Topic: Flagellants; Yeay or Nay?

[Joasht]

Turns out I have 40 of them (bought them for a conversion idea many years ago, but never got around to it), but had them tucked away in a corner >_<

Looking at their rules they seem rather alright, but they seem to be far less favored than Greatswords. At least, thats the impression I get from briefly scanning a few threads, like the handbook.

What are your thoughts, and experiences on them?

Thanks!

[Thirsty Beaver]

Yeay!

I have put them in every list I've made since I got my empire. You can use them in a few ways, as speed bumps, flankers, reserves (I park them in the backlines by my WM's and wiz bunker). They are also great psychological unit. My friends hate them because they don't want to waste shooting on them when they are unbreakable so they will still be a nuisance (I managed to get 2 out of 14 into a 30-man zombie unit and I held it up for 2 full turns), but they don't want to let me choose my target to engage with them because they can still punch a hole in most things as long as they don't strike last against a large elite unit.

The only thing people have successfully done against me is bait charge them out of position because of frenzy. But to be honest, I clear they chaff and mine come from behind my lines, so they are dancing with a more expensive and worthwhile unit late game to avoid my 160 pt unit.

Love them

(that said, if you are facing elves, don't bother)

[MarkoV]

Vs Ogres, OnG, everything that has init 2 or less, go for them. Put em in horde, pray for reroll to hit and wound, and watch them do tremendous ammount of wounds. Turn 2 and after, pointles.

[Battlekruse]

Nay

I have not used my Flagellants at all in the 8th ed. They are packed away to more brighter or dire times.

In my opnion Games workshop made a huge mistake with the Flagellants. To be honest they should have toughness 4 in order to any use all. Then It could be a nice anvil unit.

[jaggedjimmyj]

Since we can't take them as core anymore I don't use them. As core I'd use them even though they are awfully overcosted.

[Boreas_NL]

Seriously?

Nay!

Overcosted... No longer Crazed (they can, and will, lose their frenzy)... No longer able to be taken as Core... Crappy Martyr rules... No longer Rare (they have to compete with much better Special units)...

Still, they are unbreakable...

[Thirsty Beaver]

Any of you nay-sayers actually tried them?

They aren't as effective as Demigryphs, but in low point games they can fill a pretty nice roll (if you don't mind not playing the same list every time).

Spike strips in high point games, backline reserves in low point games, and horde against dwarves/low int.

They are playable if you want to try them, but they are not optimal.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

A clear and resounding perhaps. A unit of 40 or two units of 15-20 can indeed be rather somewhat alright, sometimes, or not so. The price isn't far off from what you pay for 2 S5 attacks in other armies. Frenzy and Ld 7 however is not so hot, and even 40 are a fragile glasscannon that will attract missile fire, and will get seriously hurt even by archers - the emphasis is on glass.

The story about two Flaggellants holding out for two turns is the exception to the rule. That's in fact less likely then a cannon holding out for so long.

[The Peacemaker]

Still, they are unbreakable...

10-15 in a conga line to make your flanks unbreakable is probably their best use. lol.

Any of you nay-sayers actually tried them?

Nay!

Problem with Empire army is that demi-gryphs are 15-20points undercosted depending on which FAQ you use. (hatred or toughness). So everything else in our army becomes overcosted.
Flaggies can pack a punch. If you are going to take a unit of 40 then I wouldn't leave home without a life mage to cast the toughness spell and the occasional regrowth. 440 points for the unit thats pretty crappy after the first round of combat. The enemy has to kill them to a man because of unbreakable but at toughness 3, no armour it doesn't take long.

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Don't forget they must martyr themselves. Two guys holding out for two turns is exceptionally unlikely even if there was no enemy trying to hit them (or only Zombies).

[kwest]

They bring a lot of 'fun' to lounge games! Worth painting for that reason alone.

Flails work well in building assaults where it is always the first turn of combat.

I often use mine as suicide bombers; they charge forwards, try to put a couple of wounds on an important enemy character and then die. It's how they'd want to be used!

If you can race them in to the enemy general or BSB early on it allows you to pin down their bubble, making them reluctant to move other troops forwards which takes the pressure off the empire ranged options.

[Arfa]

I think the martyr rules are their biggest downside. Inflicting damage rather than just throwing themselves on their swords means you cant up their survival with flesh to stone or something else, they lose their bonus' in combat. If it was still just D3 dying it'd be a lot better, right now it's pretty funny imagining themselves trying to kill themselves but a wizard is keeping them alive, they'd HATE that

Arfa

[Joasht]

Thanks for the replies thus far!

While I would admit there is a certain temptation to having a big, fat block just for the fun of it, I was thinking that they might not be bad as counter-attack units; small units that are held back to add some hitting power to whatever your anchor is. I'm not sure how feasible it would be in a regular game though.

[Andse]

10-15 in a conga line to make your flanks unbreakable is probably their best use. lol.

Pretty much their only use, as far as I'm concerned.

[zifnab0]

Problem with Empire army is that demi-gryphs are 15-20points undercosted depending on which FAQ you use. (hatred or toughness). So everything else in our army becomes overcosted.

If Demigryphs are undercosted then it is by no more than 10 points.  15-20 points is far too much.  If Demigryphs were 70+ points per model it would be stupid to take them.

But I don't think that the Empire list is undercosted.  The cheapest must-have units are Halberds and Demigryphs.  Even with those, we're not a top tier list.  Among the new books High Elves and Warriors of Chaos are still on top.

[Half-Light]

What do you guys think is the ideal size for a unit of flagellants? They need to be able to take some wounds + tank their special rule, but since they are overpriced you don't want to commit too much...

Obviously it's going to depend on the role you attribute to your unit, but generally speaking, without it being a horde, while still packing some punch, I'm thinking around 15, since you don't really care about the ranks.

[commandant]

But I don't think that the Empire list is undercosted.  The cheapest must-have units are Halberds and Demigryphs.  Even with those, we're not a top tier list.  Among the new books High Elves and Warriors of Chaos are still on top.

The cheapest undercosted must have is the steam tank which is about 50-70 points undercosted.

[The Peacemaker]

If Demigryphs are undercosted then it is by no more than 10 points.  15-20 points is far too much.  If Demigryphs were 70+ points per model it would be stupid to take them.

3 demi = 174points.
That's 9 wounds
3 strength 6 attacks (charge)
9 strength 5 attacks(with AP)
Basically 12 attacks at strength 6ish

9 Inner Circle knights = 225
9 Wounds
9 strength 6 attacks  (charge)
5-6 horse attacks at strength 3
Attacks are roughly equal to demi's once you adjust for strength

So by these rough calculations the demi grpyhs should be 75 points each based on wounds and attacks. obviously there is some give and take with points ratio's since demi-gryphs are in special selection, can be one-shoted, etc... At toughness 3 I'd say they were 10pts undercosted.
But now they are toughness 4.... lack hatred for their good mount attacks. Which is why I now say 15pts.
Anyway, just thought I'd point out where I got my numbers from.

10-15 in a conga line to make your flanks unbreakable is probably their best use. lol.

Pretty much their only use, as far as I'm concerned.

On a more serious note.
I was actually thinking about this and I remember posting something last year about flagellants.

If you play scenarios with buildings, flagellants become very good. For holding or assaulting a building. Mainly because there is no protracted combat so you get the flail bonus every time! heheheheh. Most people don't realize this because most people don't play watchtower and/or treat buildings as impassible. If you get toughness buff on them then they won't martyr but you can keep a war alter close by to give hatret.

Blood and Glory scenario(the one with the banners) is also a good battle for them since victory points don't count. Flaggies at 11pts a piece become a very expensive throw away unit!!!
And them being a unit that usually dies is a big detractor to taking them in small units.

So tactically on paper: watchtower, blood and glory is when flagellants shine.

[Thirsty Beaver]

Don't forget they must martyr themselves. Two guys holding out for two turns is exceptionally unlikely even if there was no enemy trying to hit them (or only Zombies).

First combat they only had 1 martyr attack and it failed to wound. Zombies caused no wounds. Second combat 1 Martyr wound (down to 1 flagellant), no wounds from zombie. 2nd Turn no Martyr wound, zombies killed last guy.

Not two full turns I suppose, but it robbed them of 2 turns of movement! Which is what I wanted. Also really lucky/unlucky Martyring. And yes, Martyr is their worst rule. I could look past their leadership, frenzy, and points cost if it wasn't for martyr.

[Noght]

10-15 in a conga line to make your flanks unbreakable is probably their best use. lol.

Pretty much their only use, as far as I'm concerned.

On a more serious note.
I was actually thinking about this and I remember posting something last year about flagellants.

If you play scenarios with buildings, flagellants become very good. For holding or assaulting a building.

Back when Flagellants were Core, this is true, now not so much.  Check out the Horde Battle Rep vs OK, never made it to tower, like auto win.

FYI:  Conga lines are cheesy, just say no!

[Lord Solar Plexus]

Flaggies at 11pts a piece become a very expensive throw away unit!!!

Let's not even get me started about the Flaggies at 12 pts a piece! 

[Flaggies suffered no wounds]

You already mentioned that. It's the exception to the rule, not an argument to why they're great or even decent. Every other unit could potentially be on its last leg and suffer no wounds in a given situation, roll snake eyes or whatnot.

[Thirsty Beaver]

Flaggies at 11pts a piece become a very expensive throw away unit!!!

Let's not even get me started about the Flaggies at 12 pts a piece! 

[Flaggies suffered no wounds]

You already mentioned that. It's the exception to the rule, not an argument to why they're great or even decent. Every other unit could potentially be on its last leg and suffer no wounds in a given situation, roll snake eyes or whatnot.

All that post was meant to do was expand on how they held zombies for two turns.

Martyr is an awful ability. That said, the fact that a depleted Flagellant unit can still hold against the odds should demonstrate why they aren't completely pathetic? Greatswords can do it too (without killing themselves), and even better against zombies.

I still say run 'em. In competitive play they are only usable as small units, maybe in reserve, I'm not sure. I play them for fun because I like them

[Lord Solar Plexus]

I fully realize what your post was intended to convey, it's just that the reason why the held is glaringly obvious - you were lucky.  If that example demonstrates anything, it is that sometimes the dice are with you.

I don't think they're completely pathetic tbh. Swordmasters for example aren't all that much more resilient and yet still a good unit. On the other hand, 2 S5 attack Marauders (flail, MoK) cost just about the same, are core, could take a banner, and generally threaten stuff. Both choices are often not seen because there is something better, and that's no different in this case, but just like small supporting units of SM Flagellants could indeed fill such a role, so I'm certainly not trying to berate anyone who takes them.

[Saxious]

I would have to say Yeay.

They have served as expendable but useful units in my army, often slowing down my enemy's elite soldiers and denying them the opportunity to charge me from the flanks. I've never had a 2'500 ++ point battle though I could imagine that they would become a waste of point for such battles, though for 1'500 points and below, anywhere between 10-20 flagellants worked great for me.

[mr chumley warner]

The crazies have no place in a sane mans list.

Halberds, Chickens, IC Knights, Steam Tanks, but say nay to the crazies~!

They are not good enough to be a priority choice over the above and other units.