Topic: Rules Query: Theodore Bruckner's Hand of Judgement and Lower Ld Generals

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

This is the only place I have ever heard this argument.  It has never been brought up in any games or tournaments that I have attended.  I regularly play my Dwarf army and frequently take a Thane BSB (Ld 10) and Runesmith (Ld 9) as my characters.  Nobody has EVER batted an eye at it.  Even in tournaments.  If someone had an issue with it, I probably wouldn't play them because they would obviously be a rules-lawyer and a WAAC player.  Even if it is a "mistake" in their favor.  I play to have fun and that kind of nit-picking is just the opposite.

It is funny, how wanting to follow the rules (which are in fact clear in this instance) makes someone a rules lawyer and WAAC player, instead of the person who does not want to follow the rules. And I would highly be surprised, if it has not been discussed on other Warhammer fora. Certainly, shavixmir brought it up in Bugman's Brewery.

[carmaul]

I agree with FvS that by rules, having your general not having the highest LD is an illegal list.  I would still play against that opponent because breaking the rule does not give any advantage.

Warhammer is the default game.  If you want to play Storm of Magic, Triumph and Treachery, or End Times, you have to agree with your opponent before the game.   If I play a pickup game at a store, I am expecting them to bring a normal list unless the store/location is advertising a special game day (such as this Saturday being End Times day).

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Allow me to point out that it does give an advantage - otherwise, it would not have become part of the standard Dwarf AL. Dwarfs are going to take a Runelord/Runesmith anyway. So, you save at least 65 points by not taking a second Thane as your General.

[thorimm]

In the Dwarf case it does give an advantage. Following the rules you need more characters to have a general, BSB and okay magic protection, ie. two runesmiths. The extra points in the general aren't spend on more models on the field. I really think more models is better then an extra character. In fact, most Dwarf lists I see do not include a Ld10 character as general.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

The same is true for VC. The WK is a better BSB: he costs less, has 1T and 1W more than a Vampire, and cannot be the General anyway. By not following the rules, you save points again.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

I had a quick look at the threads where shavixmir raised the issue on Bugman's brewery, and many of the responses seem a catalogue of logical fallacies:

1. Argumentum ad hominem (the most prominent): WAAC, rules lawyer, and other invectives. Often combined with 2 & 3.
2. The Moral High Ground fallacy
3. Argumentum ad baculum: I will not play anyone like that
4. Argumentum e silentio: it has never been an issue before
5. Argumentum ad populum: we all play it like that
6. Argument from (personal) incredulity (I cannot imagine how this could be true, therefore it must be false)
7. Proof by assertion: repetition of arguments that have been refuted
8. Missing Middle Ground: some are apparently so stuck in the pensée unique, that they genuinely seemed to think shavixmir was arguing for the BSB to be the General.
9. Intentional fallacy: those that actually tried to argue on the basis of the rules had to admit that it is what the BRB says, but then asserted that obviously it was not intended as such. Why it would not be intended is then left unexplained.

I must admit that I was impressed by the (relative) calmness of shavixmir's responses, as he is not really known for a phlegmatic disposition.

Edit: since we are talking about Dwarfs, perhaps change the above to "the Rune ad hominem", "the Rune of the Moral High Ground" etc. 

[psychichobo]

Poor old Theodore. All he wanted was to punch some Chaos lackey in the face. He never expected all this bureaucracy...

[Marshal Martens]

This is one of the reasons I love this game, and the reason my wife is embarrassed to watch me play; she says my friends and I fight too much over the minutiae of the rules.

I think Fidelis is absolutely correct. I also think the RAI argument falls completely flat if you divorce your position from an advantage you wish to gain. It is every bit as likely, since we have no measure of intention, that these rules were meant to ensure that armies would be under the command of a bespoke general or would face a severe disadvantage.

It follows that an army led by a Runesmith would not be as effective a fighting force as one led by a seasoned commander.  The rules as written allow you to make a list that is commanded by more fluffy characters; they don't guarantee it will be as good.

[Vauln]

What happens if the BSB's Ld is raised above that of the General later in the game? Like if the BSB were to join a unit with the Banner of Discipline? Is that something that could happen? I realize this is not very likely but I am just wondering in case it does.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

You need to have a legal Army List at the start of the game. The game itself can and will change things afterwards - e.g. your core may drop well below 25%, but that does not matter for determining the legality of your Army List.

[Vauln]

Ah, makes sense. Thank you.

[Margrave of Kemperbad]

I checked BattleScribe to see if it would allow the Dwarf Thane BSB (ld 10) with Runesmith General (ld 9).
It was ok by BattleScribe. Could be the programs that do army list construction are allowing it erroneously to
which some have unsuspectingly used it.
Wonder if anyone else has checked (or would check) other programs to see if they allow this error also.
Thank You.

[SorenJ]

What happens if the BSB's Ld is raised above that of the General later in the game? Like if the BSB were to join a unit with the Banner of Discipline? Is that something that could happen? I realize this is not very likely but I am just wondering in case it does.

For the hell of it: What if the BSB carries the Banner of Discipline himself? Thus at the time of writing the armylist i.e. pre-game the BSB would already have higher Ld.

[Fidelis von Sigmaringen]

Given that the BRB does not specify "unmodified" (in the sense of "on the profile") Leadership, you would need to have a General that shares the highest Ld with that BSB - or simply not give the SoD to your BSB.