Topic: 6ED vs 7ED Empire Armybook

[azrael88]

Together with my friends we've decided to raise Warhammer 6th edition from the dead There are 5 players for now. We've agreed to play 6ed rules but free to use 6th or 7th ed armybooks.
We have Dwarf player using revised armybook (still 6ED), High Elf using 7ed, Lizardmen also 7ed, same goes to Warriors of Chaos player and Dark Elf buddy. And there's me with my old trusted 6ed Empire book.
Honestly, I do not see a necessity to switch to 7ed book, but some options are fun, like Outriders or Hellstrom. On the other hand Hellblaster without autohits looks very bad (Organ gun still autohits), same goes to Pistoliers losing Fussilade and Steam Tank with only T6.

[Warlord]

That's an interesting question.

I feel like both books are decent - the 7th ed book has better Warrior Priest / Arch Lector on War Altar choice, with more streamlined Steam Tank, option for more than 1 unit of Greatswords and Flagellants (one unit as Core when you take a Warrior Priest) and most of the options in the book are much cheaper so you can take more of most things.

7th ed was a refinement of 6th ediiton - you are right the Helblaster, Pistoliers, and Steam Tank are the main things taken away, but we got so much more instead. It might be worth checking the 6th ed rules for pistols, and comparing to the 7th ed rules for Pistoliers - you may still have some beneficial rules there (not sure though).

[azrael88]

Correct me if Iam wrong: 7ed rulebook allows model with two pistols to fire twice in shooting phase, while 6ed rules forbids it.

So, Pistoliers evolved from fast hard hitting in a charge cavalry to fast volley firing cavalry (5man unit with RepPistol champion, in 6ed 7 shots in shooting phase, 11 attacks in charge plus 5 horse attacks; in 7ed same unit - 11 shots in shooting phase, 5 attacks in a charge plus 5 horse attacks, because no Fussilade rule).

[Warlord]

Ah, you are correct. I was meaning that despite missing fusillade, I think you still get 1 S4 -2AS attack, rather than 7th ed, where it was be 1 S3 attack only (no 2 hands when mounted).

I guess it all really depends how much you love pistoliers, vs how much you want the other options....

[commandant]

Correct me if Iam wrong: 7ed rulebook allows model with two pistols to fire twice in shooting phase, while 6ed rules forbids it.

Is there no multi-shot in 6th ed.  Remember that multi shot has a -1 to hit and I think long range for pistols came in 7th (though that might have been 8th)

The 7th ed book is better in most ways, everything got cheaper, warrior priest hatred got a lot better, the arch lector exists.

Only the Helbaster volley gun and the pistoleers are worse

[azrael88]

Only the Helbaster volley gun and the pistoleers are worse

My two beloved units

[azrael88]

Another one: Greatswords lost magic standard as option in 7ed, what is more Griffon Banner is now 55pts not 50 points, so state troops cannot have GB without BSB... Great loss.

[Warlord]

That is true… but I liked having multiple small units of elites instead. I used to take 2 units of 15 greatswords, 1 unit of 15 or 20, or two units of 10 flagellants, as well as having space in my rare slots for a steam tank and helstorm. I also used to take the War Altar between 2 decent sized units of state troops.

I get what you are missing regarding the volley gun and the pistoliers. But pistoliers aren’t going to win you a game with the volley charge. Not more than a core unit of knights can anyway. The volley gun was excellent though, and used to regularly take out all kinds of enemy heavy hitters for me. But it also used to malfunction. I know I always preferred 7th ed having more of pretty much every unit type across the board because it just felt like I had way more viable options.

[commandant]

Another one: Greatswords lost magic standard as option in 7ed, what is more Griffon Banner is now 55pts not 50 points, so state troops cannot have GB without BSB... Great loss.

The Griffen banner on state troops or greatswords was a big loss

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Apart from what Warlord already mentioned, a tactical bonus in 7th was the fact that  detachments did not need ranks to disrupt the enemy. The increase in points for the Griffon Banner was crap, but most other magic items  got cheaper (including the common ones) and/or better (Alfred's casket, for instance). 

The rules for the Steam tank were streamlined, but as soon as the ST lost 4-5 wounds, it basically became a piece of junk.

[commandant]

I thought you just needed unit strength of 5

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Exactly - that was only the case in the 7th edition AB.

[azrael88]

@Warlord - you're absolutely right, pistoliers are a nice addition also the dreaded Helblaster. What hurts me more is a loss of magic banner on state troops and Greatswords and higher cost of Griffon Banner.

Regarding detachment  - 6th needed a frontage of at least 4 models and US5, 7th just US5, making detachment more manouverable, like 9 militia 3x3.

[commandant]

Yes but in 6th ed 4 models was a rank. I donno. I always deployed my units at least 4 wide so this never came up I suppose.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Well, yes, in the 6th edition, detachments required US 5 and at least one rank of 4 models. In the 7th edition, ranks required 5 models, but detachments only required US 5, no rank. 3x3 detachments became more or less standard at the time for Empire armies.

On a side note: as I have observed before, the only time the Empire could be said to be a first tier army was the period when the 7th edition AB was upgraded to the 8th edition BRB.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Correct me if Iam wrong: 7ed rulebook allows model with two pistols to fire twice in shooting phase, while 6ed rules forbids it.

Is there no multi-shot in 6th ed.  Remember that multi shot has a -1 to hit and I think long range for pistols came in 7th (though that might have been 8th.

azrael88 is correct. The 6th edition BRB 92 specified: "Note that although a model may carry several pistols, he may only shoot one in the Shooting phase,"  and there was nothing in the AB to override this. In the 6th/7th edition the range of a pistol was 8"  with no penalties for long range or moving & shooting. The 8th edition BRB changed that to 12" and added penalties for long range.

[azrael88]

Anyway, both books have their pros and cons. For now I stick to 6th as it is less complex and Iam not distracted by all those army list choices

[Warlord]

Fair enough! If you start feeling constantly outnumbered, consider making the switch. Have fun!

[Goosewheels]

Not sure if this should be a new post but I'm in the same situation of trying to revive some older WHFB with friends and was hoping to get some insight into editions.

I collected but didn't get to play nearly as much as I'd like, and I'm going to be taking point on the rules for our group. I was collecting the tail end of 5th, and then through 6th and 7th.

Was leaning 7th since it seemed to be a touch up on 6th more than an overhaul, and using 7e ABs where possible. I'm a touch more familiar with the rules of 6th but I'd love to get some thoughts on what is recommended. We'll have lists ranging from warband-250 to 2000-2500 point matches, with Empire, Orcs, Beasts, VC and Lizards as options - so all armies have a 7e book.

Any recs on what edition/ABs are best to use?

(If this is hijacking the thread, I can delete and make a new post!)

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Yes, the 7th edition BRB is more like 6.2.  The BRB as such was fairly balanced, but the later ABs of the 7th edition seemed to get increasingly overpowered. Of the ones you mentioned that really only applies to VC, which you may want to tweak a bit. 

[Goosewheels]

Thanks for the insight! That was my general sense, being halfway through the 7e RB, that it was more like small tweaks from 6.

I'll most likely be the one playing VC and definitely have the most experience with Warhammer in general of the group, so I would want to avoid being OP. The group is so new I want to aim for balanced and simple stuff to start.

Would you recommend just using 6e AB for VC to help with balance? I definitely collected what I have for them during 6e. We're also largely sticking to what models I have collected, with the odd proxy unit (silver helms for blood knights, e.g.) so we wont be able to wring every advantage out of a list.

Appreciate the help!

[commandant]

Balance is also something people worry about too much. One way of achieving balance is to change the objectives. For example a heroic last stand doesn't need balanced armies at all, just one to still be alive at the end of the 4th turn or sonething like that.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I do not think there is a problem with using the 6th edition VC Army Book, in particular since they had to use it for two years (7th edition BRB came out in 2006 and the VC Army Book in 2008).  There is also a 6th edition Errata/FAQ for VC that came out just before the 7th edition BRB. Do you have that?

[Goosewheels]

Great point about balance! I think in terms of point cost balance it's still handy, but definitely think that opens a lot of other opportunities up.

Especially with that timeline of releases I feel fine using 6th Ed book. I do not have the errata/FAQ though.

Really appreciate the insight. Very excited to get back into the game 

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

You can find the Errata/FAQ of the 7th ed BRB & the 6th edition VC AB here:

https://warhammer-board.de/attachment/29032-en-whfb-2006-errata-whfb-7th-pdf/

https://warhammer-board.de/attachment/48466-m2220025-warhammer-faq-part2-jan-2009-pdf/

https://warhammer-board.de/attachment/23730-en-2006-vampirecounts-faqs-pdf/