home

Author Topic: Empire through the years - the nerfs, the boosts, the good, the bad and the ugly  (Read 12215 times)

Offline Xathrodox86

  • Members
  • Posts: 4500
  • He Who Fights Monsters
    • https://www.facebook.com/michalgorzanski
Was there one before 6th?

That would have been this fellow:



Looks goofy, but was actually pretty powerful.

I love this model, mainly because of my fondness of Dark Omen. Also don't forget the War Wagon. Why they didn't introduced it in later editions is beyond me.
Check out my wargaming blog "It always rains in Nuln". Reviews, rants and a robust dose of wargaming and RPG fun guaranteed. ;)

http://italwaysrainsinnuln.blogspot.com/

"Dude, that's not funny. Xathrodox would never settle for being a middleman."

Gneisenau

Offline Shadow_Zero

  • Members
  • Posts: 442
If i remember  correctly there was a 5th edd empire book relessed on the sneaky with some slight changes like the evy metal symbols  updated

On a slightly  different  note are you including all the web temporary rules like kf had a once per game max stats ability  10 for every stat so with mgic items he had 12 attacks doing silly amounts of damage? (He did cost 700pts)
I vaguely recall there was an updated 4th edition army book yes (but wouldn't call it a 5th edition army book).

I'm not familiar with the web temporary rules. Was that 6th edition era? If anyone can point them out I'll have a look into it.

Back in the days everyone seemed to like Dogs of War, for it's fluffiness in any case  :)
Too bad support got dropped pretty quick.

Offline knightofthelance

  • Members
  • Posts: 483
If i remember  correctly there was a 5th edd empire book relessed on the sneaky with some slight changes like the evy metal symbols  updated

On a slightly  different  note are you including all the web temporary rules like kf had a once per game max stats ability  10 for every stat so with mgic items he had 12 attacks doing silly amounts of damage? (He did cost 700pts)
I vaguely recall there was an updated 4th edition army book yes (but wouldn't call it a 5th edition army book).

I'm not familiar with the web temporary rules. Was that 6th edition era? If anyone can point them out I'll have a look into it.

Back in the days everyone seemed to like Dogs of War, for it's fluffiness in any case  :)
Too bad support got dropped pretty quick.

Yes, during 6th edition tons of SCs got released on the website. To make it more fun not every country had the same stuff on it's website. So you'd find KF on the UK site, but if you wanted the Everqueen you'd go to the Australian one.

Offline Shadow_Zero

  • Members
  • Posts: 442
And where do I find them now?  :)
(and what does SC stand for?)

Offline Warlord

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • Posts: 10713
  • Sydney, Australia
Special character.

I think its listed on the forum acronym guide too  :happy:
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Members
  • Posts: 9691
  • Attorney-at-RAW
If we are talking about the same thing (those pdf files), you could only field those SC with the agreement of your opponent. I should still have the rules somewhere for Gotrek and Felix, Thyrus Gorman, Marius Leitdorf, Valmir von Raukow and Aldebrand Ludenhof.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)

Offline psychichobo

  • Members
  • Posts: 1056
Oh Man, I have that old DoW book AND Ravening Hordes. I even had a copy of the WD Annual rules that updated the Dogs Special Characters for Ravening Hordes onwards - Lucrezzia Belladonna, Lorenzo Lupo, Marco Polo, and that guy with the Cannonball Mace.

I loved the Dogs of War theme, was really sad to see it unsupported. It was in part why I got into Ogre Kingdoms too.

I was at least grateful for Lietpold the Black to bring back some of that. A pity Forgeworld never worked on more Fantasy - I felt they had the most imaginative Special Characters.

Offline Xathrodox86

  • Members
  • Posts: 4500
  • He Who Fights Monsters
    • https://www.facebook.com/michalgorzanski
Oh Man, I have that old DoW book AND Ravening Hordes. I even had a copy of the WD Annual rules that updated the Dogs Special Characters for Ravening Hordes onwards - Lucrezzia Belladonna, Lorenzo Lupo, Marco Polo, and that guy with the Cannonball Mace.

I loved the Dogs of War theme, was really sad to see it unsupported. It was in part why I got into Ogre Kingdoms too.

I was at least grateful for Lietpold the Black to bring back some of that. A pity Forgeworld never worked on more Fantasy - I felt they had the most imaginative Special Characters.

I'm in the process of collecting as much DoW stuff as I can. I already have the rulebook, 7 Long Drong Slayers, a Galloping Gun, 5 Marksmen of Miragliano, Lorenzo Lupo, Mydas, and 5 Vespero's Boys. The models are gorgeous and their theme is great. I love me some mercs. :smile2:
Check out my wargaming blog "It always rains in Nuln". Reviews, rants and a robust dose of wargaming and RPG fun guaranteed. ;)

http://italwaysrainsinnuln.blogspot.com/

"Dude, that's not funny. Xathrodox would never settle for being a middleman."

Gneisenau

Offline Zygmund

  • Pure of Heart
  • Members
  • Posts: 2729
    • https://www.facebook.com/groups/288460758594334
-- -- 6th edition did some general reshuffling in most armies which saw some units renamed or otherwise changed about a little and some armies were carved up completely. Pretty much every army lost some units if nothing else because of the removal of generic monsters and swarms between editions.

On an army-by-army basis:
-- --
Empire: Lost Outriders, Foot Reiksguard, Kislev Winged Lancers, Kislev Horse Archers, Dwarfs, Halflings, Ogres, Steam Tank, War Wagon and the Halfling Hot Pot. Three Knightly Orders merged into a single unit list entry with upgrade option. Gained Free Company, Templar Grand Master, Engineer, Warrior Priests.
-- --

The change to the Greatswords was so big one could say the old GS was lost and a new unit added. I mean, GS changed from a regular "impact and die" detachment into an elite "impact and keep your ground" parent unit. The philosophy was completely changed, only the weapon giving the name for the unit was the same.

You could basically argue that the 6th ed GS were based on the 4th/5th ed Reiksguard, and the 4th/5th ed GS was completely lost.

Great thread!  :::cheers:::

-Z
Live in peace and prosper.

Offline Warlord

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • Posts: 10713
  • Sydney, Australia
Agree.
I miss those 4th/5th ed greatswords. Great models too
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Xathrodox86

  • Members
  • Posts: 4500
  • He Who Fights Monsters
    • https://www.facebook.com/michalgorzanski
Agree.
I miss those 4th/5th ed greatswords. Great models too

Generally these models were IMO better than the new ones. Had that nice historical vibe to them, without the skull fetish.
Check out my wargaming blog "It always rains in Nuln". Reviews, rants and a robust dose of wargaming and RPG fun guaranteed. ;)

http://italwaysrainsinnuln.blogspot.com/

"Dude, that's not funny. Xathrodox would never settle for being a middleman."

Gneisenau

Offline Warlord

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • Posts: 10713
  • Sydney, Australia
To be fair though, all Empire greatsword models are boss.

Except for the a few poses in the current plastic box (namely the legs wide apart and weird champion arms stance).
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline psychichobo

  • Members
  • Posts: 1056
Oh Man, I have that old DoW book AND Ravening Hordes. I even had a copy of the WD Annual rules that updated the Dogs Special Characters for Ravening Hordes onwards - Lucrezzia Belladonna, Lorenzo Lupo, Marco Polo, and that guy with the Cannonball Mace.

I loved the Dogs of War theme, was really sad to see it unsupported. It was in part why I got into Ogre Kingdoms too.

I was at least grateful for Lietpold the Black to bring back some of that. A pity Forgeworld never worked on more Fantasy - I felt they had the most imaginative Special Characters.


I'm in the process of collecting as much DoW stuff as I can. I already have the rulebook, 7 Long Drong Slayers, a Galloping Gun, 5 Marksmen of Miragliano, Lorenzo Lupo, Mydas, and 5 Vespero's Boys. The models are gorgeous and their theme is great. I love me some mercs. :smile2:

I've offered to trade a few for some reason - though I'm having second thoughts thanks to Mordheim. Tilean Miragliano Merc rules with actual Marksmen Models just works so well - Maximillian Damark has already gained +1 BS and shot down three people.

Pirazzo makes for a great Duellist too. And I've got Long Drong's Slayers, Menghil's Manflayers, Hengus and the Giants, Ricco's Republican Guard, and I used to have Tichi Huichi. Best of all is a Marco Columbo I found shattered and missing several pieces - converted him back to life with a Halberd, absolutely beaut.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 12:58:44 PM by Midaski »

Offline GamesPoet

  • Administrator
  • Members
  • Posts: 23770
  • Happy Spring! : )
The Marksmen, the Beseigers, and Borodino's cannon are the kind of figures that will be showing up for my fanatsy and historical games.

Although I know one type of figure that certainly won't be showing up for either.  :icon_wink: :icon_lol:

(The new WAoS figures.)
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 05:47:33 PM by GamesPoet »
"Not all who wander are lost ... " Tolkien

"... my old suggestion is forget it, take two aspirins and go paint" steveb

"The beauty of curiosity and creativity is so much more useful than the passion of fear." me

"Until death it is all life." Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra

Offline CarolineWellwater

  • Members
  • Posts: 396
(( I kinda like the look of the Alcantani, Brangaza's Besigers, Lucrettzia Belladonna, and Lumpin Croops Fighting Cocks myself... though I call mine "Gyr's Falconers".  Oddly, I also thought that Oglah Khan's Wolfboyz were pretty nifty looking too.

Another thing I loved about the Dogs of War was that it was so easy to have them be either Tilean troops or Imperial Troops.  It saved a bit of coin, when you could flesh out your Imperial Knights with Venators, or have your Alcantai just be another unit of Spearmen.

Lastly, I liked how the Dogs of War had their own built-in humor.  Seriously.  You know who leads the Alcatani?  Roderigo Del Monte.  Yeppers.  The Del Monte fruit company owns a merc unit ^_- ))

Offline Shadow_Zero

  • Members
  • Posts: 442
I still also wanted to break down the Warrior Priest through the years, so here we go!

9th Age
Preacher = 65p
Prelate = 90p


Blessings:
A model with this rule can cast the following three Bound Spells (Power Level 3), each once per magic phase. These Bound Spells are of type Caster's Unit and Augment, and duration Lasts One Turn.

-Volund’s Blessing:
Target unit may reroll failed to wound rolls in Close Combat.

-Ullor’s Blessing
Target unit gains Ward Save (5+) against Close Combat Attacks.

-Sunna’s Blessing
"Target unit gains Flaming Attacks. All enemy units in base contact with one
or more targets of this spell , when the spell is cast suffer D6 Strength 4 hits with Flaming Attacks."


8th
Warrior Priest = 65p
Arch Lector = 100p


Battle Prayer:
Battle Prayers are innate bound spells (power level 3). If a Battle Prayer is successfully cast on a Regimental Unit, any of its Detachments within 3" are also targeted by the spell.

-Hammer of Sigmar:
The Warrior Priest and his unit re-roll all failed to Wound rolls in close combat until the start of the next friendly Magic phase.

-Shield of Faith:
The Warrior Priest and his unit have a 5+ ward save against all Wounds inflicted in close combat until the start of the next friendly Magic phase.

-Soulfire:
The Warrior Priest and his unit gain the Flaming Attacks special rule until the start of the next friendly Magic phase. In addition, when cast, all enemy models in base contact with the Warrior Priest suffer a Strength 4 hit. Undead, Nehekharan Undead and models with the Daemonic special rule in base contact suffer a Strength 5 hit instead, with no armour saves allowed.


Divine Power:
Warrior Priests can channel power and dispel dice in the same manner as Wizards

Righteous Fury:
A Warrior Priest, and any unit he is currently in, has the Hatred special rule. However, other characters in the unit do not gain the Hatred special rule.



7th:
Warrior Priest = 90p
Arch Lector = 125p


Prayers of Sigmar:
Prayers are cast exactly like bound spells with a power level of 4 (Arch Lector = 2 prayers per turn, Warrior Priest = 1).

-Hammer of Sigmar:
The model can re-roll failed rolls to hit and wound. Remains in play.

-Healing Hand:
The model gets a 4+ ward save. Remains in play.

-Soulfire:
Can only be cast on the Priest himself. All enemy units in base contact with the Priest suffer D6 Strength 4 hits with no armour saves allowed. Undead, Daemon or Forest Spirit units suffer D6 Strength 5 hits with no armour saves allowed.

-Unbending Righteousness:
Can only be cast on the Priest himself. The Priest and any unit he joins is Unbreakable. If the Priest leaves the unit or is slain, the prayer will immediately cease to affect the unit. Remains in Play.


Blessings of Sigmar:
A Warrior Priest of Sigmar adds 1 dice to the Empire player's dispel dice pool during the enemy's magic phase, and an Arch Lector 2.

Righteous Fury:
The Priest and any unit he joins Hate all models in the enemy army, so long as he remains with the unit. This does not affect characters, who are more difficult to influence than the average soldier.


6th
Warrior Priest = 95p
Arch Lector = did not exist yet


Prayers of Sigmar:
Prayers are cast exactly like Bound spells, with a Power Level of 3. A Warrior Priest is allowed to use ONE prayer per Empire Magic phase.

-Hammer of Sigmar:
The model can re-roll failed rolls to wound. This Prayer lasts until it is dispelled or until the Warrior Priest attempts to cast another prayer. This Prayer has no effect on hits from magic weapons.

-Healing Hand:
The model is immediately healed of all the wounds it has suffered during the battle up to that moment.

-Soulfire:
Centre the large 5" template on the Warrior Priest. All Undead and Daemons hit by the template (work out which models are hit exactly the same way as you would do for a Mortar's hit) suffer a Strength 4 hit, with no armour save allowed. Soulfire can only be cast on the Warrior Priest, not on other models.

-Armour of Righteousness:
The models gets a 5+ Ward save. This Prayer lasts until it is dispelled or until the Warrior Priest attempts to cast another Prayer. This Prayer has no effect if the model already has a Ward save.


Blessings of Sigmar:
As long as a Warrior Priest is on the battlefield, he adds one dice to the Empire player's Dispel dice pool during the enemy's Magic phase.

Righteous Fury:
Warrior Priests and the unit they are with hate all models in any of the following armies: all Chaos, all Undead, all Skaven.



My thoughts:
I thought it was kinda fluffy that Righteous Fury was only for the Chaos, Undead and Skaven armies in 6th edition. Not complaining it accounts to all armies nowadays, but I like the fluff  :P

I also found it fluffy that there were prayers that remained in play, until another prayer was cast (nice to keep that ward save or re-roll for one or a few more rounds!)

And I kinda miss the healing wounds in 8th edition, since a Priest that heals, that's fluffy!

Soulfire got nerfed so much in 8th edition. I kinda like the idea of using a template as in 6th edition, though can't complain on hitting whole units as in 7th edition and 9th age! (but scratch my head most enemies get to have an armour save in 8th edition, I mean, it's divine powerrr!).

And perhaps a bit overpowered, but man, was it nice to have Hammer of Sigmar re-roll for both to hit and to wound!

And why is Shield of Faith only for close combat? You'd say a divine shield would also work for artillery and magic...

Offline Warlord

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • Posts: 10713
  • Sydney, Australia
You missed 5th ed - there was Volkmar on the war altar. Does he count for your purpose?
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline CarolineWellwater

  • Members
  • Posts: 396
(( A couple of things I miss:

Reiks Footknights.   I loved the idea of heavy infantry for The Empire.  4+ Armor Save, Strength 4, and Initiative 4.  Now we're stuck ho-hum Greatswords.

Knights with Initiative 4.  In 5th ed, we had 4 units that were almost identical.  Knights of the Blazing Sun, Knights Panther, Knights of the White Wolf, and Rieksknights.   One of the unexpected bonuses they had was Initiative 4.  It didn't come into play often in 5th... but it was unexpected when it did.

Winged Lancers.  I loved these guys.  An actual unit of medium cav!  Warhammer seems to be either heavy knights, or scouts... but thsee guys were medium cavalry!  Not to mention their Russian-Polish-Ukrainian look was pretty sweet too.

5th ed crossbows.  Crossbows who could have light armor and shields.  So, they did shooting okay, and could do melee in a pinch.

I also liked that Runefangs used to be able to be duplicated.  If memory serves,  the 5th ed book had cards for two runefangs.  They were cheap magic weapons that allowed for no armor save and 2x wounds on undead.

One thing I won't miss: our 1-would BSB in 5th, and useless champions.  If you wanted a champion in 5th, it was just a better idea to get a an Empire hero to lead that unit instead.  And you could get your heroes pistols.  While pistols sucked in 5th, they were a suprise.

Anyway,  just some quick thoughts. ))
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 01:39:43 PM by CarolineWellwater »

Offline scrubber

  • Members
  • Posts: 483
My nerf is buying 2nd hand knights or pistoliers. The horses never have tails.
Reiksguard foot knights never quite made sense to me. Twelve points compared to the mounted knight at 39. Means Barded horse and lance are 27points, but suppose you got 2+ instead of 4+ save.

Offline patsy02

  • Members
  • Posts: 5723
  • Moderator in charge of Gender Equality (Honorary)
Engineers have never been good. Now they are.
I agree with the inhumane treatment of animals.

Offline Warlord

  • Global Moderator
  • Members
  • Posts: 10713
  • Sydney, Australia
They were good in the beginning if 8th edition before we had our rulebook.
Quote from: Gneisenau
I hate people who don't paint their armies, hate them with all my guts. Beats me how they value other things over painting, like eating or brushing teeth.

Offline Fidelis von Sigmaringen

  • Members
  • Posts: 9691
  • Attorney-at-RAW
In fact, the rollover from 7th to 8th saw the best Engineer ever.
It is not enough to have no ideas of your own; you must also be incapable of expressing them.
Sex, lies and manuscripts: The History of the Empire as Depicted in the Art of the Time (10/07/16)