evil races, I am not suggesting that they help us find the crown, or we share the crown with them. I am suggesting we target races who specifically don't really want the crown or cannot be major players for the crown, and moreso have other fluff objectives they may want to achieve.
Overall, we are / will be contributing to the fluff of the entire Warhammer world, and as such offering a race that has little / no interest in acquiring the crown a special place in our fluff makes it more interesting. We are technically not allying with them as far as fighting goes, more making sure that the fluff objectives we set out to achieve get widespread coverage.

We can say we will mention the success of DE slavers, and they will mention our forest clearing / tower building efforts (just an example). Nowhere in this will we be sharing the crown, or the search. I am simply saying this, because this is not so much an alliance in that 'in game' we will work together, but more when discussing 'in game' activities, our minor fluff objectives are fulfilled.

I just want you all to remember there are multiple outcomes we want from this campaign, not just the crown, and I would feel a better sense of accomplishment if some of our efforts actually meant something, rather than just volume of battles of us and allies finding the crown.

You can't think about it as a good vs evil thing. Its a lets get our fluff out there and accepted thing.

[wissenlander]

I would definitely agree with that.  And it does make sense.  The more areas that fluff is touched on the better.  We just need more hands in the pot here at the moment.  We've got a few people contacting multiple forums.  It's hard to keep up with everything at once.

I'm fine with a 'fluff alliance' with one of the baddies, but what do others think?

[cisse]

Warlord, you're right.

While I'd never say we should really ally ourselves with any of the evil races, negotiations can be attempted and some agreements can be made about fluff and stuff like that. We could offer VC's, Druchii etc an appearance in some stories we write, giving them a more substantial background for what they're actually doing here. Asking those races to help us in the campaign by posting battles on the other hand...That's something else entirely.

I'm all in favour of trying to make up such agreements for fluff with the bad guys. Is there anyone who still got time to work on that? I'm having a hard enough time as it is already with the races we're already in discussion with...

[Ostermarker]

It may be easier to ally with the undead, maybe by promising some minor sovereignty to Sylvania, on the theory that we might be able to control them if they were electors (well we do have a spare runefang) with the Tomb Kings, we could promise that any Khemrian artifacts we recover in this campaign would be returned.

Or something.

I doubt Chaos would be welcomed, though maybe Chaos Dwarfs, they are physically similar to the other Dwarfs, and we have had little good from the Dwarfs. Or simply we could do as we are with the Dark Elves, promising them slaves.

Bretonnians could be a good alliance, the fluff says we're against them (though most fluff says we should be with the Dwarfs, *shrug*) aslong as we mention "The long friendship between our two countries, and in this time of war, Mankind must stick together"

High Elves and Wood Elves could be promised protection in the land of the Empire, the Wood Elves that live in the Empire could be given Elector status, allowing them some say in the workings of the Empire (if they can be bothered of course)

Ogres could be seen as possible allies (or mercenaries) for money, food, beer, or whatever. Though of course they offered to the Dwarfs first, and may prioritize, though that does mean we could still hire them occasionally.

[Demonslayer]

Ah, another non-agression pact. Just great. Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for all the work and patience everybody here is spending on relationships with the other races. But I am TERRIBLY disappointed in those other races.

For them, a non-agression pact means this; We help them accomplish their goals, we fight enemies they're too lazy to fight themselves, and if we bother them they'll kill us. To them the non-agression pact is simply an exuse to invade our lands and do as they please, without us getting in the way.

The dwarfs, elves and bretonnia have allied with one another, leaving us out of the deal. They march into our land practically shouting "get out of our way or die!". All this over some crown that we would have given to them if only they'd asked for it. It has come to the point where we actually have to beg the other races not to hurt us and promise them to help them and support them in any way possible, without asking anything in return.

Let's face it; the former "Council of Light" is attacking us. It is now that we must make our stand against this arrogance! I hear others shouting that we must not forsake our Sigmarite heritage, but by letting these non-allied armies into our lands, that's EXACTLY what we're doing. After all, the Empire was founded by Sigmar. Sigmar united us all into one empire, for his dream was a unified race of men, defending their land and their unity against ALL invaders, not just those from the north!

To think that the dwarfs, elves and bretonnians are still following the light is to deny the truth, to say that the dark races should be deemed evil is to be naïve. Yes, the races of Chaos, the undead and all those would attack us too, but to them, we are but random targets. The council of light has targeted us directly. The only reason they're not fighting us yet is because we sit back in fear while they take what they want from us! Men of Sigmar do not give in to fear!

Now, what the dark races could offer to us, and what we could offer to them;

VC: Again, a Vampire trapped in the Empire will help us if we do not threathen us, help him in fact. We promise him that we do not attack him, that we recognizetheir rule over Sylvania, and in return they only have to strengthen their armies by fighting for us instead of against us.
DE: Again, they raid chaos coasts instead of ours. Chaos will be a very big threat to them should they conquer the nemesis crown, so it is in their best interest to fight chaos, and not the one trying to stop Chaos. To round the deal off, we offer them a large percentage of prisoners. If the council of light openly attacks us, then that percentage will include the high and wood elves they hate so much (after all, once those guys start attacking us there's really no point in showing them any mercy).
Skaven: We will make it clear that we will not give them the crown, nor help them in any way, but if they agree to help us then we will not stop them either. As leverage we will let them mine their precious warpstone from one of the mines we guard so closely, during the duration of the alliance. If the deal with the dark elves goes off, we might use this to trade warpstone for slaves, just so the dark elves will have even more reason to join us.


Edit: @cisse; I'll get on the contracts, then. After all it was my idea  . Though it might be best if I do NOT negotiate with the dark races. I pissed off a whole lot of skaven and dark elves in the past (I do have a friendly contact on a VC site, though).

[Ostermarker]

Let's face it; the former "Council of Light" is attacking us. It is now that we must make our stand against this arrogance! I hear others shouting that we must not forsake our Sigmarite heritage, but by letting these non-allied armies into our lands, that's EXACTLY what we're doing. After all, the Empire was founded by Sigmar. Sigmar united us all into one empire, for his dream was a unified race of men, defending their land and their unity against ALL invaders, not just those from the north!

VC: Again, a Vampire trapped in the Empire will help us if we do not threathen us, help him in fact. We promise him that we do not attack him, that we recognizetheir rule over Sylvania, and in return they only have to strengthen their armies by fighting for us instead of against us.
DE: Again, they raid chaos coasts instead of ours. Chaos will be a very big threat to them should they conquer the nemesis crown, so it is in their best interest to fight chaos, and not the one trying to stop Chaos. To round the deal off, we offer them a large percentage of prisoners. If the council of light openly attacks us, then that percentage will include the high and wood elves they hate so much (after all, once those guys start attacking us there's really no point in showing them any mercy).
Skaven: We will make it clear that we will not give them the crown, nor help them in any way, but if they agree to help us then we will not stop them either. As leverage we will let them mine their precious warpstone from one of the mines we guard so closely, during the duration of the alliance. If the deal with the dark elves goes off, we might use this to trade warpstone for slaves, just so the dark elves will have even more reason to join us.

Why not use the first paragraph in our fluff? The rest of the council of light has turned agaoinst us, so we must turn from those who turn from us, fluff-wise, a reason to side with others. The Vampires could be a good move, by promising not to attack them, and to recognize Sylvania as its own state may work. Dark Elves, its all been said before, by trading them prisoners as slaves, we gain allies. The Skaven will be twisted against us, they may use us to reach their "Great Ascendency" so I'm not sure how/if we should deal with them.

[Demonslayer]

Why not use the first paragraph in our fluff?

  I'd be honoured.

The Skaven will be twisted against us, they may use us to reach their "Great Ascendency" so I'm not sure how/if we should deal with them.

No they won't  . That's the beauty of it. We're not being used by them, we simply offer them something in return for their help.

On a side note, would it be a good idea to offer the skaven the Helm of the Skavenslayer, as a sign that we're not out to harm them? Giving someone a weapon that can hurt only them should be proof of our "good" intent. On the other hand, it might reming them what we did to them 1500 years ago.

[Ostermarker]

The Skaven aren't stupid, they will most likely see this as a form of agreement/surrender. It could be a good goodwill gift though.

[wissenlander]

I believe that relations with the Woodies has ended.  They feel, at least at the moment, that if all we can agree upon is not to fight one another and to kill beastmen, there's nothing to stand upon.

I'm done with dealing with them.  They won't listen and the've made their minds.  I'm going to focus on other areas, and stop wasting my time.

[cisse]

Guys, never forget that we are a Sigmarite nation. An alliance with any kind of undead, beasts, or chaos is out of the question I think. Betrayed or not, let it to the Dwarfs to make stupid against-all-fluff (meow! splat! there goes the kitten) agreements, I don't think the Empire as a whole would ever consider talking with undead and such. A general as individual, yes, but the Empire as a whole...

Now, some former enemies could be bargained with, I fully agree. DE's could be given slaves, as well as Chaos Dwarfs. While not our closest friends, we could turn both of these races away from us and point them to our... erm, enemies I suppose... (it's all getting confusing by now). But making real alliances with them is a bit over the top I think. Furthermore, there's VC's, skaven and all those races - here I can't even see us giving them gold or slaves to turn them away. But the DE's and CD's are worth a shot perhaps to be approached in this way. These are agreements made in-character, these sort of agreements can be explained in the fluff.

That said, that is only the in-character side of the story. In real life, we can easily approach them on their respective sites, ask them what they think, who they're planning to attack, and see if we can convince them to attack anyone else but us (by reasoning things like "we'd not destroy the crown so you still have a chance of stealing it later on" and such). We can make agreements to mention each other in the fluff (like Warlord said) and highlight each other's achievement, without actually working together. These kind of agreements are real-life or out-of-character, we can't really explain how they come to happen in fluff.

I'm not sure if I make any sense here, and if the difference I'm trying to describe between the two kinds of arrangements, ar clear. That said, if most people are in favour of trying to make in-character agreements with evil races, you should get going.

[Demonslayer]

I'm not sure if I make any sense here

With the topic of "get our enemies to attack our enemies' enemies instead of us", how much sense can one man make  ?

I fully agree that we won't be friends with any of those races, and the alliance will fall as soon as the little trinket has left play. We're just trying not to get steamrollered overhere.

I've got a day off tomorrow, and I'll try whipping up some contracts then.

[wissenlander]

Thank you very much Demonslayer.  It's much appreciated.

[Demonslayer]

No problem. Just remember; due to bad relationships with members of those races, it's better I don't show my face around there ...

[wissenlander]

That's fine.  Right now any sort of help is appreciated.  You can be the behind the scenes guy no problem.

[Demonslayer]

Something I just found on a big VC-site; Mannfred is dead!~Well, he has been for, like, centuries, you know, but this time he's really dead-dead!
Apparently the vampire character is a Nechrach Vampire who has taken Mannfred's position as leader of all the von Carsteins.

Well isn't this nice? This can be used. Even though he has fought his way to supremacy, he probably understands that the von Carstein's are not too fond of him. If he comes to a deal with us, where we over him SYLVANIA, then he'll take it to solidify his rule. Besides, he will need help to keep the other vampires in check. So there's our explanation if we still fight the VC! We're actually helping the new ruler flush out the traitors. Yes, they'd lose points game-wise, but killing his commanders will still hurt his military powers. Too bad for him...

[wissenlander]

Ah yes, good going Demonslayer.

As of now here's what we've got going on.  Today's status report.  Thanks to Cisse for a lot of help today.  We've made some decent strides today, at least we've gotten a little farther.

Dwarfs:   Still reeling from the fact they've turned on us.  They're still considering non-agression at best.  One of the main issues here is the fact that since we're both one of the three main armies, it wouldn't make since to side with one another.  That and they think we're a weak race...

High Elves:  Cisse tells me that they're split really nice like.  1/3 will support us, nearly 1/2 will support the Dwarfs, leaving the rest as neutral I guess. 

Wood Elves:   I had to hold my tongue over there.  Those guys can be down right rude (in character of course).  They won't help us.  Best we can hope for is non-agression, but they've sided with the Dwarfs for the most part, so not sure how that'll work.

Bretonnians:  Do not support an invasion.  They're forming a council to figure out what's going on.  The Dwarfs have presented them a treaty.  Right now they don't want to invade, but they don't really want to attack the Dwarfs either.  They are fearful of a Tomb King invasion and are thinking at the moment about being neutral to all 'good guys' and fight only evil.  Our best bet thus far from the old Conclave still though...

Ogres:  Firmly in the Dwarf camp.  I haven't tried to talk to them, but they seem happy with being Dwarf lackies this round.

Lizards:   Cisse has just approached them, so time will tell.

Some other stuff is in the works, but tomorrow will tell I guess.

[cisse]

High Elves:  Cisse tells me that they're split really nice like.  1/3 will support us, nearly 1/2 will support the Dwarfs, leaving the rest as neutral I guess. 

Stormbrow is the expert here, he can tell you probably more about what's going on.

@ Demonslayer: regardless what has happened, do we really want to make an alliance with undea? Turning them away from us, fine. But I can't see any Imperial messenger going over there and dsicuss strategy with our allies... Having them attack someone else could work, but what can we offer them? Nothing I think, it just wouldn't syut the Empire to give them Sylvania or something.

Even if the majority is up for it, wait a day or maybe two. We're still working on Bret's, HE's and Lizzies, and we wouldn't want to scare them awayo or give them reason to distrust us.

[Veldemere]

ok I have made a final punt at the Woodies but i got slightly irate by their way ooc responses (not so much to us but to the Dwarfs), I think the forum must be populated by 12 year olds (no offense to any here). There is still a chance of a non agression pact, but very slim.

[Stormbrow II]

Stormbrow is the expert here, he can tell you probably more about what's going on.

I'll let you look at this one yourself:

If there is any proof that the elves have not changed with time this is it. You are a shame to yourself and your kin Stormbrow. This I take great personal offense to, as now not only do you show disdain upon the cooperation of our two nations, you now make an active threat of war. This is a slight upon the nation of the dawi, and while I come here in peace for my nation I grow weary to your discord and bullyboy tactics.

I give you a choice elf. Withdraw your statement, or I draw a bloodoath to see you pay for your arrogance and aggression. This is my oath, and my oath alone, as I know there have been a few objective or honourable voices amongst the court, and I would not jepordise an alliance with the elves that seem to hold rational thought.

Choose your response carefully elf, for while I will not draw my axe as an ambassador to your lands I will seek you out and slay you if I ever hear your name amongst an army that faces us.

I have their ambassador threatening me which isn't impressing the rest of our men at the moment so of those that have voted against ye, as already stated earlier, they're switching allegiances.  I'm single-handledly getting in the way of an alliance.

Even if the majority is up for it, wait a day or maybe two. We're still working on Bret's, HE's and Lizzies, and we wouldn't want to scare them awayo or give them reason to distrust us.

Methinks a NAP might work well with some of the races listed - the tree-huggers are hell-bent on allying with the stunties and their minds won't be changed.  Sadly. And yes, some of their responses are fairly...frustrating to have to read.

[cisse]

Yes, I noticed your efforts on Asur.org.I've also posted some delicate hints (well... sort of delicate), and I've talked to some peeps there. Dwarfs aren't all that popular over there anymore as they were when they first asked for an alliance. There's still work to do though, it's a close run. Anyway, we're happy with whatever help we get from there.

[Powder Monkey]

Dear fellow generals and tireless ambassadors!

Let me say first that the amount of work put into forming alliances and contacting other races is amazing. It makes for an thrilling read and transports a strange feeling of reality into the world of what is basically a boardgame. I applaud our ambassadors.

Now my gripe  :
I strongly, strongly advise against giving away entire regions of the empire for the sake of small advantages in an upcoming, less than world shaking summer campaign. While it could be argumented that GW would never integrate, for example, the VC being given  entire Sylvania into official fluff, it would still leave the VC community with the feeling that it now rightfully belongs to them. Same goes for throwing magical items out of the window - giving the skaven an item that is a huge advantage in games against them seems to be folly, more so to reach something as fickle as a non aggression pact with a nation of rats, for sigmars sake!
My next point: Forming alliances to mention in submitted fluff is a great idea and something I am enthusiastic about. But it should stop short of making actual gifts of land and wealth / artifacts, because the W-E community is not speaking for all empire players. I am of the opinion that this forum represents the best place to come to as a general of the Empire, but we do not by far speak with / for everybody. So even if GW integrated our ideas, how would the majority of players react to suddenly not being allowed to field the helm of the skavenslayer? Or Khemri related items?
In game reasons also speak against giving parts of the empire away freely: I doubt that any nation would actually yield parts of itself to achieve a short term advantage / alliance. At least this idea would be outrageous to any nation on earth, as far as I know. Imagine the situation after the Nemesis boots, Nemesis scarf and the Nemesis toilet seat have been discovered in campaigns to come? Would you accept giving away half of the Empire to improve the outcome of these campaigns? Because that's what would happen if we started to chip away at our very land that uncounted men have died to protect. Not to mention that any gift we make strenghtens our enemies, who only have to cancel their treaty with us to have freely won anything we gave them.

And another thing: I am appalled at the speed the empire players posting here seem to switch their moral foundations. True, the classical allies of men have little interest in joining us - mainly because GW steered them fluff-wise, in some part because people on other races forums are just that - people. No dwarf is registered at bugmans, but humans that maybe see us more as a contester for their place in the top ten of good races, or maybe envy us for our greatcannons, or I don't know what drives them to ignore the oaths that bind their fluff to ours, their nation to ours.

But I tell you one thing: One outcome I want to achieve in this campaign more than any other is this - that we can say afterwards that we did not forget the spirit of our nation, that we did not turn on our old friends while they tried to stand alongside us, and that we did not for some magic artifact and a small diplomatic advantage suddenly turned to our most bitter enemies that have hated and murdered us for so long! I would be perfectly happy to say to the dwarfs in the winter:  "Congratulations on your stupid crown, you earned it by betraying friends, while we stood alone with our honor intact." *sticks out tongue at dwarf* Moral high ground, my friends!


To end this plea / rant: I suggest trying to convince other 'good' races that we need to fight alongside, to the effect of submitting each others fluff and not reporting battles against each other. Anything more than our stated campaign goals (cleaning the forest, establishing strongholds etc.) is unlikely to be accepted by GW, and probably not fair for the majority of empire players that have no say here.


Your diplomatic PM

[Veldemere]

PM, thanks once again for grounding us and allowing us to focus on what matters in this campaign, as well as out import within it. As you say it is just a game or series of games but I have enjoyed this element of it. As it stands nothing is given away because no-one likes us. I say we all just go out there and win every battle by masacre and then as a reward tell GW which army to nerf for annoying us!

[Demonslayer]

The contract for a treaty with the VC:


To (insert vampire’s name here),

   This letter was written and sent to you in the light of recent events, triggered by the finding of the Nemesis Crown in imperial lands. I need not inform you that around the world, all races have reacted by sending armed forces to claim this crown.
   It has come to the Empire’s attention that your lord, Count Mannfred von Carstein, has recently found final death. We do not know who was responsible for this act, but we would like to offer you our condolences. Though there has been a long standing enmity between our two nations, we had great respect for this exceptional and cunning leader.
   But with the start of a new era for the vampires of Sylvania, we can only imagine the ill effect this vacuum of power would present to you. Combined with the threat that comes with this new war, we are of the opinion that a treaty between our factions could be equally beneficial to the both of us.
   With the larger share of the council of light turning against us in this war, we feel it is time for new alliances. With this invasion, the empire cannot use a vampiric threat. Likewise, we would think that the vampires of Sylvania have no need for an imperial threat while their leadership is still unstable.
   What we propose is a treaty of mutual non-aggression, as well as a cooperation between our two factions. We have included our terms at the bottom of this message.
   Know that, though our people have been enemies for centuries now, we feel that both of us must set aside our differences if we intend to withstand the coming war.


   Sincerely,

   Emperor Karl Franz (or whoever’s writing)



Terms of our alliance

1. There will be no acts of aggression between the imperial forces at warhammer-empire.com and the vampire counts of  invisionfree.com/the_blood_keep. Of course, we respect the fact that you cannot speak for all vampires, as we cannot speak for all imperial generals. This treaty exists only between the members of the mentioned sites.

2. This treaty will last until the official end of the war for the nemesis crown. At that point, it shall be decided whether a continuation of our alliance will be desirable and beneficial for both factions involved.

3. Either faction involved may request military aid from the other faction.

3a. The addressed faction shall provide a military force to help the requesting faction in a defensive action only.
3b. Of course, the amount of military aid sent will be within the limits of reason. If the addressed faction needs all it’s troops in a defensive action, then the faction reserves the right to deny the requesting faction any military aid. This goes both ways.
3c. Both factions reserve the right to refuse to fight their own allies.

These terms are as of yet negotiable, and more can be added at the vampire count’s discretion.

[Demonslayer]

   To (whoever leads the druchii in this campaign),

   This letter was written and sent to you in the light of recent events, triggered by the finding of the Nemesis Crown in imperial lands. I need not inform you that around the world, all races have reacted by sending armed forces to claim this crown.
   We have heard that your forces do not actively seek the nemesis crown, but that you do wish to take advantage of the coming battle by raiding the undermanned coastline cities.   
   However, there is no need for hostilities between our two races. Many coastal cities are now undefended, so you can have your pick. Also we would like to point out to you that your neighbours, the hordes of chaos, are on the march to secure the crown for themselves, as opposed to the empire which wants no dealings with the crown. It is no secret that the hordes are at enmity with your race, and we imagine you would not like them to have control over such a powerful artefact.
   Since many of our former allies have turned on us, we would like to ask you to fight the hordes of chaos instead of the empire. You will be able to raid coastal cities all the same, and at the same time you will stop the hordes from gaining a military advantage over your empire. If you prefer a different target then you preserve the right to attack them instead. We simply ask you not to attack us.
   As a token of our good will, the empire will agree to deliver fifty percent of the prisoners we take in this war to you, to be used as you see fit.
   I hope that our empires can come to a mutually beneficial agreement.


   Sincerely,

   Emperor Karl Franz (or whoever’s writing)

Terms of our alliance

1. There will be no acts of aggression between the imperial forces at warhammer-empire.com and the druchii of druchii.net. Of course, we respect the fact that you cannot speak for all druchii, as we cannot speak for all imperial generals. This treaty exists only between the members of the mentioned sites.

2. This treaty will last until the official end of the war for the nemesis crown. At that point, it shall be decided whether a continuation of our alliance will be desirable and beneficial for both factions involved.

3. A total of fifty percent of prisoners taken by the empire during the war for the nemesis crown shall be given to the druchii, in weekly periods.
3a. The empire reserves the right to question individual prisoners thought to have valuable information for us. This might lead to the replacement of this individual for our quota, or a stalled delivery of this individual. A total of forty percent of prisoners shall be presented to you regardless of this.
3b. The total number of prisoners transferred will be a relative number, not an absolute one. The druchii will respect the fact that the number of prisoners given may vary with each weekly payment.
3c. The medical state and the race it belongs to are random factors. Only prisoners taken during this war will be given to you.

[wissenlander]

PM:  I agree with you on your points.  There's one issue that throws everything that we intend to do into the abyss.  Games Workshop.  We can do what we want, but in the end will it matter?

We tried to set up an alliance with the Dwarfs, and came dang close, but were unable to because we are unable to say that we can hand the crown over.  The council option was the only one we could do to keep with the fluff, but it went against what the Dwarfs wanted.

At the same time the Bretonnian point of focus is a land grab.  While most of the Bretonnians at the Round Table do not want this, they are not the hand that rules.  We propose these things for the slight chance that we can get some fluff in and it works in with what GW does.

Thus far our hands have been tied greatly by this campaign.  We are seen as weak and fickle and due to that none of our old allies wants to stand with us.

I agree with you that in principle we should keep to our morals.  We should still be able to manipulate here and there for a favorable outcome, by which we should set up fluff alliances with some of the bad races.  If we are outnumbered on the fluff front, we'll get nowhere, and this is one area that we should not forget about.