Topic: CORE UNITS WE ALL WAITED FOR

[peraturabo]

my suggestions:

halberds
human stats
halberd,light armour,handweapon
5 pts.
you always need to take one halberdier unit of 20 models minimum
for each 2 units,you can field one more hero choice,because the halberdiers need a strong character against the enemy 

spearmen
human stats
spear,light armor,handweapon,shield
5 pts.

swordsmen
swordsmen stats
handweapon,shield,light armour
6 pts.

handgunners
human stats
handgun,handweapon
8pts.
special guns for the champion are for 5 points each
free musician

crossbowmen
human stats
crossbow,handweapon
8 pts.
free musician

knights
+2 point costs
rest the same
doesn´t count to the minimum of core

huntsmen
skirmish
human stats
8 pts.
longbow,handweapon
5+ unit size

free company
4pts.
human stats
2 handweapons,greatweapon
+1 pts. per model,pistol
cannot have detachements
LD 6

this would be my suggestions for core

what you think about?

[Captain Tineal]

I don't like being forced to take a unit of Halberdiers.  Being forced to take certain units does nothing for an Armybook.  Look at Ogre Kingdoms, they are saddled with such restrictions, and it greatly hurts the army.

I also don't think the changes you made to the Knights are necessary, and would force some people to purchase infantry they don't want for their Cav lists.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Also Empire cavalry aren't worth another 2 points.

They're okay, but stacked up against other cavalry they just aren't that good.

Knights of the Realm, with their various boosts, are only 24 points and they have a free champion.

[peraturabo]

ok,maybe that was a bit too much of trying of bring halberds back 
i tried to make knights more expensive,so the infantry choices,so also halberds, would become more attractive

[Freman Bloodglaive]

But people don't choose cavalry over infantry because of cost. They choose them because cavalry are effective and infantry aren't.

People choose swordsmen over halberds and spears because they have WS4 (meaning that other armies like Elves and Dwarves hit on 4s instead of 3s) and have a 4+ armour save in combat. Since Empire infantry will seldom get the charge their main focus is staying alive to break the enemy with combat resolution. Swordsmen provide that survivability.

Strength 4 means nothing if you won't survive to use it. That's why all the posts about halberds have tried to enhance their survivability. Unfortunately they've tended to focus on specific changes (like heavy armour) which couldn't be applied to halberds without logically going to all state troops (in which case swords win again) or ward saves which are really unjustifiable.

A better change would be to go into the fluff and say that swordsmen are the standard troop of the Empire (it fits with their improved stats) and halberds are often found in detachments.

[peraturabo]

i agree 

but what do you others think about the rest?

[iatroblast]

...for each 2 units,you can field one more hero choice,because the halberdiers need a strong character against the enemy  ...

LOL    Sure they do. But we have shooting (cannons) to make up for this (if we can fight Chaos units like equals...then...what's the point of choosing humans? We should overcome our combat weakness with something different)
That suggestion reminded me the Regiments of Renown though: 1 unit-1 hero hm..That could be a fair rule for the army of Middenheim or Kislev, for e.g
Now that I'm thinking of this, we could hire better Champions with different equipment than the rest of the unit (Halberds could afford a  champion with heavy armour, 2 attacks, Great Weapon or Shield, Crossbow and common magic items up to 25 points... Just a thought..)

I agree with everything else, including +2 points for knights and cheaper State Troops with default shields. Pistols are pretty useful for Free Companies, considering that they cannot be supported by detachments. I'd suggest that they could choose between Pistols for +2pts though, or throwing knives for +1pt
How's that?

I liked the fact that you tried to boost our forces without using obvious or overpowered rules

[der Hurenwiebel]

good points about the reason why swords men are taken over halberds, so why not give WS4 to halberds as an option? 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Although technically I think it's justified... it's a swing away from 4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 6+ as the default stats of humans. Only a few elite units in a Empire army (and swordsmen of course) gain the same fighting ability as dwarves. To be honest, although it would make Halberdiers more likely to be taken, it just feels wrong.

Let's face it, it's a tough thing to fix.

If we alter the stats we change the nature of Empire, but if we don't alter them they'll never be taken.

If we took the handweapon/shield save out of the main rulebook, and then gave Empire the option of heavy armour on infantry we'd have 4+ save spears and swords, and 5+ halberdiers. Swords would still be better, but the bonus strength of halberds, combined with the improved save, might see them used more often.

[der Hurenwiebel]

hmm. how bout then a special two handed weapon parry rule, that works like the weapon and shield armour bonus, given at the army level, so chaos knights can't have it and only certain unit types can have it like halberds and possibly great swords as part of an a la carte build suite.  does that work for you?

[Hermux]

Maybe a bonus to their as if they fight in 2 ranks? They second rank can poke at the opponent but their halberds are, in the fightning, not effective enough to really wound someone.
maybe -1 ws for the opponent because he is busy defending himself/+1 as for the halbedier because he has more time to get his defense up?

[Derek Contyre]

Dont bring in any thing about modifying weapon skills and or to hits.

Give the halberdiers heavy armour options, this goes round for all state troops, makes them more expensive but its personal choice, swordsmen will get a 3+ save which isn't too bad, maybe we counter this by not making them state troops?

[peraturabo]

sorry,but thats stup...not so good imo

[Derek Contyre]

What is stup?

[Perius]

Making Swordsmen not State Troops...

No, I think that the answer lies more in improving the Halberdiers as an option than in making any other troops type, Swordsmen, Knights or others, worse.

Improving the WS of Halberdiers certainly doesn't feel right; however, I believe that the Dogs of War list had a unit of WS4 Halberdiers, representing veteran troops.

Perhaps, then, it can come as an upgrade?


I can also see three other options.

(a) Swordsmen become Special Units. This represents their relative scarcity in the Imperial Army; then again, the Empire already suffers from too many good Special Units, so one more would probably be a bad idea.

(b) Decrease the points cost of Halberdiers. If Dark Elf Warriors can be 6 points, then Halberdiers can be 4. The two-point difference is enough to be noticed.

(c) Hit the points another way, and appeal to combat-resolutioners, by making the Halberdier command group free. On the battlefield this would lead to more Halberdier regiments, as well as nice Full Commands out at the head of more regiments. If combined with the above points cost drop, it could lead to Halberdiers returning to their prominence in the list in force.

[peraturabo]

sorry,i wanted to say stupid
but that´s not a nice way to tell anyone,that something is a bad idea imho

[Inarticulate]

My Paymaster's Bodyguard (Halberds, Heavy armour, WS4 Stubborn, Magic standard option) always find a place in my DoW army. They're excellent.

Though at 10pts per model they don't come cheap, but that's because of the oldness of the DoW list.

[Hermux]

I don't mind to be called stupid, were I live we're used to things far worse than "stupid"
Just tried to shout out something that didn't involve armour, it doesn't feel right, a lot of soldiers wearing (quite) expensive armour. I think that if the mainstay unit (halbediers) wear it, the others should wear it too. And I don't see 3+ as swordsmen (seems to dwarfish)

anyways, that's what I think, and I centainly don't have as much experience with warhammer as you guys do. I've only been around for 1 full empire edition now.

[Inarticulate]

If you think about it, every province is required to have a core of well trained Halberdiers. It would make sense that the electors would equip them well, they are the standing army, after all. Spearmen are more of a quickly trained levy, and Duellists as a rarer unit than the required Halberdiers and the cheap Spears.

[peraturabo]

i agree